Association Forum - clogged carb on new Honda

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

clogged carb on new Honda

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

Page: of 2

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

Member Avatar

USA
1916 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/01/2003 : 09:00:17

Hi folks.

Well shame on me for ignoring the advice of this list. My new Honda is now in the shop (I can't wait for the bill)

After laying out for 6 weeks post knee surgery I found that it was almost impossible to start my 2003 Honda 8 hp extra long shaft electric start motor. It's a good thing I have a new group 27 battery.

The technician said that the Honda has a starting jet and it's probably clogged. He pulled out a pocket knife looking device from his pocket with various sized wires on it and sail all you have to do is push this wire through the jet. Great I said. I want one of those tools and could he show me how to do it in case I'm stranded. He said I couldn't as the starting jet is inside the running jet, which is inside the carb, and you have to completely disassemble the carb to get at it, then you need a carb gasket kit.
You think those engineers at Honda could have come up with something better.

So now I guesse I should run a better mix of fuel stabilizer in my tank. I added some, but less than the recommended mix. I guesse I should add an inline filter.

Any other advice? This time I'll do it.

Let this be a lesson to me, and to all other outboard motor owners, especially Honda owners.

Now I'm trying to work my way through my county government's maze of telephone machines to find out how and where to dispose of my gas. They aren't making it easy to be responsible, but I guesse that's their job.

Thanks

Frank Gloss
89WK/TR

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2003 : 09:07:57

To get rid of your old gas(that's if its just straight gas and not a fuel/oil mix), why don't you just throw it in one of your vehicles?

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d904b3127cce9f7cd9ffdf1d0000003010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

Edited by - dlucier on 10/01/2003 09:09:23

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2003 : 09:14:30

I just got a call from my Honda guy and he said that I had water in my carb bowl, and then it rusted out the needle jet.

Shame on me for forgetting to shut the vent on my tank

Frank Gloss
89WK/TR

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2003 : 09:33:43

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I just got a call from my Honda guy and he said that I had water in my carb bowl, and then it rusted out the needle jet.

Shame on me for forgetting to shut the vent on my tank<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Why would not shutting the vent on the tank induce more moisture into the tank?

It would seem that more moist humid air would be sucked into the tank while running the motor with the vent open than with the vent open while the motor is shut down.

Maybe you got a batch of bad gas. Would using a product like Dry-Gas help in preventing moisture in the fuel system for an outboard?

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d904b3127cce9f7cd9ffdf1d0000003010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

Edited by - on

RoofRoof
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
186 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2003 : 10:27:56

GEEZ!!! I have your same exact motor and have had numerous problems exactly as you describe. I've spent over $700 in the first 8 months of owning that motor.

I always used fresh gas, and the good stuff. But, I still had the problem.

Removing the carb and cleaning out the jet is no easy task. I've seen it done 3 or 4 times, but I'd still rather not have to do it. Lots of small parts and hanging out over the water where one could drop in, etc.

I now still use the best gas I can get, and always fresh....but now add Stabil stabilizer and Techron to the gas. So far so good. Although I haven't run my motor for a month now. Who knows how bad it will be.

Note that there is a slow running jet, and a fast running jet. So, my theory is to let the motor idle awhile so that the techron can clean out the slow running jet.

You might do a search for threads about this. I've submitted several informative posts about my problems in the past on this site.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2003 : 11:35:19

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Why would not shutting the vent on the tank induce more moisture into the tank?

It would seem that more moist humid air would be sucked into the tank while running the motor with the vent open than with the vent open while the motor is shut down.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
The open vent allows a constant exchange of outside and inside air as the tank "inhales and exhales" with temperature changes. When the inside air cools at night, moisture condenses on the walls of the tank, and then runs down to the bottom, covered by the gasoline so the water can't evaporate. Over a season, that can accumulate, even as you refill the tank. A better preventative than stabilizer is a "dry gas" type of additive--an alcohol compound that mixes with the water (or melts gas line ice up north) and helps it to pass through the fuel system as a fuel of sorts. Another measure that can help to minimize condensation is refilling your tank frequently. Either way, close the vent when not running the engine, and then REMEMBER TO OPEN IT. <img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle>

Water can also accumulate in the fuel hose over time--it should be emptied at least at the end of the season to eliminate stale gas and possible water. The Honda dealer here flushes the tank and hose as part of his winterizing routine.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

deastburn
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
334 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2003 : 12:18:53

If the gas tank is kept in the lazarette, the cycle of warming and cooling would more likely result in condensation on the outside of the tank, not the inside. This is particularly true if the tank is kept topped off. (In New England, we always fill up our cars before a really cold night--it helps prevent condensation and the frozen gas lines that can result). It seems possible that there is too little gas in your tank over a long period of time. Plastic gas tanks are also less susceptible to condensation problems than are metal ones.

The other possibility is that you got bad gas. These days that is pretty rare--all the filters and evaporative emissions recapture systems at the gas stations just don't leave much possibility for water to be transmitted.

Another possibility is that the corrosion was caused not by water, but by alcohol in the gas. A couple of local discount gas chains have been fined megabucks for adding more than the permitted amount of alcohol to their gasoline (alcohol is cheaper and boosts profits). Alcohol can cause major problems in modern engines--everything from injectors to rubber conduits can be corroded by alcohol.

As to used fuel, I just dump mine in the lawnmower or the car. Even if it is 50:1 oil-gas mix, it works fine, though I wouldn't do it all the time. Besides, gasoline here is $2.40 for regular, so dumping it is out of the question.

Dave on "Wood Duck" (#2616 - SR, FK)

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2003 : 17:36:33

Wow... this is scary stuff... just when you feel safe by running it dry... it rust because of the frigging alcohol.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/rr4.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruising Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

Raskal
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
162 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2003 : 18:04:25

My 1984 C25, which I purchased in November of '02, came with a 3-year-old Honda 9.9 4-stroke which had been lightly used. I had it stored indoors over the winter, put fuel winterizer in the tank, and had it serviced with an oil change before using it lightly, starting late in the season in August.

In spite of all this, IT NEVER STARTS ON THE FIRST PULL. IT NEVER STARTS WHEN I'M IN TROUBLE. IT'S WAY TOO HEAVY FOR ME TO POSITION PROPERLY WHEN THERE'S WAVE ACTION.

In other words, it isn't the right tool for the job, even if it's a Honda.

So, I'm anxious to hear any stories from people who have replaced this @#$ machine WITH A MOTOR THEY REALLY LOVE! What's a good outboard for our C25?

Start a new string if you want. I'll be looking for it...

Rich Kokoska, 1984 C25 "Coolatta", Groton, Conn.

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2003 : 19:50:34

I picked up my Honda today. 340 bucks. Mostly for labor. But that was to fix my carb, adjust valves, change all fluids, tune up etc. The tech did show me how to drain the carb bowl easily and how to adjust the idle. He said my carb bowl was completely full of water.
Here in the southeast we have lots of humidity. I guesse being lazy in not closing the vent after motoring and leaving the boat at the slip did it. Hard lesson learned

I did unload the 108 lb motor from my truck, put it on my homemade carrier made out of a hand truck, take it down to the slip, and mount the motor on the boat all by myself. The Garhauer lifting davit is worth it's weight in gold.

This winter when I have to pull my boat out of the water I'll take some pics and post them so you can see my setup of lifting davit, Garelick motor mount, Marinco twist lock electrical plug, and that beast of a motor

Frank Gloss
89WK/TR

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2003 : 20:56:47

Re. Honda o/b's.

I told ya' so! <img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>

Frank, I'm sorry you're having that trouble. I put both a carb cleaner and dry gas in my tank. More than recommended. And, except for the round the lake race w/e, it has started in 8-10 pulls. However, I haven't been to the boat for probably two months. I've had some digestive problems that I was reluctant to get out on the lake, so haven't sailed for fear of an attack. Then when I might have been ready, there was either no wind, or 25-30 ish winds.

I expect to have some trouble this w/e maybe I'll get a sail in, before taking it to the marina for haul out.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2003 : 06:18:33

When my mechanic demonstrated my motor for me he barely pulled on the cord and it fired right up. I have always been able to start it by barely touching the starter motor.

The water in the gas was not Honda's fault. However, weighing a ton, and having an inacessable carb jet is their fault.

I don't know of any other 4 stroke with my features that weigh less though.

Frank Gloss
89WK/TR

Edited by - on

matsche
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
280 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2003 : 07:42:21

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I don't know of any other 4 stroke with my features that weigh less though.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

[url="http://www.nissanmarine.com/products/98_4.html"]Nissan 9.8hp[/url] will save you about 20 lbs.

John Matsche 1985 TR/FK #5171

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2003 : 10:00:20

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I don't know of any other 4 stroke with my features that weigh less though.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

[url="http://www.nissanmarine.com/products/98_4.html"]Nissan 9.8hp[/url] will save you about 20 lbs.

John Matsche 1985 TR/FK #5171

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
I have one on order!

<img src="http://members.cox.net/fhopper/Catalina25/sigbow.jpg" border=0>Frank and Martha in Wichita KS. Lake Cheney

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2003 : 18:14:51

In my opinion.... the one item that is a deal breaker for the Tohatsu/Nissan is through the hub exhaust in reverse.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/rr4.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruising Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

3072 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2003 : 19:13:51

Late to the fray here... but a couple comments anyway.

Techron is great stuff for degumming and cleaning carbon. I don't put much stock in most additives, but this one really works. (IMHO)

Keep your fuel tank nearyly FULL, especially during extended storage. Less air = less condensation = less water.

I think a lot of the issues with the newer engines are due to pollution law compliance. It's really tough to make a carburator run clean and I think the engineers are pushing the envelope to keep the EPA happy. Tiny jets, complicated design = troubles.

The real answer is fuel injection, but that's going to be darn tough on a small outboard without making it even heavier than it already is.

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2003 : 20:08:35

80 lbs for a 9.8 Nissan, wow. Of course that is the weight of the short shaft manual start motor. Not what I want on my boat.
their alternator is only 6 amps too, and that is probably measured at full speed. At idle it is probably way less.
Their extra long shaft is unavailable until 2004
A short shaft manual start Honda is in this weight range too.
I wonder how much an extra long shaft (Nissan's shaft is 2.5" shorter) with electric start is?
I spent lots of time comparing specs apples to apples before I bought mine. Of course nothing is as expensive as a Honda too.

Everything in life is a compromise

Frank Gloss
89WK/TR

Edited by - on

RichardG
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2003 : 23:27:42

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> an extra long shaft -- Nissan's shaft is 2.5" shorter <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Per the specs, maybe. But since companies don't appear to use the same definitions of those specs, I think the jury is still out.

Example: I took a tape measure and determined my (very reliable) 1985 Suzuki long shaft (6 hp, 2 stroke) is 20" per the normal definition (top of mounting bracket where it goes over the board/transom to the cavitation plate). Then at Boaters World I measured a new Tohatsu long shaft (6 hp, 4 stroke) -- 22.5" per the same normal definition, even though the spec says it's only 20". Extrapolation would indicate that the extra long shaft will be 27.5".

Maybe Frank could clarify things when he picks up his 9.9.

As you cannot buy a new 2-stroke in California any more, I haven't been able to measure one, so I don't know if you get the same 2.5" "free" on those Tohatsu's.

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d725b3127cce907c1ad9acaf0000001010" border=0>

RichardG 81 C25 SR/FK "Sanity"

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 10/03/2003 : 00:34:38

The Honda Classic 8 has that best weight it seems.. its long shaft is 22.5 inches and weighs 79lbs. The Classic 8 is a very proven motor and produces great thrust in reverse as it does not exhaust thru the hub. It gets excellent fuel economy, starts very easily without electric start (it was never produced with it). Has a five amp alternator (probably at near full throttle). This is the motor that Honda dropped when it came out with the 8/9.9 combo but re-introduced this year. It is available. It has ample power for a 25 footer. I would still be using it... but had to go to a xls shaft. Unfortunately, the Classic 8 is not available in xls.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/rr4.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruising Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

matsche
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
280 Posts

Response Posted - 10/03/2003 : 07:35:06

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Per the specs, maybe. But since companies don't appear to use the same definitions of those specs<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

You're right. According to the Nissan web site, they measure from the lip of the bracket to the cavitation plate instead of from the top of the transom. Thus, you have to add 2.5" to their specs to make sense.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>that is the weight of the short shaft manual start motor<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Good point. An online manual's not available for this engine yet, so the exact weight's hard to find. If you extrapolate from their other engines, then you have to add about 14 lbs to get the estimated weight of the x-long shaft elect start. (if I'm doing my metric conversions right!)

John Matsche 1985 TR/FK #5171

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/03/2003 : 18:32:18

Nissan/Tohatsu fans might want to check Defender's "Anapolis Boat Show prices" at http://www.defender.com/email_promo.html . Don't know whether the longer shafts or electric starters are available.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 10/03/2003 18:33:16

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 10/03/2003 : 23:34:46

I have a Tohatsu 9.8 xls odered for the new boat. The factory rep told me the shaft length is 28". The cost with elec. start and alternator is $2250. They orginally told me delivery would be in Nov., but now everyone is talking Jan./Feb. I hope my Nov. date is the correct one.

Frog and The General
<img src="http://us.f2.yahoofs.com/users/3f514bcf_339f/bc/boats/__tn_Pretty+Penny.jpg?bc2LWU_AhL8DufLw" border=0>
79 Wing #1166
Pretty Penny

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2003 : 08:15:48

What is Techron? Is it already added at the refinery, or can you add it yourself?

Frank Gloss
89WK/TR

Edited by - on

RoofRoof
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
186 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2003 : 09:13:32

Techron is a fuel additive. It is owned by Chevron Corp. Chevron gasoline supposedly has some in it already, but I doubt enough to really make a difference. You can buy it by the bottle, either 12 or 20 ounce in Walmart, K-mart, most auto parts stores, etc. I buy mine by the case online and the price is more like $7.50 per 20 ounce bottle versus the $9.50 in the store.

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2003 : 09:14:02

Talked to Nissan dealer yesterday about the 9.8 xls with electric start, list price was 2441, which is listed on the spec sheet linked above. He quoted me 2150. Not available yet, but supposed out by spring.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 10/07/2003 : 08:14:35

Well I remounted my heavy Honda back on the boat while it was at the dock by myself. Cleaned out the gas tank (disposed of the fuel at the hazardous waste facility) cleaned out the hose. Added fuel stabilizer.
I barely touched the starter and it came alive.
Life is good

Frank Gloss
89WK/TR

Edited by - on

Page: of 2

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.