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Forestay failure

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MrKawfey
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USA
124 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/15/2012 : 10:42:40

So, I was out sailing last week getting ready to haul out for the season (I need to get off this reservoir so I can sail deeper into the fall) and as I was unfurling the Genoa the forestay let loose. I have a CDI furler and at the beginning of the year I installed the "quick release pin" sold by catalina direct

What happened is that the lower toggle spread open and popped over the retainer balls on the pin releasing the forestay at the bow fitting.

A few fortunate things allowed me to fix the forestay quickly with a conventional pin and ring.
1) I had a competent crew on board that could steer the boat into the wind, get the motor started and handle the sheets with little input.
2) Because I had the furler, I had the old unused jib halyard available to pull the mast forward. (also having a quick release lever on the backstay and the halyard led back to a winch made it possible)
3) I keep a supply of spare parts on the boat that would make our local marina jealous.

So my questions to you guys are

1) Looking at it now I can see how a pin like this would be a bad idea for securing a toggle (metal u-strap) because it would be required to keep the toggle from splaying in addition to holding it vertically. How can they sell this specifically for this application?

2) Should I have something other than a toggle here? I have fairly new standing rigging and this was what was included.

3) Can you guys recommend something else that provides quick and easy removal while still being safe? It is a pain in the neck to work around the furler, hanging over the pulpit and trying to remove a split ring or cotter pin.

Thanks

Chris
Sacandaga Lake, NY
1984 C25 SRSK
"Les's Moor"

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4303 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2012 : 10:54:54

Others will probably chime in but you could possibly just use a longer quick release pin that would be too long for a splayed toggle to slide over the end.

Probably is best to use a standard pin and deal with the occasional inconvenience.

Edited by - on

Lee Panza
Captain

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USA
465 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2012 : 23:17:46

DON'T USE QUICK-PINS IN SUCH A CRITICAL CONNECTION!

Use conventional clevis pins and wire rings (sometimes called "ring-dings"). The good ones, with one end slightly bent to make them easier to get on or off, take only a few seconds to install or remove (except, admittedly, with gloves), but they are much, much more reliable.

Quick-pins are great for applications where they need to be removed frequently, such as for making quick adjustments, and where they can be visually monitored. But they can jam as contaminants build up inside, and they rely on a rather precise fit in whatever they are inserted into. They might be OK on a racing dinghy where the mast is unstepped every time you put the boat away, but if you're leaving the mast up for a season there's no excuse for using this kind of connector. I've been dropping and raising my mast frequently lately, but the few seconds added to the process is an insignificant price to pay for the greatly increased security.

You're extremely lucky, Chris; don't tempt fate twice. Oh, and since you already carry an assortment of hardware it shouldn't be any burden to keep an assortment of clevis pins and rings on-hand. They do get sacrificed to Davy Jones easily (but they're a lot less expensive to replace than the quick-pin that goes over the side).

Edited by - on

Davy J
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Response Posted - 09/16/2012 : 05:49:54

I'm not sure how the fitting could have opened enough to pop over the end of the quick pin, at least on my rig. Here is a photo of the bow and you can see the pin.

Also, I can't seem to grasp the idea that the fitting could spread under load? It would seem that the pin would have to bend in order for that to happen. I've been using this pin configuration for about eight years.

Edited to add that I cannot remove the pin from the fitting unless the ball is pushed in and/or stuck in.

Second edit: I cannot lose the pin overboard because it has a small stainless lanyard.

Edited by - Davy J on 09/16/2012 06:18:39

John Russell
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Response Posted - 09/16/2012 : 07:44:30

Quick release pins are for those things that need to be released quickly. I can't think of a single time, other than catastrophic destruction of the mast in a knockdown or something similar, that one might need to release the forestay in that big of a hurry. It should require more effort than the push of a button to release the forestay.

Edited by - John Russell on 09/16/2012 07:45:24

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2012 : 10:14:01

I cannot imagine using such a pin for standing rigging, even on a daysailer. Cotter rings can be installed and removed easily if one end is bent slightly inward as Lee describes. The bigger the easier (and safer). Even those should be examined periodically for wear (and replaced occasionally) so the same thing doesn't happen with a standard clevis pin.

My theory on the spreading of the toggle has to do with the QR pin being longer than the normal clevis pin (see the photo above)... Who knows. But the result was that the "quick release" released under load.

Now that the risks have been dramatically (and happily not catastrophically) demonstrated, I would hope nobody else does this either. QR pins are meant for frequently releasing things like bimini frames and maybe a vang attachment (for pop-top users)--I don't believe unstepping a mast once a season is in that category. And keeping the mast from falling down is worth a few more seconds of fiddling around twice a year.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/16/2012 10:33:04

Davy J
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Response Posted - 09/16/2012 : 11:44:00

Having used the quick release pin to release the forestay hundreds upon hundreds of times I still cannot figure out how the U-strap on the turnbuckle could have opened enough to come apart. Here is a close-up photo of my quick release pin.

It seems the u-strap would bind up on the pin before being able to open up wide enough to release. Additionally, when I took the photo, I tried to move the pin. It would not budge. Also the bearings on the pin could not be pushed in.

Edited by - on

Davy J
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Response Posted - 09/16/2012 : 12:37:19

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">What happened is that the lower toggle spread open and popped over the retainer balls on the pin releasing the forestay at the bow fitting. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
After reading this again, I think that the holes on the u-strap on your turnbuckle must be larger than the pin and retaining bearings. I've tried to pull my quick release pin out, without pushing in on the release, and I am unable to get the QRP to pull out.

Edited by - on

islander
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Response Posted - 09/16/2012 : 15:29:07

I don't use a QR pin but I did find my Toggle was spread open enough that it was tight against the cotter ring. I reshaped it with a pair of channel locks and it has been fine now for two seasons. I would suggest that everyone should take a look, It only takes a second.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
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Response Posted - 09/16/2012 : 18:42:57

It is possible for those QR pins to come out when the sail is under load. It happened to me on our C-22 during a race. Fortunately we did not lose the rig and were able to put in a regular clevis pin/ring and continue the race. Since we trailer-sail the boat, we do use a different type of Quick pin on the forestay and forward lowers, the kind with a spring at the handle end and a swiveling blade lock on the open end. Those are much more secure. Unless you de-rig often, use a standard clevis pin and ring on the forestay.

Edited by - on

MrKawfey
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Response Posted - 09/16/2012 : 18:45:34

Davy's picture says it all. First, because the bow fitting and the forestay are not in perfect alignment it puts a slightly uneven load on the toggle, one side of the strap is being pulled with more force than the other. Second because the toggle opening is wider than the thickness of the bow fitting, one side of the toggle is pulling on the pin with a larger lever arm than the other side. Last, because the hole has to be slightly larger than the pin (so you can get it in and out) the whole thing is allowed to tilt.

All of this adds up to a pretty significant amount of force trying to spread the toggle in addition to pulling it.

One thing I would like to point out...being quick release does not inherently make something less safe. Yes, there are a lot of quick release designs that sacrifice strength or reliability for ease of use, but there is no inherent law of nature that requires the two to be in opposition. It's worth noting that in this particular application, even a cotter pin is not technically appropriate even though it has become an acceptable application. Cotter pins are intended to keep a load bearing part in position (rotationally, laterally, etc.) not to be the load bearing part itself. The cotter pins we are using are not hardened or even manufactured to any particular standard of performance (ASTM, SAE etc). In practice there is a huge range of quality or strength when buying a pin and no way for the customer to know what they are getting. The shearing force on a pin (or split ring) at this point can be very large if the loads are not in alignment.

So, while the design of the QR pin we have been using is clearly an example of a trade off in mechanical performance for ease of use and, I believe, not appropriate for this application. I would love to hear ideas some ideas for a quick release that might be as strong or stronger than a split ring. How about a style like this?

This one is advertised for a C22, but someone might manufacture a stronger one for purchase.

How about a Hitch pin (hair pin) instead of a split ring

I know a hitch pin is not supposed to be load bearing, but neither is a cotter pin or split ring. I am not against the split ring, just looking for some ideas on a better way.

I should mention that I do hate trying to wedge my finger nail between those rings and trying to feed it through a hole, blind, while keeping it split is not fun. The rings with the single bent length are somewhat better, but if the bend is too sharp and the wire diameter too large, it can be difficult to feed through the hole

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 09/16/2012 : 18:52:10

The photo DavyJ has of his attachment point is nearly identical to mine, or at least I think so. I haven't been down to the boat recently, but I'm going to check. I'm virtually positive I have the same arrangement with the keeper cable and heavy duty pin (5/16" or 3/8" and about 1-1-1/2" long or so) and always assumed it was stock.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2012 : 19:47:08

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by delliottg
 ...with the keeper cable and heavy duty pin (5/16" or 3/8" and about 1-1-1/2" long or so) and always assumed it was stock.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I very seriously doubt that, and the keeper cable has nothing to do with it. I seriously doubt Catalina would rely on the little spring-loaded balls to keep its masts up.

Come on folks--we're talking about masts here, and accidents that could cause serious injuries! Not biminis and assorted things that spring-loaded "quick release pins" are designed for. And I'm sorry if this adds a minute or two to your rigging/derigging process. If you disagree, just don't invite me on your boat. If I see that nonsense, I'll probably wish you a nice day and look for a ride on Sten's boat (or almost everyone else's I know). I am unrepentant on these basics.

Curmudgeon out.

Edited by - on

Prospector
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Response Posted - 09/16/2012 : 20:00:41

Not to be more nitpicky - but if you steered into the wind as you said in the original post, wouldn't that push your mast down? I thought that if you lost the forestay, your first priority was to point the boat downwind, and get the spare halyard on the bow pulpit.

If I am wrong, please someone let me know!

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2012 : 20:01:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 Not to be more nitpicky - but if you steered into the wind as you said in the original post, wouldn't that push your mast down? I thought that if you lost the forestay, your first priority was to point the boat downwind, and get the spare halyard on the bow pulpit.

If I am wrong, please someone let me know!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Nope!

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
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Response Posted - 09/16/2012 : 20:55:57

I think the quick release pin issue as been pretty well covered. The jaw doesn't need to spread, it just needs a varying, unevenly applied load on the pin to cause it to work out, and a high enough load to force the locking balls through. Pearl's PO used quick release pins at many points, and I continued doing it even though I wasn't completely comfortable with it. When a pin worked out and let the boom come free of the gooseneck, I was convinced to do it the right way. If you have doubts about something, don't do it. I have a drawer full of quick release pins I could list on the Swapmeet.

Edited by - on

Davy J
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Response Posted - 09/17/2012 : 00:54:14

I still don't see how the pin could be pulled out, at least on my set-up. The force on the pin is perpendicular, second, the close tolerance between the u-strap and the pin is such that the u-strap would be out of alignment, to the pin itself, if it were to open up.

I'll also point out that CD sells this item as the "Forestay release pin", not some bimini pin or other device.
http://catalinadirect.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display& product_ID=312

I think for the u-strap to be pulled open, the pin must not have been inserted all the way through the strap itself. The back side of the strap must have been already past the retaining bearings.

Edited by - Davy J on 09/17/2012 01:40:44

redviking
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Response Posted - 09/17/2012 : 06:54:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 Not to be more nitpicky - but if you steered into the wind as you said in the original post, wouldn't that push your mast down? I thought that if you lost the forestay, your first priority was to point the boat downwind, and get the spare halyard on the bow pulpit.

If I am wrong, please someone let me know!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Nope!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hmmm... I vote for it could go either way. Into the wind and you are dependent on the shrouds while the sails flop around. Falling off and running will put stress on the rig for awhile until you are dead downwind. Scary!

sten

Edited by - on

Prospector
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Response Posted - 09/17/2012 : 07:07:53

Think of the forces at the masthead Sten - If you are beam or broad reaching or running, the aft babystays and backstay are supporting the mast, preventing it from falling forward.

If you are close reaching, close hauled, then the forward babystays and forestay are holding up the mast, preventing it from falling aft. Think of this as lowering the mast. Could you do it with the babystays still attached? What would happen if you tried to force it? Now when raising the mast, and you need that extra 1/4" to get the turnbuckle on the stem, what do you do?

With the furler there may be additional support for the mast. I'm not sure. I know a furler is not intended as a safety device, but I have seen a couple broken forestays on boats with furlers where the furler held up the mast. Or at least it appeared to. One particular C-27 comes to mind.

In my case, without a furler, I would be very uncomfortable putting the boat in irons without a forestay.

I think in my case, I would blow the sheets (all of them), turn the boat downwind, and then get the spare halyard on the pulpit.

For a failure like the one in this thread, (a pin popping out of a fitting) I think you are most likely tosee it when there is either no stress on the part, or when the stress is intermittent (ie. sailing in slop with the mast pumping). For a shroud to break or a swaged fitting to let go, you are more likely to see it when a part is loaded quickly (crash gybe, puff on, headup/broach).

I guess the real lessons here are to be aware of the condition of your rig, do routine maintenance, and know th efunction of the different components of the rig.

Edited by - on

MrKawfey
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Response Posted - 09/17/2012 : 07:55:41

Just to clarify our situation, we were already pointed into the wind as we were in the process of putting up the sails. The main was up and we had just killed the motor as we were pulling out the jib. The pin released as the furler was spinning.

The first thing I did was pass the helm off, and then drop the main (topping lift was still on). When i got up to the bow i put some slack in the furler line and used it to tie the bottom of furler to the bow fitting. This gave me few minutes to go grab a messenger line for the furler halyard. Last i dropped the jib and fed it in through the front hatch. At that point I could take my time and figure out the right fix.

On another note, with all due respect, I can't agree with a blanket statement claiming :"quick release = bad, therefore don't use in critical situation, end of discussion." This forum is for discussing stuff so we can all benefit without having to figure it out on our own.

Also worth noting for naysayers, a split ring is a quick release form of a cotter pin. And the rings with the in-turned leg are definitely a step down in strength. I'd like to hear some debate about using a hitchpin or how about a grade 8 bolt with a wing nut and lock washer? Just two examples.

Once again, for the record, I totally agree that the style pin we started this thread discussing is not appropriate for use on the shrouds and stays.

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Response Posted - 09/17/2012 : 09:11:43

After a sailor friend of mine experienced a forestay failure, I started securing my spinnaker halyard to the pulpit.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2012 : 09:47:20

The halyard-bone's connected to the swivel-bone, the swivel-bone's connected to the luff-bone (jib), the luff-bone's connected to the drum-bone, the drum-bone's connected to the stem-bone... Yup--the furler might hold it up as long as the sail can withstand the tension.

Edited by - on

pastmember
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Response Posted - 09/17/2012 : 10:53:26

... and anyone using a quick release pin on standing rigging does not understand the importance of standing rigging.

Edited by - on

MrKawfey
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Response Posted - 09/17/2012 : 11:08:10

Who was the first guy to get tired of removing cotter pins every year, look at his key chain and say, "hmmm...what if i stick one of these rings in instead of a cotter pin!"

Edited by - on

John Russell
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Response Posted - 09/17/2012 : 11:15:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by MrKawfey
 Who was the first guy to get tired of removing cotter pins every year, look at his key chain and say, "hmmm...what if i stick one of these rings in instead of a cotter pin!"

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">He was the same guy that first ate the wrong kind of mushroom.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 09/17/2012 : 11:38:46

So, after reading through this entire thread a couple of times and assuming I need to change out the quick release pin that I'm almost certain is holding up my forestay, what is the right piece of hardware to replace it with?

Pin & cotter? Bolt & Nylock? Swivel pin & safety wire?

Having had a much smaller mast come down on me on my catamaran, it's an experience I'd rather not repeat with my much larger & heavier TR mast.

Edited by - on

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