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leak from keel

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twinws
Deckhand

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USA
13 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/27/2013 : 09:17:29

I have a cat -25 swing keel and last evening I asked someone whom I though was a saior to lower my keel. He cranked the handle many times and now I have two problems. First the boat is taking on water. There was no leak prior to his handling of the winch. Second the winch will not lock, so when you crank it up the handle will spin wildly if not secured. I have a shallow slip so the keel must be up. I assume that is a winch issue. But I am concerded where the water is coming in Any thoughts would be appreciated. As a new sailor I have learned two things: Just because someone lives on a boat like your does not mean he has a clue how to work it. Second, until I know for sue I will do it myself. Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

Life is simple, just add water!

Edited by - on

sailboat
Navigator

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USA
149 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2013 : 09:43:11

Take a look at the hose through which the keel cable is routed. There should be two hose clamps where the hose overlaps the fiberglass "tube" at the hull. Check the hold back fitting on the winch. It is either not positioned properly or missing.

Edited by - on

sailboat
Navigator

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USA
149 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2013 : 11:19:20

I re read your post. I don't know what version/model Cat 25 you have but also check for damage around the keel trunk.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2013 : 12:03:12

Were you on board when he lowered the keel? Did the winch perhaps go into a spin, allowing a near-free-fall then? The probable location for damage if this happened would be the aft edge of the keel box at the forward part of the trunk, which the head of the keel will impact in a fall. Another spot is the bottom forward of the trunk, where the forward edge of the keel can hit.

Edited by - on

twinws
Deckhand

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USA
13 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2013 : 14:12:17

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 Were you on board when he lowered the keel? Did the winch perhaps go into a spin, allowing a near-free-fall then? The probable location for damage if this happened would be the aft edge of the keel box at the forward part of the trunk, which the head of the keel will impact in a fall. Another spot is the bottom forward of the trunk, where the forward edge of the keel can hit.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That is exactly what happened. Would there be any visible proof I could see from inside the boat? Is there a way to comfirm this is the cause? Thank you!!

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2013 : 19:38:49

Dry everything around the trunk as much as possible and watch for the source. There may be visible cracks, but not necessarily. How long does it take to get water in the bilge after you dry it? Also, what interior layout do you have?

Edited by - on

twinws
Deckhand

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USA
13 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2013 : 20:52:44

[quote]Originally posted by Dave5041
 Dry everything around the trunk as much as possible and watch for the source. There may be visible cracks, but not necessarily. How long does it take to get water in the bilge after you dry it? Also, what interior layout do you have?

I have a 1978 Cat-25 with the telescoping dinette table and an L type setee on the port side. The bilge pumps is located in the bow setee compartment, which seems high in the boat for my untrained eye.
I inspected the fitting where the cable goes into the trunk via the hose section and did detect a leak at connection between the fiberglass and hose. There were no hose clamps for it had been repaired with tape and some type of fiberglass at least twice before.
From looking at it I would guess take I need to clean off the old repairs and do sometype of repairing myself. any Ideas would be appreciated.

Edited by - on

sailboat
Navigator

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USA
149 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2013 : 21:13:49

Get some hose clamps on that hose ASAP. Continue to monitor for leaks at that location and also the trunk area. If you can get it out of the water inspect the keel cable, keel cable fitting on tne keel, and the keel hangars that house the keel pivot pin all for integrity and obvious damage.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2013 : 22:29:33

And replace or repair the winch.

Edited by - on

twinws
Deckhand

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USA
13 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2013 : 04:35:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave5041
 And replace or repair the winch.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I took the ladder and winch off to get a better look at the area. There have been multiple repairs on this before. The volcano is all but gone and there have been previous attempts to rebuild it. Now it appears that there is a crack on either side of the trunk where the volcano used to be. The boat has been scheduled for a haul out. however I cannot get space for about two weeks. Is there any type of temporay repair I can to to at least stop the leak? I'll have to life the keel to move the boat for it is on the bottom of a shallow slip right now but first things first.
Thank you all for sharing your knowledge

Edited by - on

pfduffy
Captain

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USA
317 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2013 : 07:09:55

That is a bit of a pickle! The PO of my boat had the volcano effectively break away from the bottom of the hull. He was taking on so much water that he needed to have the boat hauled immediately. How is your bilge pump powered? I think you want to get her out of the water ASAP. Perhaps explain to the yard manager that there is a danger of her sinking in the slip.

You likely have 2 spots where you are taking on water - the volcano and from around the trunk. The PO fixed the volcano by grinding away to find clean fiberglass and laying in several layers of cloth. Catalina Direct gave good guidance and all of the stuff needed to do the job.

Edited by - on

twinws
Deckhand

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USA
13 Posts

Response Posted - 05/07/2013 : 18:20:18

Just wanted to give you guys an update. We got some plumbers putty to form a volcano around the hose. Had to add some rags for extra fill. It stopped most of the water from coming in. We then applied 4 tubes of p-11 epoxy, very gooey stuff. We were saved by a couple of ripped beer cozies to wrap around the volcano goo and shape it until it set up. It's not pretty but its holding, and I'm not touching it until I have to.
Time to fix the keel winch.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 05/07/2013 : 18:36:32

Read [url="http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_ID=558&ParentCat=108"]Catalina Direct's warning about the winch[/url]--it's a tricky piece of equipment. If I'd had one and it had misbehaved like that, I'd probably have replaced it--from them.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 05/07/2013 18:37:17

Tim M
1st Mate

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60 Posts

Response Posted - 05/08/2013 : 10:37:47

A new winch is not always the answer. I replaced my old winch as a matter of routine maintenance with one from them and it also did what you described. Catalina Direct had redesigned the winch - even though they looked almost identical - and the new placement of the ratcheting pawl caused a slight interference with the spring on it and a protruding original stair ledger mounting bolt. It would click a few times initially when cranked and then free-fall if not held onto. Luckily it was jacked up on the trailer and only had a foot of up and down movement. Once I diagnosed the problem I removed the winch, turned around the stair ledger bolt and everything's worked fine ever since. If there's no interference with the pawl on your winch and it clicks fine then the problem is in the clutch/brake and replacement is best - although it is possible to replace/reface the disks in there. With the leak issues around the cable tube I hope you're aware of the turning-ball on a shaft that is towards the bottom of the tube and whose purpose is to keep the cable from sawing through the hull as the keel drops down and the attachment point moves forward. This puts a lot of pressure on the tube and is why it needs to be rigidly attached to the hull. If you're not going to get a chance to look at it on the hard for awhile to do a solid repair you should probably move it up and down as little as possible. Sounds like you will need to do that at some point anyway to see where the water is leaking out from around the keel bucket in order to locate the leak and get that area fixed as well. The good news is that it is all imminently repairable. A professional hand in some of it maybe and plenty of good guidance from this website will help you make it sound.

Edited by - on

twinws
Deckhand

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USA
13 Posts

Response Posted - 07/11/2013 : 18:02:48

Thank you everyone for your insight. I contacted Fulton Winch regarding the handle spinning and they provided information on how to reset the clutch brake on the winch and it now works fine. We’ve been able to get her out of the water and are now looking at reconstructing the volcano for the cable feeds thru the hull to the keel. Is there someplace I could find a drawing on how it all goes together? The current idea is to build a fiberglass volcano around the tube and apply the clamps to hold it together. My past experience with working with fiberglass leads me to believe that the fiberglass might crack under the clamp pressure. How far down the volcano should the tube be? Any help is greatly appreciated.

Edited by - on

Ape-X
Admiral

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USA
662 Posts

Response Posted - 07/12/2013 : 03:54:39

Sorry to hear about the workload ahead of you twinws. Esp. during the season...I don't have sage advice on building the volcano, can you build the fiberglass component as the entire tube? That would allow the hull and tube to become a single unit, no clamps required. Perhaps then a PVC tube can be used as the liner of the volcano for protection and wear resistance. My thinking is somewhere along borrowing design of a rudder housing.

Edited by - Ape-X on 07/12/2013 03:55:44

ftworthsailor
Captain

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USA
279 Posts

Response Posted - 07/12/2013 : 06:58:25

I found this diagram of the C-22 swing keel. It might be similar...

http://home.comcast.net/~tpenfield/C22/keel1.html
I couldn't find anything online for the C-25 SK.....

Edited by - ftworthsailor on 07/12/2013 06:59:46

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 07/12/2013 : 12:20:56

There were once a bunch of pictures in the archives of a turning ball/cable replacement that might help you.

Edited by - on

Lee Panza
Captain

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USA
465 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2013 : 08:41:26

Here's the Cat-25 detail from the manufacturer's parts catalog:

As you'll see, the pipe nipple extends through the hull, and the 'volcano' is built up around it. This may have changed over the years that these boats were made, but you need to be wary of possible corrosion of that nipple. When you rebuild the volcano you probably should expect to replace that nipple with new silicon bronze (get a longer nipple than you need and cut the threaded portions off both ends; the threads reduce the effective thickness substantially, and the epoxy will adhere sufficiently to the unthreaded pipe). Allow for replacing the turning ball without having to tear this apart in the future. It will need to be replaced again at some point. The ball shaft should be removable, but the ends need to be well-sealed because it's below the waterline. I believe I recall that mine is a little above the top of the volcano and the hose extends down over it. Check that the cable doesn't bear against the edge of the hull where it emerges to the sea. The cable makes a considerable bend at the turning ball, especially when the keel is near the bottom of its travel, so the ball needs to be low enough to keep the cable away from the edge of this hole.

When you replace the nipple, be careful to align it just as it was originally before the epoxy around it sets. If you do this with the winch and the steps removed you might want to establish the alignment with a string, suspended from a screw-eye under a temporary brace or bracket where the top step had been and running right down the middle of the nipple through its entire length.

Regarding the winch, it should be replaced periodically, even if the boat lives in fresh water, although it should last much longer than the cable, which should be replaced every few years (probably every other year in salt water). The consequences of the keel-lifting system failing can be intolerable, so all components should be reliable. This would seem to be an appropriate time for you to replace your winch, twinws. For the relatively minor additional cost you should also consider replacing the cable at this time as well. And check the connection between the cable and the keel. That connection failed on some earlier boats, and Catalina changed to a more advanced design later on. If your cable has been replaced by a PO, you likely have the newer connection, but you should check this.

By the way, I would really like to know what Fulton told you about resetting the clutch brake. This sounds like something that might be done when one needs to be fixed and replacement is not an immediate option.

Good luck with the repair. It could be helpful to someone in the future, who checks the archives of this forum for advice with a similar situation, if you could post info (and pictures, if possible) of how the repair proceeds.

Edited by - on

twinws
Deckhand

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USA
13 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2013 : 11:00:26

There is no nipple nor is there a pipe of any kind. Reading over the parts list I notice a 2.5” x 9 “ PVC pipe is supposed to be there also. Current thought process is to fiberglass a new PVC tube into the hull very securely. Next step it is fit the hose over top of it and clamp that baby down. It does not appear that the turning ball is secured in anyway it that correct? Does the weight of the cable keep the ball itself from sliding up and down the tube?
Enclosed is the link from Fulton Winch detailing how to reset the winch:
http://www.etrailer.com/question-56005.html?fb=yes
Thanks for everyone’s insight, all ideas and info is appreciated! I will post pictures

Edited by - on

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2013 : 11:15:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">There is no nipple nor is there a pipe of any kind.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I have an original copy of the manual, it shows a 1 1/4" x 6" brass pipe nipple. The turning ball is mounted inside, on an axle that is mounted on holes drilled through the nipple. An exhaust type hose is clamped over this. The PVC pipe just rests on the hose to protect it.

Edited by - on

twinws
Deckhand

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USA
13 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2013 : 10:47:21

Thank you. I'm guessing the brass pipe acts like a thru hull fitting sealed so any water goes up the tube. Question is the turning ball below the water line? How far does the brass pipe go below into the keel housing? How far up does the ball appear to be up the brass pipe?

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2013 : 15:46:49

From the drawing above that's in the parts catalog, and pics posted by others, it appears that the bottom of the brass pipe is flush with the outer hull in the recessed area into which the keel is raised. The two holes for the turning ball axle should be drilled so that the turning ball is slightly above the top of the brass pipe; I'm guessing approx 1/2" from the top of the pipe. Another forum member, Frank Hopper, had several very good pics taken when he changed out his cable, one of which showed the top of the pipe with the turning ball in place.
This is also true of the C-22. The turning ball is at the top of the brass pipe.

Edited by - on

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2013 : 04:37:49

Here is a photo of the manual page for the swing keel. Hopefully it will be clearer than the drawings:

It appears from this drawing that the turning ball is in the middle of the pipe nipple. You might want to call the Catalina Factory and see if they can give you measurements.

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2013 : 07:58:55

Davy, could you upload that pic to the Members Area for the archives.

Thanks.

Paul

Edited by - on

Frank Law
Navigator

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USA
159 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2013 : 10:00:20

Sorry to be so late on this topic... The turning ball shaft is mounted in a port to starboard direction and the shaft goes completely through the the pipe but does not extend past the outside of the column. Remember the shaft will have a whole lot of pressure on it as the keel is raise and lowered. The hose keeps the shaft in place.. Turning ball parts available from cat.direct.. If you build your own pipe / column watch your dimensions if you will be using standard equipment.

FRank Law
About Time
1983 3519
sr swk

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