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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Forestay failure

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John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2012 : 11:49:21

Mine has a clevis pin and cotter.

Edited by - on

MrKawfey
Navigator

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USA
124 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2012 : 11:53:22

Quick release is a relative term. Your "standard" rigging with clevis pin and cotter pin would be considered quick release by someone who operates a commercial fishing boat where all fittings are welded, riveted or swaged.

The wheels on my truck are quick release because they are only bolted on. And they only use 5 lugs which is quicker than 8 lugs.

Point being, just calling something quick release doesn't make it unsafe.

Edited by - MrKawfey on 09/17/2012 12:27:52

MrKawfey
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USA
124 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2012 : 12:27:55

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2012 : 14:19:32

Actually, Quick-Release Pin is the designated name of a [url="http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=99926&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&storeId=11151&storeNum=50045&subdeptNum=50046&classNum=50056#.UFeTZI1mQrc"]fairly specific piece of hardware[/url] used on boats and elsewhere.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2012 : 14:37:09

Clevis pin with either a split or ring cotter pin securing it. I safety wire most other things that could come loose. I am often guilty of not using the correct terminology and causing confusion. The "U" shaped connector is a clevis, the pin that goes through it and whatever you are connecting it to is a clevis pin, and the device that prevents the pin from slipping out is a cotter pin in U.S. terminology. I don't know if Canada uses U.S. or British terminology, so your country may vary.

Edited by - Dave5041 on 09/17/2012 14:48:09

MrKawfey
Navigator

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USA
124 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2012 : 15:30:31

I agree that when someone says quick release pin we tend to think of the device you show in your link, but if you walk into an industrial supply house and ask for a quick release pin, clip,connector, fastener, etc you will be presented with 50 different style to choose from using captive balls, toggles, cams, quarter turns, pins etc.

Its not an industry standard term with a specific set of requirement. I can market velcro shoes as quick release and no one can stop me.

Please understand the point of my original post: I would like to discuss options for securing the forestay that are easier to install or disconnect than the split ring without sacrificing safety. I did not want to digress into a conversation that starts with "Quick releases are dangerous, don't use them". First, not all quick releases work like the first one we talked about. Second, it doesn't have to be marketed as quick release to be easier to use. Third, just because something is easier to use doesn't mean it has to be lower performance.

I threw out a bunch of alternatives lets hear some debate on their merits. Lets hear some other ideas. Maybe someones got an idea as good as the guy who first put a split ring in for a cotter pin. If we just stonewall anyone who suggests something different we will all be doomed to continue bleeding from under our fingernails.

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4018 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2012 : 16:01:34

You say you want other ideas so this may be a little out of the box but I suppose you could use a case hardened pad lock, Quick to open and as secure as you can get when closed. Just have to size the lock to the hole.

Edited by - on

MrKawfey
Navigator

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USA
124 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2012 : 16:12:27

Scott, I kind of like it. Obviously there would be an issue if you needed to remove it quickly and couldn't find the key. Although I can't think of reason I would need to. I keep bolt cutters on the boat so that would be quicker than trying to remove a cotter pin or ring.

This is the style that jumps to mind

With a straight side bolt instead of a curved one. Any one see a reason this might not be safe?

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2012 : 17:02:58

I use clevis pins and split rings because they are simple, cheap, easy to use, and relatively bullet proof.

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islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4018 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2012 : 17:24:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Obviously there would be an issue if you needed to remove it quickly and couldn't find the key.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Combination lock ? Honestly I can't think of anytime that It would have to be removed in a panic situation. Has any one ever been out sailing and felt the need to cut their for-stay loose?

Maybe in a demasting situation but you probably would use the bolt cutters then.

Edited by - islander on 09/17/2012 17:28:59

MrKawfey
Navigator

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USA
124 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2012 : 18:59:52

Off topic for a moment but funny nonetheless: The very first time I put our boat in the water I loaded her up with all the tools and other sundries, tied her up at the club and locked the companionway for the night. The next morning I went to take her out for the maiden voyage and realized I didn't have the key for the lock. The ironic part is that the bolt cutters I decided should be in my tool kit were safely locked below. Fortunately the club had a bolt cutter and the next day a combination lock went on.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2012 : 20:29:07

I think the reason that this conversation turned to criticism of Quick Release devices in this application is because there isn't a scenario that could justify increasing the risk to an essential part of the rigging. I can't imagine any reason to disconnect the forestay in a big hurry that doesn't include the mast hanging off the side of the boat. You experience clearly demonstrated the increased risk. Frankly, you got lucky the headsail wasn't under load and your crew was able to react quickly and correctly.

I don't think[i] "quick release = bad, therefore don't use in critical situation, end of discussion." [/] Making life easier is a great thing. I think the clear message provided here is that it doesn't make sense to increase risk to simply make things easier.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2012 : 05:48:35

Chris - is ther ea stainless version of a "missing Link" - the link of chain with a barrel bolt on it that allows you to connect 2 chains together? If there was one that fit through that fitting it may be another solution. Just tighten up teh barrel to secure teh link, or undo it to remove it.

I think they would have the strength not to fail, but you would want to check it to be sure the threads weren't backing off. I wonder if there is a way to safety wire them.

Edited by - on

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2012 : 05:53:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I can't imagine any reason to disconnect the forestay in a big hurry <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Some of us need to lower the mast frequently. In my case every time I go out and then every time I come back in.

The humorous thing is that all this negative feedback from people who probably never have used the QRP.

In eight years of sailing, I've never been able to pull the QRP out, without engaging the release button. It simply will not pull through the turnbuckle. Mrkawfeys problem indicates that something else occurred.

Edited by - on

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2012 : 06:10:16

I'll add that if you don't maintain the pin, you could have a problem. The pin needs regular lubrication.

Since I activate the pin every time I sail, I can tell when the pin needs attention. If you don't maintain it, then push the release button in, there's a possibility it could stick, causing a very big problem. If you don't have a need to use it don't. Simple as that.

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4018 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2012 : 06:23:54

Chris (Prospector), One of these?

The problem with this is that the threaded end is wider than the stock so it would be loose in the hole once inserted. Like a 1/4' bolt in a 3/8' hole.

Edited by - islander on 09/18/2012 06:25:29

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2012 : 09:09:28

The padlock approach should be fine, and I wouldn't worry about the strength. The bar of the lock is the only loaded part, and it is loaded in shear. A 1/4" rod of almost any metal has far more shear strength than required. For most of us, I can't imagine that any other system would be much quicker or easier than snipping a cotter pin and pulling it out.

edit: And since I don't have your level of faith in quick release pins, I believe it would be more secure.

Edited by - Dave5041 on 09/18/2012 09:12:26

tweeet65
1st Mate

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USA
55 Posts

Response Posted - 09/19/2012 : 11:58:35

I wonder if the load off/on caused the legs of the clevis to "walk" to the end of the pin?

Dave

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4018 Posts

Response Posted - 09/19/2012 : 14:20:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I wonder if the load off/on caused the legs of the clevis to "walk" to the end of the pin?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
That's what I think happens with all the shaking the forstay does when the sail is luffing in a tack or letting the sail loose to roll it up.

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 09/19/2012 : 14:27:59

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I wonder if the load off/on caused the legs of the clevis to "walk" to the end of the pin?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I'm sure that is what happened. Tension cannot make the legs spread (too many off-colored jokes there) unless the clevis pin is bent, an unlikely situation. Tension tries to pull the system to its greatest length, perpendicular to the pin. Walking due to intermittent, uneven loads could cause the pin to back out.

Edited by - on

MrKawfey
Navigator

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USA
124 Posts

Response Posted - 09/20/2012 : 10:54:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave5041

Tension cannot make the legs spread (too many off-colored jokes there) unless the clevis pin is bent, an unlikely situation. Tension tries to pull the system to its greatest length, perpendicular to the pin. Walking due to intermittent, uneven loads could cause the pin to back out.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

In theory I agree however, uneven tension in the legs of the clevis due to misalignment as well as off center loading creating a bending moment will create a force that is trying to spread the legs. This is why the type of pin I used is totally inappropriate. I believe that your theory about the jiggling allowing the failure to happen is accurate, but for a slightly different reason. I think the clevis wants to spread, but the friction between it and the pin prevents it. When cycling the load, the legs can overcome the friction and move. If you keep your forestay really tight it may prevent it all together.

The balls in my pin are not meant to resist the spreading force.
I have an idea in my head that I have been working on the last few days while traveling and when I get home I am going to model it in CAD and post the images here.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 09/20/2012 : 11:16:28

Thats gotta be the best line on this board since I started...

"The balls in my pin are not meant to resist the spreading force."

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 09/20/2012 : 12:02:45

Agreed, that should become someone's signature line.

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2012 : 11:00:00

Here's an update on my forestay pin. I checked it yesterday & it indeed does have the exact same quick release as shown in the OP with the edition of a thin cable keeper. Guess what was ring cottered to the keeper that I never noticed before? Quite possibly the original pin although it looked kinda short for the job. It's the exact same diameter as the quick release pin but only about 3/4" in total length with very shallow shoulders. I don't plan to use it, but I will find a somewhat longer SS pin to replace the quick release. I also noticed that the jaws (?) attached to the forestay had spread marginally, so that the underside one is maybe 1/8" away from it's side of the tang. The upper is almost right against it, so there's been a bit of spread, but I've also got a bit of room to move it "forward" to gain another 1/8" or so of throw. I tried to close down the spread with a pair of vise grips but wasn't able to budge it under load. It's still 1/8-1/4" from the ball detent so I'm not overly concerned.

You can just see the ring cotter in just beneath the quick release pin:

Edited by - delliottg on 10/04/2012 11:07:08

MrKawfey
Navigator

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USA
124 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2012 : 16:58:35

Ok, so I have been real busy and just remembered I hadn't posted these pics. Here are a couple of ideas for a safer, but still easy to use quick release pin. These are quick CAD models with no detailing. They could certainly be smoother, thinner, etc.

So I think we can all agree that the pin itself is not the issue. It is easy to get a pin that will take the load with the right heat treatment. The retention mechanism is what's open for debate. The first one here would use a single "keeper" that can swing open for removal/insertion and then has a spring loaded "keeper-keeper"(???) that can be thumbed back for allowing the pin to nest. The nice thing is that if the keeper wants to open, the keeper-keeper would be forced to stay closed by the pin pressing its flat inside face. The more it wants to open, the less likely the keeper-keeper is to release.

The second style is a butterfly style with two keepers. I have not modeled a keeper-keeper for this one, but it wouldn't be too hard to imagine a snap hook or something similar to the first one. The trouble with this one is I think it could be installed one handed, but would need to be released with two hands. Also, this one is a bit bulkier than the first one.

Thoughts, Ideas, Purchase Orders?

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