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Looking for expert advice on Catalina 25 sailboat

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
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Response Posted - 06/10/2012 : 01:25:18

Just a word of caution regarding a bottom job. If the boat's been in an area similar to mine (brackish, we're less than a mile from where the fresh water river meets the salt water sound). Depending on the bottom paint that's currently on it, you could have a power wash & paint situation, or a scrape the barnacles & mussels off the hull, then remove all the paint, then sand, then paint (which was my experience). My hull fouling took place in less than two years and was a huge PITA to deal with.

I'd try to pin the current owner down on both a time the bottom was last done and what was actually applied. If it was a proper bottom paint, you might be in good shape. If it wasn't, you could be looking at a big job. If it's just algae and grass, it'll come right off with a pressure washer, but if you've got more tenacious growth, it's a fair amount of work to get it off and the hull prepped and ready to be painted.

If you're not going to have the boat lifted out of the water before buying it, it'd be worth your time to hire a diver to take a quick look, or do it yourself with a mask & snorkel.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4303 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2012 : 09:18:04

I've owned my boat for 4-1/2 years and the bottom job was 8 - 12 months old when I bought the boat. I've had 3 quick hauls done including the one when I had the boat surveyed. The last one was about 1-1/2 years ago and the bottom job was still good but getting thin.

I'm pretty sure I need one now but will not pull the boat until this fall ath the earliest. I hit 5.7 knots a week or so ago on the 150 genoa alone in about 12 - 15 knots of wind. If I can still hit those speeds I OK with it. I don't sail for every last once of speed.

I agree with Dave on the scum line. Oxalic acid and it should come right off. If you're going to have a bottom job done I'd recommend you buff and polish the hull while it's out.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/10/2012 : 09:23:45

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Diver
 A "bottom job" is simply considered routine maintenance for a boat kept in the water. Depends on conditions and salt or fresh, how long it will last. All you do is pull the boat, clean off the grunge, scrape and clean, then apply the new paint, an anti-fouling paint that discourages grunge.

Don't sweat it. Really. You can do it yourself, or pay someone to do it. The yard on my lake wants $1200 to do mine....but he's the only game on the lake so he's got a captive audience, so to speak. I need a bottom job...bad...or at least mow the lawn before I sail.

I don't race....and I don't care about getting that other 1/2 knot of speed I'm losing because my bottom has a layer of algae. It's not very pretty, but I can't see it. I had my boat pulled and power washed before I bought it...looking for blisters and the Catalina Smile. My boat had neither...but definitely needs new barrier coat and the keel faired.

From the pics you posted, looks like some nasty tannin staining from the water she's in. I think I can see the same thing on other boats around her. Is that a drip stain on the rudder or an actual crack? If a crack that rudder is gone. Looks like it also has they typical separation seen in rudders. The owner says the bottom hasn't been done in 3-4 years....I bet it's been longer than that. When you get to the boat, one of the things to look at is the bilge. Open that long wooden cover in the floor and take a look at the condition of the keel bolts, and the cleanliness of the bilge. That will usually tell you alot as everything (leaks) ends up in the bilge.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Joe,

When I was looking for my boat I looked extensively in the DFW area. During my hunt I found out about a guy (I believe his name was Robert) that would do bottom jobs on our boats for 900 - $1000 if I remember correctly. I believe PCP777 used him and could maybe fill you in better on the cost.

Call Carol at Inland Sailing on Lake Ray Hubbard and she can give you Robert's??? name and number. He has his own trailer.

Sorry if this is a hijack. Didn't make sense to start another whole thread.

Hijack over.

Edited by - GaryB on 06/10/2012 09:25:29

kettu7
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 06/11/2012 : 06:49:52

I will try to find out exactly when the last bottom job was done and what exactly was done, but from what the seller is saying, it's been at least 3 years and the growth needs to be scraped off, then bottom has to be sanded and painted. Here is what I think we can expect the bottom to look like: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/irslg815twae95j/jwqjClmOP9/IMG_5619.jpg (it's the photo of this actual boat). Looks like a reasonably ugly layer of algae and the other shade of green is a signal coat.

I will be calling their facilities and my own marina today to try to get a quote. I've seen all kinds of quotes mentioned on the forums, starting with $800 and ending with $1200, but isn't it too steep for a job like this? I can't imagine roughly $1k being a fair price for some 3-4 hours of work + paint.

So I went to see the boat yesterday. Here is the link to pictures I took: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/irslg815twae95j/qYadcxIjs6.

There are good news and not so good news. Overall condition of the boat seems to be good, it doesn't look too tired, all the ropes, turnbuckles and the rest of the rigging looks in good shape. From what I was able to see, sails were in good condition too, seams are all good as well. Contrary to the impression I got from the original photos, the rudder isn't cracked, it's just a drip stain, so it doesn't have to be replaced. Engine "on the surface" seems to be okay as well, we had it running while talking with the seller and it didn't produce any weird noise, smell or anything. What we thought was a scum line indeed appears to be one, so it should come right off. Deck around chainplates seems to be solid, isn't bent or cracked. Spreader sockets appear to be stainless steel, not older aluminum (can be seen in the photos).

The boat will need some cleaning both in the cabin and in the cockpit, but nothing major. According to the seller, they have had some water leaks (and I think I can see signs of it on some of the photos), but these leaks have been fixed.
Bow pulpit is indeed bent a little bit, but I couldn't see signs of hull repair around that area.

A few of the things that concern me are:

Water in the bilge as can be seen in the pictures - is this a bad sign, or can water accumulate in the bilge from rain, splashes of waves, etc?
Fuel gauge is slightly oscillating around the true reading - is this a bad sign, or is it relatively easy to fix?
Sails may need to be cleaned, washed or whatever is being done to them to make them look cleaner - is it a hard thing to do?
Windows don't have any sealing rubber frame around them - is this normal?
Galley sink needs to be connected to a water pump - an easy fix?
Several spider webs on the vertical panel in the cockpit and inside coaming compartments. From what I learned, this isn't necessarily a bad sign, could be from stress during trailering (by previous owners). Is it just a superficial thing, or could it be a sign of something worse?
Some weird drip stain on the quarter berth starboard (can be seen in the pictures) - what could it be?

I also made quite a few pictures of the hull. I didn't see any evidence of collision or major repairs.

From looking at these photos, have I missed anything, or do you guys see anything I didn't interpret right?

What I think should be my next step is making a conditional offer pending result of a professional marine survey. Do you guys believe having the boat surveyed is a must in my case?

Thanks again for all your help.

Edited by - kettu7 on 06/11/2012 06:53:49

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
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Response Posted - 06/11/2012 : 07:19:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by kettu7
 I will try to find out exactly when the last bottom job was done and what exactly was done, but from what the seller is saying, it's been at least 3 years and the growth needs to be scraped off, then bottom has to be sanded and painted. Here is what I think we can expect the bottom to look like: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/irslg815twae95j/jwqjClmOP9/IMG_5619.jpg (it's the photo of this actual boat). Looks like a reasonably ugly layer of algae and the other shade of green is a signal coat.

I will be calling their facilities and my own marina today to try to get a quote. I've seen all kinds of quotes mentioned on the forums, starting with $800 and ending with $1200, but isn't it too steep for a job like this? I can't imagine roughly $1k being a fair price for some 3-4 hours of work + paint.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> We can't be sure from the photos, but that bottom looks like it will take a whole lot more than 3-4 hours of work and paint. I frankly doubt that the boat can sail decently with that bottom. There'll be so much drag from the algae that it will be extremely difficult to tack, because it will lose too much speed during the tack, and will wallow. There's a reason why the current owner has let it go for 3 years without painting it, and my guess is that he's either terminally lazy or the cost in that area is prohibitive, so, rather than invest his own money in a bottom job, he wants to persuade you to spend your money on it, thinking you can get it done on the cheap. But, if you have to do a bottom job immediately, you should think of that as an increase in the cost for you to own that boat. Accordingly, I suggest you get a quote from a local marina, and deduct the entire cost from your offer. Bottom jobs aren't cheap, and that bottom looks so bad that yours will probably be inordinately expensive. In addition, unless you pay to have all the old paint removed, the bottom surface will probably still be rough when it's done. The current owner is the one who neglected it, and he should have to bear the cost of his neglect, not you. It's too bad, because otherwise it looks like a pretty nice boat.

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/11/2012 : 08:16:05

I'm with Steve....looking at that rudder....man that bottom is bad. I need a bottom job as well, but mine isn't that bad.

On my boat, when I sail or at least go out and motor, much of the algae growth gets knocked off...when I come back from a day of splashing through the chop it's just a thin layer of green slime.

The pics of the bottom I can see...especially the rudder....looks like that boat hasn't been out in a long time. The bottom job will not be cheap and will NOT be a simple 3-4 hour job. It will take a full day's work on my boat just cleaning, sanding and prepping the bottom...I can imagine that one will be worse....however, that algae looks like the soft, squishy kind that will come off pretty easy. You or a diver could probably brush or scrape 80% of that gunk away, leaving the thin slimy base layer. BUT, it will grow back quickly! Just go sailing and that should knock off alot of any new growth.

The other pics...alot of surface mold...no biggie, it will wipe off. The interior needs a good cleaning. Mine was the same. Lots of surface mold and mildew. I spent a full, long day inside with a bucket of Lysol/Clorox mix, a sponge and towels. Cleaned up really well and a year later the mold/mildew has not returned. That drip stain in the quarterberth...can't tell, but it looks like a varnish drip. If it wipes away, it's a tea stain from a pushpit base (or something) and you need to re-bed it. If it doesn't wipe away, it's a varnish drip. I can see in other photos that someone varnished the brightwork in place at some point...it's happened on my boat too.

The gelcoat cracking on the cockpit is pretty severe. I think it's cosmetic surface cracking, but can't be sure from the picture.

Water in the bilge is normal...that's where any leaks or whatever ends up. Bilge looks decently clean, easily dried out and cleaned up. The one keel bolt I see looks great.

Does the whale pump not work? No biggie, mine doesn't either. You can add an inline demand pump and a residential style faucet. Easy mod and is documented here on the forum.

Sails can be cleaned and reconditioned by SailCare. I wouldn't try to do it yourself. You can, but it's harder than you think and you won't get the results you expect. It's been documented here several times.

The starboard upper shroud chainplate is(was) leaking. You can see the staining on the bulkhead and around the bolts. Not an uncommon thing, but look for rotten wood in the bulkhead...base of it and more importantly around the bolt holes in the wood. This is a very important structural part of the running rigging and you don't want it to fail on you while on a starboard tack.

I also see some minor surface corrosion on the running rigging. There's alot of surface corrosion all over the boat.

My opinion: The boat has been sitting unused for some time. The owner has neglected to do the needed maintenance and upkeep. This one's a crapshoot. Might just need a good cleaning and a little maintenance....might be a money pit. I think the odds are in favor of a good cleaning and maintenance.

Regarding a survey....up to you. Personally I'll gamble $5k on my own personal "once over"...when a survey will cost 1/5th the price of the boat. You'll have to have it hauled and bottom cleaned for the surveyor, so you're probably looking at $1k to survey this one. $500 to $600 for the survey plus the cost of the haul/clean. Now, if I were looking at a boat that was $30k or more....I'll go for the survey of course, it's probably required by the lender anyway. But a boat in the $5k range...me personally, I'll gamble the money. Up to you...it's your money and your comfort level.

Edited by - on

kettu7
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Response Posted - 06/11/2012 : 11:14:53

Thanks again guys, I will try to negotiate with the seller as I will obviously have to invest quite some money, it seems. I feel like I should try to knock at least $1k off the price and offer $3500-3600 at most. Considering noone else came over to Baltimore to see the boat yet, there's no way it's going to sell on eBay and I probably have some negotiating advantage here.

Joe, I can see what you mean about starboard upper shroud chainplate leaking, I didn't pay attention to it when I was onboard, so I'm lucky I have pictures and you guys to look at them. If there's indeed rotted wood around bolts, what are the options here? Is this bulkhead fixable/replaceable at all? Or is it a ditch and run situation?

If gelcoat cracking isn't a superficial issue, what else could it possibly be?

Edited by - kettu7 on 06/11/2012 11:15:40

dragonf1y
1st Mate

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USA
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Response Posted - 06/11/2012 : 11:57:37

I do know the cockpit pan is cored. I have inboard controls that are mounted in about the area where you see the spider webbing in the gelcoat. When I bought my boat the mounting bolts leaked a tiny bit. I let the core dry out completely and then properly sealed the bolts going through the side of the cockpit there. Was there any evidence of any previous holes in the cockpit on that side that had been filled or a place where water could have gotten into the core and weakened that pan? Might have caused the pan to flex over the years and create the cracking? My only other thought is perhaps that took a good jolt at one point and created a tiny crack in the gelcoat which over time has expanded greatly over the years of weight in the cockpit. Could also be someone repeatedly jumping into the cockpit from the seat? Hard to say for sure from the photos.

I have a 1981 fin keel that has no cracking like that in the cockpit except for right in front of the companionway down low in the corners and it's minor but on my 'to fix' list. My boat lives on the Puget Sound though and doesn't take as much beating from hot summer to extreme cold winter.

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/11/2012 : 12:21:24

The windows don't have rubber seals because they've been replaced. There are some opening hatches and some that have the newer (87+) style windows that are made with dark plexiglass or lexan on the outside of the boat.

I don't know anything about those (or much about the normal aluminum ones...except that I need to reseal mine this summer).

I'm not sure what to say on pricing. I think the sail inventory is nice, the bottom is not, the spider cracks in the cockpit aren't so nice, and it looks like there could be moisture coming through some of the deck bolts. I wouldn't assume that you won't need a new rudder, that drip line tells me that there is water in the core that is exiting through the tiller mounting point. Once you have water in the core the rudder will go at some point. I think that is going to be the case for most used C-25s though, so I wouldn't hold it against this boat.

I bought my C-25 for around $4k and while it wasn't as cheap as the best deals out there I also don't think it was too much. In some ways the condition of mine is a lot better (bottom paint, no signs of water), but in some this one is better (sail inventory, pretty new cushions). My boat had a brand new Tohatsu 9.8hp outboard, yours has an inboard, so that is harder to compare.

Don't forget to count in moving costs to get it from Baltimore to New York. That may give you a chunk of money that would go a long way towards a local boat. Don't get hung up on Catalina 25s either, there are a lot of nice boats in this size range.

Edited by - on

kettu7
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Response Posted - 06/11/2012 : 20:44:40

I am trying to understand what a fair price is for a C25 of similar model years, and it looks like prices vary a lot. I understand that these prices are asking prices, and they vary by location and condition of the boat, but a quick search on BoatTrader gives a $5k to $10k range (http://www.boattrader.com/search-results/Zip-07302/Radius-any/NewOrUsed-any/Type-Sail/Make-CATALINA/Length-25,25/Year-1984,1986/Sort-Length:DESC/), on Yachtworld - a $3k to $13k (!!) range (http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/cache/searchResults.jsp?man=Catalina& is=false& type=& luom=126& fromLength=25& toLength=25& fromYear=1984& toYear=1986& pricderange=Select Price Range& Ntt=& fromPrice=0& toPrice=& searchtype=homepage& cit=true& slim=quick& ybw=& sm=3& Ntk=boatsEN& currencyid=100). It sounds a bit confusing to me that these two boats we've discussed here are priced at the very bottom of these ranges, and yet we still arrived at a conclusion that they are not worth the money being asked for them (insert a puzzled smilie face here).

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/11/2012 : 21:11:59

With the water leak on the starboard bulkhead from the upper shroud and the water in the bilge (which isn't too bad at the moment) and some other signs there has been more water in the bilge at some earlier time I'd have the boat surveyed just to be sure the deck/sole isn't beginning to rot. The survey can also give you input on the crazed areas in our pictures.

I agree on the bottom job, it will be on the upper end of the scale and will definitely take at least a day and more likely two. Realistically, if this guy doesn't want to pay for the bottom job or drop the selling price to cover it I'd walk away. If he offers to have the bottom job done for you get it in writing exactly what will be done and what paints will be used before you sign any papers.

Before I went any further with this deal I would see if he's willing to budge on his price and if he will, make the final price subject to the survey which in my opinion should absolutely include pulling the boat for the survey. That should also be covered by the seller if you don't buy. Once the boat is pulled and the bottom pressure washed unseen problems could be uncovered (bent prop shaft, bent prop, major blisters, etc...).

If the boat has been sitting as long as it looks like it has I would be real leery of algae in the diesel tank. Just because it ran sitting at the dock doesn't mean you're out of the woods. If it has algae and you get out in a chop you could easily stir up the algae and foul the injectors/have major engine problems.

I'm on the fence on this one. I looked at 10 - 15 boats over a 6 - 8 month period before I found my boat. Almost bought a couple of them but I'm glad I waited. When I first saw my boat I knew almost immediately it was the boat I'd been waiting to find. Several others have almost bitten on "early in the hunt" boats and then backed off at the last minute only to find the boat of their dreams a few weeks/months later. All that I'm aware of were glad they had waited.

With all of the questions on this boat and the cost of moving it to your home area I think I would look for something closer to home. Remember, with the economy in its current state there are thousands of boats out there and a lot for sale at low prices.

Don't get in too big of a hurry to buy and make a mistake. You've lived this long without a boat.

I don't mean to sound negative, I just want you get the boat of your dreams and be able to enjoy it instead of worrying about problems.

Just my 2 cents, you get what you pay for!

Edited by - GaryB on 06/11/2012 21:19:24

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/12/2012 : 07:58:02

Yes, you can pretty easily replace the bulkheads. They simply screw into the cabin top and hull. A sheet of 4x8 marine grade 5/8 Teak Veneer plywood can be ordered for around $180. It's a bit more work than simply tracing the old one and cutting it out as they're also "shaped" a bit on the edges to fit against the curve of the hull...but it can be done by all but the most severely incapable.

As far as price/value.....touchy subject around here. Due to the present economy, boat values and prices are all out of whack and all over the place. Right now is the best time to buy a boat in recent history. There are a ton of them on the market, most are not selling, so prices are lower than they've ever been. However, some owners here and there do not have a realistic idea of what their boat is actually worth in this market. They have an asking price that is grossly inflated, or an idea of value that is way above anything else. I "think" in most cases they just haven't taken the time to look around and adjust....or refuse to do so because they paid a premium for their boat in a different market and are unwilling to accept that their boat has lost value....some may be upside down...who knows. These boats will sit for sale, for years maybe. Who knows...the market will eventually turn around and values of maintained boats will rise....so the guy that asked $7500 for his C25 took 4 years to sell...he finally got his satisfying price but had to maintain a boat for 4 years (slip fees, insurance, routine maintenance) spending $$$$ when he could have sold it quickly at a fair market price...making it a wash really.

So, look around and draw your own conclusions. When I was boat shopping, I think I looked at every C25 in the country for sale on various sites. I came up with some common market values for different year models, depending on condition and equipment, so I knew when a price was fair or not, regardless of what the owner "thought" it was worth.

In general....and this is in no way absolute....

'88-90 Wing Keels, with trailer, newish motor, everything clean and well equipped, are the most valuable and desirable, also the most expensive with prices up to $14k.

Late 70's Mark1 models (my term) are the least expensive. It all depends on condition and equipment. Poor condition, original equipment boats can be $1k or less, typically $1500...but a good condition boat with nice sails, rigging, etc...can be worth $4500...more with a trailer.....more with a new motor.....

Early/Mid 80's (82-86 or so) Mark 2 models are the average, mid production runs and vary from $2500 to $7500...trailer, new motor adds value....as does things like roller furling, new sails, etc.

Condition, equipment, trailer, motor, cushions, sails, rigging, electronics, all this stuff can cause a boat to have a much higher...or much lower....value compared to competing C25's in the market.

If you encounter an unreasonable owner...just make your fair offer and be prepared to be surprised, or to walk away.

Edited by - on

Prospector
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Canada
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Response Posted - 06/12/2012 : 08:37:08

Joe, I think your assessment is probably pretty close, but some markets are tougher than others.

Folks continue to gasp at prices near here, yet Fla and Cali seem cheap when I am shopping around. That may be because I'm internet shopping and not realizing the truth that you get when you see a boat in person.

In any case, I would give a plus-minus factor of at least $2,500 depending on what market you are in. Boats that are priced at $8500 in Toronto appear to be listed for $5,000 in Florida. Yes, that does mean derelict boats are listed at $2500 up here. I can't speak to what is actually selling, just the list prices I am seeing.

Also, within the market there is a contraction going on, where a 25 foot boat is becoming desireable as slip fees go up, and trailering becomes more expensive for big boats. We are in a good place right now, and there are very few C-25's just sitting on the market up here. (But I'd still go up to a 30ft + boat if I had the $$$.)

Edited by - on

kettu7
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Response Posted - 06/12/2012 : 08:57:41

Thanks again, guys. The owner of this boat is willing to negotiate if this boat doesn't sell on eBay (ends Thursday), however I feel he won't go lower than $4200 or so. Their point is that priced as she is, she's a great value, even though they admit to the points we raised about bottom job, starboard bulkhead, rudder, etc. I am going to wait till Thursday to see what happens with bidding (I am fairly confident that it won't sell), and then decide where to go from there. If it so happens that it doesn't sell and he's willing to negotiate, then I'll have a certain advantage on my side.

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
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Response Posted - 06/12/2012 : 09:11:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 Joe, I think your assessment is probably pretty close, but some markets are tougher than others.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Most certainly! And you have to factor in the cost of shipping (and maybe importing) if you don't purchase locally.

Some markets are stronger than others simply because of available inventory, location...etc....

If I had opted to pay a lower price for the same condition boat in another market, the cost of transporting the boat to my location would have made it more expensive than the local market prices....I found several C27's in my budget, but nothing local and the transportation/commissioning cost in addition to the purchase price took them out of my range.

There are many factors to consider in regard to value. If I were a seller and a potential buyer told me "Your boat is $5500 but this same one in Florida is $4000" I'd tell him to go to Florida and buy that one.

Edited by - Joe Diver on 06/12/2012 09:14:16

awetmore
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Response Posted - 06/12/2012 : 10:11:24

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by kettu7
 Thanks again, guys. The owner of this boat is willing to negotiate if this boat doesn't sell on eBay (ends Thursday), however I feel he won't go lower than $4200 or so. Their point is that priced as she is, she's a great value
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The boat is only a great value at $4200 if the seller can find a buyer at that price point.

As long as you don't get too attached to this boat and feel like there are no near permanent failures that you'd need to address (like soggy core in the deck) I think you'll do okay. Maybe you'll get it cheaply enough to cover the immediate work, maybe you'll find another local boat.

You do need to decide if you are looking for a budget boat that needs work (that is what this one will be), or a ready to go boat that you can sail right away. In the end the money spent will likely be the same, but the budget boats that need work are going to be easier to find (people with nice and clean boats are probably active sailors).

I will reiterate that there are a lot of nice boats in the world besides C-25s, so don't get stuck looking at this particular model. I see a lot of decent looking boats at reasonable prices on newyork.craigslist.org. This Cape Dory (a much more robust boat than a C-25) looks like a steal:
http://newyork.craigslist.org/brk/boa/3044717450.html

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
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Response Posted - 06/12/2012 : 10:41:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by kettu7
 Their point is that priced as she is, she's a great value,
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Of course they say that....and they also say in the ad "This well cared for Catalina...." and "Great condition"....and "She is in great condition and well equipped"....

Look at who you're dealing with...they freely admit "she has been in our care for the last 3 years".....well, they haven't really "cared" for her IMHO. If they had, she wouldn't have water in the bilge, a horrible bottom, corrosion on the rigging, stains on the hull, mold/mildew all over the interior......

Edited by - Joe Diver on 06/12/2012 10:43:12

kettu7
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Response Posted - 06/12/2012 : 11:14:57

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by awetmore
 You do need to decide if you are looking for a budget boat that needs work (that is what this one will be), or a ready to go boat that you can sail right away. In the end the money spent will likely be the same, but the budget boats that need work are going to be easier to find (people with nice and clean boats are probably active sailors).

I will reiterate that there are a lot of nice boats in the world besides C-25s, so don't get stuck looking at this particular model. I see a lot of decent looking boats at reasonable prices on newyork.craigslist.org. This Cape Dory (a much more robust boat than a C-25) looks like a steal:
http://newyork.craigslist.org/brk/boa/3044717450.html
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I am happy to go either way, but would prefer to pay extra for a ready to sail boat rather than get a budget boat and have to go to great lengths to fix it.
You are right about that Cape Dory - it does look great, I already saw it on Craigslist when it was priced at $5000, but haven't spoken to the seller yet because I wanted to focus on these two C25s so far. As little as I know about boats, I've read much more about C22s/C25s than about all other boats combined :).

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Diver
 Of course they say that....and they also say in the ad "This well cared for Catalina...." and "Great condition"....and "She is in great condition and well equipped"....

Look at who you're dealing with...they freely admit "she has been in our care for the last 3 years".....well, they haven't really "cared" for her IMHO. If they had, she wouldn't have water in the bilge, a horrible bottom, corrosion on the rigging, stains on the hull, mold/mildew all over the interior......
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Couldn't have said it better. As great as it looks on the pictures, it's not so perfect in real life, and it would be a painful surprise for someone who buys it on eBay without looking at it first. Lesson learned :).

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Prospector
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Response Posted - 06/12/2012 : 11:19:30

Here is another, listed with a broker. (Think used car dealer) http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1982/Catalina-25-2471828/Mamaroneck/NY/United-States If you like it, you can sell the trailer BEFORE you take delivery, and strike something between $500 - 2500 off teh price of the boat depending on the trailer.

Here's another at another broker - http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1984/Catalina-25-Standard-Rig-Sloop-2336166/New-Rochelle/NY/United-States

Another one - with furling and a bowsprit. (Huh!?!) http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1981/Catalina--2373493/Bay-Shore/NY/United-States

I dunno anything about any of these, just did a quick search for 25 foot sailboats in NY under $5,000 on yachtworld.

Brokers will put very little effort into selling cheap boats like ours, so the listing s don't say much and you will have to do your own legwork. You should also be sifting through teh ads on sailingtexas.org to see what is available in your area. there are a lot more venues than just this forum and CL for buying a boat.

Don't feel locked into one of the boats you have seen just because nothing else is available today.

Edited by - Prospector on 06/12/2012 11:24:17

delliottg
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Response Posted - 06/12/2012 : 12:43:12

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Don't feel locked into one of the boats you have seen just because nothing else is available today.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This is good advice. When we decided to step up from our San Juan 21 several years ago, we really only had a few requirements. There had to be standing room inside, an enclosed head, a galley and no or minimal projects. We knew we wanted a sail boat, but really didn't know much beyond that. We looked at close to three dozen boats, including a Catalina 380, a couple of Hunter 34 and 36's, (two of them were gorgeous, but we talked ourselves out of them reluctantly), and several other boats in the 30' range including a sketchy Catalina 30 before starting to look at trailerable boats. We learned quickly to ignore anything a broker said, they either didn't know, didn't care, or outright lied to us. That's where our copy of "Inspecting the aging sailboat" by Don Casey really shone. We got to a point where 20-30 minutes or less of looking at a boat would tell us enough to either keep looking, or move along. I know a lot more about boats now than I did then, and I still think back to an Ericson 32 that we could have probably picked up for a decent price because of the diesel leak it had making the cabin very smelly. I'm pretty sure we could have cleaned that up into a very nice boat. We looked at three other C-250's and a couple of C-25's before buying our C-250. Two wing keels, and one water ballast (with a wasp's nest in the anchor locker!). Someone else on the board bought that particular boat, Sea Bear. As a side note, I told the broker about the wasp's nest, but it was still there when Sea Bear went to look at it, just another example of how smaller boats get short shrift because brokers aren't really all that invested in selling them.

My point is, and has been stated by most everyone else, there are lots of boats out there, this is a buyer's market, so you have the advantage. If you're looking for a boat at a price point, you have to know where that break over point is between a long term project, or something you can sail the same day you bought it. We definitely didn't want someone else's project boat, which is why we rejected so many. I think the C-30 we looked at probably could have been made into a nice boat, but there were too many things that bugged me about it (the steering was largely jury-rigged with too small hardware store hardware, cables, and clothesline pulleys) and that was just one thing.

If you're looking for a sail-away, it's going to cost you a bit more, if you don't mind some work, you can get a cheaper boat that needs some sweat equity put into it.

Edited by - delliottg on 06/12/2012 12:45:17

awetmore
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Response Posted - 06/12/2012 : 12:48:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by kettu7
You are right about that Cape Dory - it does look great, I already saw it on Craigslist when it was priced at $5000, but haven't spoken to the seller yet because I wanted to focus on these two C25s so far. As little as I know about boats, I've read much more about C22s/C25s than about all other boats combined
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Most of what you've learned about inspecting the Catalinas carries over to other ones. Since these designs have been around for a long time it is usually easy to find objective reviews of almost any boat design in your price range. The Practical Sailor reviews are ones that I found very helpful, and getting a subscription (which gets you access to over a decade of articles through their website) wasn't very expensive. They have reviews of the Cape Dory 25 and Catalina 25.

There is a lot to like about owning a Catalina. Parts are fairly cheap and there is a lot of great online support like this forum. However they were also discount boats designed for coastal sailing and shouldn't be the only boats that you are looking at it. It would be similar to buying a used car on Craigslist and limiting yourself to a Ford Escort while ignoring all other similar sized cars (VW Golfs, Honda Civics, etc).

I've never sailed one, but my impression is that the Cape Dorys are very traditonal and stout little offshore sailboats. They won't perform as well as a Catalina, but they are a well loved design and seem very robust.

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Response Posted - 06/12/2012 : 13:30:48

Funny Alex, we work on opposite tracks. I see things like the OP.

I know I want a sailboat. I figure out the features I want and compare a bunch of designs for what best fits my wants. Go look at a few of each design, settle on teh design I like best. Now ONLY look at that design - this way I know I'm comparing apples to apples.

I won't shop for a "light truck" or I'll end up running in circles comparing tacomas to rangers to GMC canyons, etc. I might start there, but in the end I pick one product I want, and find the one best suited to me.

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awetmore
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Response Posted - 06/12/2012 : 13:51:15

I can see that if there is a huge selection of Catalina 25s nearby. He is looking at boats that are a 3 hour drive away though, which makes it sound like he should expand his search.

As a new sailor I don't think I could really have known the manufactured differences in quality and performance of a C-25, O'Day 25, or Ericson 25+ (all three of these are boats that we looked at carefully and considered). I did a lot of research on each of them before inspections. From an inspection point of view there is more in common between an O'Day 25 tall/fin keel and a Catalina 25 tall/fin/traditional than there is between a C-25 tall/fin/traditional and a C-25 standard/swing/dinette.

I evaluated every 25'-28' boat on Seattle CL under $10k for about 2 months, and inspected (not a pro survey) 5 or 6 boats before making a decision. During that time I did learn a lot about the details of boats that I never bought, like the O'Day and Ericson. I read about dozens more that I ruled out before seeing based on their sailing or manufacturing reputation.

For the record when I bought my last car (a 1998 Subaru Impreza Outback Sport) I did look at 5 cars "identical" cars in the same day, but these cars are extremely common here. If there was a single sailboat that common then I probably would have restricted my search too, if I knew ahead of time what I was looking for.

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Joe Diver
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Response Posted - 06/12/2012 : 13:56:01

I looked at a bunch of different boat designs, layouts and brands. I decided for my first boat I wanted a Catalina 25...then I only looked at C25's when I started seriously looking for a boat.

I do the same with cars....if I decide I want a new Camaro Convertible, I don't go looking at Mustangs.

EDIT - Okay, honestly I really wanted a C27 but could not find one in my budget so the C25 was my 2nd choice.

Edited by - Joe Diver on 06/12/2012 13:59:29

kettu7
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Response Posted - 06/12/2012 : 14:43:32

I somewhat agree that I should expand my search to other 25ft boats, since there's indeed very little choice of C25's at the moment in the immediate vicinity of NYC, and I can't really always commute 3 hours one way to see boats - this boat in Baltimore was an exception because it did look great from the photos. So I'll start reading about other boats as well. O'Day's popped up when I was doing my research, but I never read too much about them. I haven't really considered Cape Dory's before. I should do my homework and read up on O'Days, Ericsson's, Hunter's, Cape Dory's and San Juan's :).

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