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to fix or not to fix: help a new sailor out

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AlliAaron6312
Deckhand

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USA
14 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/04/2012 : 14:10:47

My husband and I bought a 1989 Catalina 25 STD rig wing keel 3 months ago. Last week, Hurricane Isaac hit our area hard, damaging our beloved boat that was anchored in a bayou on the Wolf River in Pass Christian, MS. We now have to make the difficult decision to salvage her, or have repairs done. Our insurance company will only cover around $5K for repairs.
We need:
mast and rigging (boom was intact)
rudder and tiller
motor (she starts right up, but smokes a lot)
(minor) fiberglass repair
rub rail repair

We are 1st time sailboat owners and would greatly appreciate ANY suggestions/advice. We were emotionally attached and are having trouble giving her up!! She didn't even have a name yet! :(

Edited by - on

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2012 : 14:50:25

Was it covered under insurance? Is the hull intact? Is she structurally sound?

Edited by - on

glivs
Admiral

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USA
835 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2012 : 15:26:23

Ouch....but I would not decide too quickly. Take a good appraisal of the damages and what may be salvageable, i.e. sheaves, blocks, spreaders, running rigging, etc., dry out the interior if necessary to prevent mildew, post as many pics as you can here on the forum to get feedback, and price out costs of the big ticket items before deciding how to proceed. A new motor and motor mount will require about half of your insurance monies. Price rigging, mast, possibly mast step and wiring harness through Catalina Direct but shipping the mast will be pricey. There are used motors and masts available but it will take some work to hunt them down. Certainly start searching along the Gulf coast. If there is little to no structural damage, she almost certainly is worth repairing and you and your husband could very possibly do much of the work. Much advice, experience here on the forum to help guide you if you are willing. I hope your home and family are well. Having experienced Alicia (1983) and as owner of a sister boat to yours we really feel for you and your family. btw, what's your sail no.?

Edited by - glivs on 09/04/2012 15:28:21

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5881 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2012 : 17:25:48

Usually either the insured or the company will get repair estimates from repair yards, and those estimates will usually determine whether it should be declared a total loss. Does the $5000. cover your complete investment in the boat? If you have only owned it for a short time, and it was insured for it's full value, then the settlement should be enough to make you whole.

It looks like a really nice boat, but boat repairs are incredibly expensive unless you have the skills to do some of them yourself.

In June, a C25 mast and boom were listed for sale on out swap meet in New York, asking $300., but you'd have to go there to get them. http://catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=25260& SearchTerms=mast

Edited by - on

waterbaby
Navigator

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USA
168 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2012 : 20:50:53

Gosh I'm really sorry to hear about this. Our boat was damaged last year in Irene so I know exactly how sick you are feeling right now. I've still got a lot of minor fiberglass issues to repair from that. I can't offer any advice really, in the end it really comes down to how invested you are in your boat and what the total sum of the damage is. Good luck with your decision!

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9042 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2012 : 21:09:46

When a mast comes down, the repairs might not be the replacement of the mast--it might be fine. The bad news is that something bad might have happened as it came down... The good news is it might be the result of a simple failure of a shroud or stay, causing no more than some twisting of the mast-step (tabernacle) on the deck... or it might be worse. We don't know, but I wonder from your picture.

What I don't understand is why a 1989 C-25 (worth by most estimates around $8-10K) is being declared a total loss (?) at $5K by the insurance company--unless that's the "agreed value" you picked when you insured her. If so, there you are--a lesson for anyone watching here.

My suspicion is the boat can be repaired for less than its value, which I'm assuming is more than $5K. I'm sorry if your coverage doesn't cover the repairs--that's the decision we make when we buy insurance.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/04/2012 21:11:25

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3403 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2012 : 03:26:50

I am sorry to hear about the damage to your boat. I also have an '89 Catalina and I love it. This is the way I would look at it...but this is just me. The damage that you listed in your posting, except for the outboard, it would seem that it is repairable for less than $5000 and will be therefore covered by insurance. When someone buys a new - used boat, it is generally sold with an outboard that is not new and in some cases may not perform ...perfectly. In my case, the outboard was finicky from the start and I knew right then that replacing the outboard may be in the cards. Previous experience many, many years ago when I had a new 1980 ODay 23 with a new 7.5 Evinrude, the one thing that I really appreciated was having a reliable outboard. 3 months after I bought my '89 Catalina back in 2005, I replaced the outboard with a new 2006 Honda 9.9 extra long shaft outboard. Almost every time I go out, I really appreciate the reliability of this now less than new outboard even though it was an added expense just 3 months after I bought my boat. Since then I have made many improvements to my Cat 25 and also as maintenance was required, various things have been upgraded and of course at added expense. But looking back, I have had 7 years enjoying my boat. It is sport, an outdoor activity and a hobby considering the improvements I have made.

I would get an estimate of what all the fixins will cost and I would be surprised based on your list if it is more than $5000 (not including the outboard)...and insurance will based on your posting pay for all of it. I would view getting a new outboard as something you are upgrading to ensure reliability for years to come... and not a day will go by that you will not appreciate having a new 2012 outboard.

Edited by - on

AlliAaron6312
Deckhand

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USA
14 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2012 : 06:01:59

Thank you for all the helpful comments!!! We DO have the boat insured for $7500 even though we got an extremely good deal on the boat buying it for only $5200 in July. It does not state the repairs need to be under $5K, that is what the insurance agent told us. We have never made an insurance claim before, should the maximum repair cost be stated in the policy? I will read it thoroughly again; however, I don't remember reading it. I have found that the most expensive cost and biggest obstacle will be finding/shipping a mast. I found one in NJ and am currently looking into shipping options. We are getting quotes from at least 2 shipyards to determine the cost of the repairs. Even if they are over what the insurance company will pay (although I am prepared to fight :), we are going to try to get it repaired.

Another obstacle is getting it to the shop. We do not have a trailer (hence us having to leave it in the water for the storm) and the closest repair shop is 50 mi away by water (30 mi by land) and towing costs (by land or water) are on the order of $1K. Although I don't think that cost is included in the repair cost. Any suggestions on this front?

Here is a link to a gallery of pics of the damages. https://picasaweb.google.com/113951629264353401333/Catalina25IsaacDamage?authuser=0& authkey=Gv1sRgCKSjw-vq1JSSkwE& feat=directlink

Thank you again for all the support - it makes us feel much better about making a decision!

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9042 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2012 : 06:35:05

I guess I didn't look hard enough at the picture--clearly the mast is toast, as is the outboard bracket. What is the extent of damage to the fiberglass around the mast step, chainplates, and transom (if any)?

You apparently have an "agreed value" policy--the most common type for boats. In a total loss, that's what they'll write the check for, unlike a car policy that uses something like the Blue Book value. Read very carefully what it says that agreed value pertains to. Assuming it includes all costs associated with the loss (transportation, etc.), then considering transportation and maybe a new outboard, $5000 might be about all you have left for the repairs to the boat itself. The fine print rules.

One consolation is that an agreed value of $7500 means lower premiums than an agreed value of $10,000 (obviously)... In the grand scheme, you tend to come out even, except the more you insure, the more the insurance company makes off of you. I tend to insure just enough that if the worst happens, I can reasonably afford to make things whole again. That doesn't necessarily mean having the insurance company do all of it.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/05/2012 06:37:19

CarbonSink62
Navigator

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USA
208 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2012 : 06:43:11

That sucks; the picture of the broken tiller is almost too much to bear.

My only advice is for you to be as analytical as possible. There are many of these fine boats all over the place; make the decision that is right for you, not the boat.

Your season is over anyway (sorry to be so blunt) imagine having a storage unit full of C25 spares, a check for $5k and a winter to look for a new C25. Just sayin'.

Sorry for your loss.

Ken

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3403 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2012 : 08:56:06

I noticed a recent (today) posting in our swap section selling a std mast, etc for $400 but a lot has to do with if location is feasible for you if the mast, etc checks out.

Edited by - on

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2012 : 09:13:23

This is pretty far from you but here are two quick hits on CL.

http://tampa.craigslist.org/hil/boa/3161642841.html

http://tampa.craigslist.org/hil/boa/3158826926.html

Apollo Beach Marina...(813) 645-0720

Edited by - on

JKBIXBY
1st Mate

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USA
38 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2012 : 17:24:40

I can understand how you guys feel. My C25 went thru Rita and Ike.
She made it thru the winds and a 14 ft tidal surge. I didn't even see the damage until later when I pulled her for a bottom job. I hindsite I should have pulled her right then and had a surveyor check her out.
A good survey will give you a better idea of what other damage may be there that the adjuster may have missed. I think it would be money well spent. Surveys are for more than buying boats when you live on the Gulf Coast.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2012 : 21:18:50

From the pics I agree that you'll need a new motor mount. Since you said the outboard runs, it probably only needs an overhaul, especially if it is a 2-stroke. You should be able to find a used mast. As another wrote, the distance from the seller may be an issue. Hopefully, you'll be able to fix her.

Edited by - dmpilc on 09/05/2012 21:22:40

AlliAaron6312
Deckhand

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USA
14 Posts

Response Posted - 09/06/2012 : 04:43:45

Thanks Everyone for the advice. We are getting her hauled out today and we'll hopefully know in the next few days an estimation of repairs. I do agree about the tiller - when I pulled it out of the cover, I almost cried. I don't know HOW it stayed on the boat! I found a used mast, rigging, rudder, and tiller for a great price in NJ per the Swap meet, but it's going to be about $1000 to ship them down here. But still a real great total price considering a new rudder and tiller will run about $800. I think the motor does just need an overhaul, but if we keep the boat, I would like to invest in a new/better used motor sometime soon.

Edited by - on

AlliAaron6312
Deckhand

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USA
14 Posts

Response Posted - 09/06/2012 : 05:21:06

just got horrible news...Insurance company calling it a total loss and won't let us buy it back!! Has anyone heard of this before?? Everyone we've talked to has said ins co's usually give you the option to!!! Grabbing everything I can off the boat and will have some parts to sell if anyone is interested. So sad, but I believe things happen for a reason and this just means we were meant for a different boat :(

Edited by - on

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 09/06/2012 : 06:31:42

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">just got horrible news...Insurance company calling it a total loss and won't let us buy it back!! <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Your boat will end up in an auction somewhere. That's how the insurance company tries to recoup the loss. Probably will end up in one of these places, or something similar.

http://www.yachtsalvage.com/list.htm

http://www.cooperss.com/

http://www.usauctions.com/

You would be able to purchase the boat back by being the highest bidder.

Edited by - on

AlliAaron6312
Deckhand

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USA
14 Posts

Response Posted - 09/06/2012 : 06:38:05

THanks Davy. Anyone know what we're "allowed" to take off the boat before it's salvaged? Don't want to do anything illegal, but we did put money into the boat since we bought it (eg., new compass, new battery, etc.). Wish I knew more about this stuff!!

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 09/06/2012 : 06:41:19

Ask you insurance company what you are allowed to salvage. When we had a car totalled I was allowed to put back a lot of lower quality equipment (like changing an iPod-compatible radio back to one that just had a CD player, putting back in the worn out floor matts, and just taking off the skid plate).

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2012 : 07:54:25

I'd be looking at some kind of appeal process. The '89 is considered the cream of the crop. The biggest concern would be the structure of the deck at the various attachment points for the mast and standing rigging. If the deck/hull structure is sound, I don't see why it can't be repaired but if it's not I'd imagine the cost of repair would far exceed your policy cap and probably the value of an intact '89.

Unfortunately, it will probably be difficult to insure this boat after repair. At least, with that insurance company and at current rates. I wonder about re-buying it at auction, making repairs and then insuring it???????????? Would a marine survey declaring it a sound vessel be required?

Edited by - John Russell on 09/07/2012 07:55:15

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2012 : 08:00:09

For future reference, who is your insurance with?

Edited by - on

AlliAaron6312
Deckhand

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USA
14 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2012 : 08:00:55

Thanks for the reply John. We did get good news from our insurance company yesterday. They are paying us the full policy, and letting us keep the boat! However, we just have to decide whether we want to put the work into it and then it never be worth our investment b/c it's a hurricane boat. We were told the boat should be insurable again as long as we did the repairs right and had it surveyed. So that is an option. But, I just don't know if it's worth all the time and effort when we could just buy a new boat and be back sailing without all the hassle of repairing the '89. But we do LOVE the boat and are very torn on what to do.

Edited by - on

AlliAaron6312
Deckhand

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USA
14 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2012 : 08:03:44

American Modern Insurance Group out of Cincinnati. All things considered, they were fairly easy to work with. We had to fight a bit - but they are letting us keep the boat. So we can either part it out, sell it to a yard, or repair it. In Mississippi, you don't need a title to sell/insure. I think that's why they're letting us keep it.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2012 : 08:07:26

Great news! As I said above, for me it ould be all about the deck/hull structure. The rest is just parts replacement. Sure, you'll lose sailing time making repairs but, you'll have a boat you know is sound and can serve you for many years to come. If you're thinking about quick turnover, then you might be better served by walking away.

A marine survey, while costly, might be the best next step to help you decide.

BTW, the insurance company is paying you the agreed amount AND letting you keep the boat means that you're stuck with the hassle and expense of disposal.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2012 : 09:18:43

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">A marine survey, while costly, might be the best next step to help you decide.

BTW, the insurance company is paying you the agreed amount AND letting you keep the boat means that you're stuck with the hassle and expense of disposal.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Exactly so, they've saved themselves the cost of disposal.

It might be worth your time to get a copy of [url="http://www.amazon.com/Inspecting-Aging-Sailboat-Don-Casey/dp/0070133948"]Don Casey's Inspecting the Aging Sailboat[/url], or in your case his entire collection before you decide to repair your boat. I'd agree that a survey may tell you whether it's worth your time to proceed, or best to start parting out and looking for another boat. Don Casey sums it up to if the hull and deck are sound, the rest can be repaired. Looking at your suite of photos and seeing the damage along the rub rails, your hull to deck joint may be sprung or leaky, plus tearing the outboard most of the way off couldn't have been good for your transom. The question is, do you want to repair a boat for the next year or so, or go sailing on one that already works (with a storage unit full of spares as pointed out earlier)? Working on a boat is kind of fun, until it becomes a chore (ask me about bottom jobs sometime). Sailing a boat is definitely fun, but there's a certain satisfaction of knowing all the little bits & pieces you've worked on are adding to that fun.

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2012 : 10:02:57

I also think that the summary of "if the hull and deck are sound the rest can be fixed" makes more sense with larger and more expensive boats than the C-25.

Catalina 25s, even the nicest 1989 models, are incredible deals for what they offer. A nice mid-80s C-25 that you could get for $5-$10k used is a quarter to half the price of what boats only a few feet larger go for. That makes it hard to want to spend too much money re-rigging one even if the hull and deck are sound. You'll probably spend more than what the boat is worth on the project, and a lot of time in the process.

On the other hand if you can find a nice but older C-25 to pull parts from and have the time and energy it seems like you could get your boat back on the water quickly. After the project you'd know every little corner of your boat and that things were assembled correctly, which offers a lot of peace of mind compared to buying a used boat. However the time expense would be considerable.

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