Association Forum - Looking for expert advice on Catalina 25 sailboat

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Looking for expert advice on Catalina 25 sailboat

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Previous Page | Next Page

Author

Topic

Page: of 5

kettu7
1st Mate

Members Avatar

29 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2012 : 17:48:15

Another C25 that I am considering going to see is this one: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem& item=251080491397& ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:MOTORS:1123#ht_2549wt_948.

From the pictures she looks like a piece of beauty, both on the outside and on the inside. What's confusing to my inexperienced eye is that I can't see the headsail on these photos - is this normal for a tall rig? Also, an inboard on C25? Is it simply a very rare thing to come by, or has it been custom fitted?

Do you guys see anything strikingly unusual about this boat from these pictures? Did anyone ever deal with the sailing center that's selling her?

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2012 : 18:20:11

IMHO, the ebay boat is a bette value. The universal diesel was a rare installation on a C-25, but not an uncommon sailboat engine. In otherwords, although you will have a boat with an unusual engine, the engine will have parts availability etc. Not many of these were made by Catalina. The inboard should keep you from cavitation woes etc. in teh choppy waters, however they aren't perfect. If teh engine has trouble, it will be an issue getting it serviced. Either learn your own mechanics or prepare to pay big bucks for a mechanic to come to you. The one advantage of an outboard is that you can pull it off teh boat and tinker with it in your own backyard.

Because of the liability associated with the inboard, I would suggest an experienced person go with you to look at the boat.

I am not sure about your question with regards to the headsail. I think you are looking for a furling system, this boat does not have one. It has hank-on sails. To outfit the boat with a furler is not technically difficult, but is expensive. You can buy one as an add-on.

You will also notice that teh interior doesn't have a keel trunk - this boat is a fin keel with 4 ft of draft. To me this is preferable for your area, but you were concerned about anchoring in shallow water. Make sure it will work for you.

It looks like someone has redone the interior on the boat. All the pinrails are missing off the backs of the settees. Not an issue, possibly an advantage and a sign of maintenance/upgrades.

Also, it looks like there are no gauges in the bulkhead. Also not a bad thing, but you will want to make sure there is at least a compass. Find out if there is some kind of a GPS included - it can cover off all your other gauge type needs.

Although this listing states that teh Tall Rig is a rarity, it really isn't. It MAY be an advantage, depending on where you are sailing, and your skill level. The decision on tall rig vs standard rig is based on where you plan to sail. The tall rig does have more canvas but more isn't always better. For inshore and lake sailing, a tall rig is preferred as it can pick up the wind at the treeline earlier. For open water, the tall rig will be overpowered earlier than a standard rig, which means either reefing, sail changes, or more effort to trim out the extra power by twisting the sails. IMHO, a good sailor can get either configuration to sail well, but your venue will determine which rig is best for you. I suggest you not worry about one or the other at this point, and just be prepared to sail undercanvassed until you figure out what you are doing. Then you can add sail area as desired.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

Members Avatar

USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2012 : 19:20:33

An inboard does have some advantages, but also consider storage. An inboard eats up a lot of it in a 25' boat. It will take out half of the quarterberth.

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2012 : 20:27:22

I think the tall rig, fin keel, double settee interior is the nicest standard configuration for a Catalina 25. I don't have tons of experience though. I'd prefer that interior over the dinette interior on my C-25.

I don't think the tall is "rare", but it certainly isn't as common as a standard. When I was getting sail quotes a couple of different lofts told me that they make about 5-7 times as many standard rig sails as tall rig ones for the Catalina 25. It would be interesting to know the numbers from the factory. The combo of tall and inboard makes it rare.

I'm not sure that I'd want the inboard, but if it is in good operational condition it won't be too bad. The biggest issue for me would be the loss of interior storage space.

If it isn't a hike for you then I'd say it is worth going to the inspection time and checking it out.

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
5352 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2012 : 21:29:09

Welcome to the forum.
The first boat looked beat to me... Too many question marks - swing keel - not needed unless you sail shallow bays and trailer. The topsides paint had me wondering - what the heck? Probably soggy plywood decking. Circular cracks on the deck are tell tale signs. Walk, no run from the NY boat.
The MD boat looks great from the photos - cleaner looking and better maintained - at least the visible signs.
The fixed keel is a better deal and the dual settee layout is the most comfortable and spacious.
A bid above $6000 in today's economy would be unwise however.

Edited by - Voyager on 06/07/2012 21:30:21

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2012 : 03:55:50

Alex - around here I think the numbers are about the same. I really think the TR vs SR preference is regional. I don't think there are any differences in TR vs SR apart from the rigging itself, so in theory it would be possible to install a TR setup on a SR boat, which would skew the numbers from the factory. If your rig failed, and what was available was a TR, I'm sure you would accept it and go with it.

TR gets a 3 second hit on PHRF, so it should be a little faster in theiry, but only marginally so.

Edited by - on

kettu7
1st Mate

Members Avatar

29 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2012 : 07:30:54

So if I got the right impression, tall rig shouldn't be overwhelming for a beginner sailor, correct? I will mostly be sailing NYC harbor and along the coasts, so picking up wind sooner seems to be an advantage - it doesn't get too windy out here.

Also, I am a little bit confused by the fact that double settee configuration conversation popped up at this point - the interior configuration on this MD boat looks the same as on NY boat, isn't it?

Does the absence of furling system imply that one should have or consider buying additional sails (only headsails?)? If so, is half of quarterberth (other half being occupied by an inboard engine) enough to store an extra sail?

I am not concerned too much about storage, because this boat is for two at the moment and we won't be doing overnight trips and won't have guests staying either. As long as half of quarterberth is enough for all the tools, extra ropes, etc, I am fine with an inboard. The question is though - does having an inboard significantly affect the weight or balance of a sailboat? Is it also mounted on the starboard side?

Edited by - on

kettu7
1st Mate

Members Avatar

29 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2012 : 07:38:24

Actually this boat already comes with a 150% genoa and a working jib, so I'm guessing it has enough storage for extra sails.

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2012 : 08:13:48

I'm guessing that the inboard is better for the trim of the boat. The 100# outboard on the starboard side makes my boat list to that side slightly and it's a bit tail heavy. The inboard is a going to be a little heavier, but is close to the center of the boat and is installed on the centerline. The Universal M12 is 175#, so nearly double the weight of an outboard.

I'm also a beginning sailor and love my tall rig. It's not too hard to get the boat moving in light air (you won't pass full on racing boats, but we passed a San Juan 28 in Duck Dodge (casual race) on Tuesday night). You just need to reef a bit earlier. For starting out you could reef and run the small jib in moderate airs and have a boat that was pretty easy to handle. I don't think I'd want the standard rig, the tall rig doesn't feel too tender to me and these boats aren't that fast already. We have a lot of light winds around Seattle.

150% genoa is huge. We have a 135% and tacking benefits greatly from having a third hand who can walk the sail around the mast. For single handing I normally run the 110%.

Sorry if I confused things by mentioning the double settee, I didn't remember the details of your first boat. The C-25 was made with three interiors and the double settee is my favorite (although I've never seen the L dinette in person). We have the dinette model which seems to be a bit more common in the mid-80s boats and it's fine, but feels a bit more cramped than the double settee.

There is other storage for sails. You can keep them in the cockpit lazarette (aka the dumpster), under the vee berth, or just out in the middle somewhere. We keep our extra jib tucked away in the removable panel under the vee berth, it is the perfect size. This makes it easy to pass them up to the foredeck through the front hatch.

Not having a roller furling system makes it easier to change headsails, but a bit more work to rig or de-rig the boat for going out. A roller furling system allows you to use one headsail to cover multiple sizes (with some limitations, there is a long thread about this right now with a title about a second forestay). It is an upgrade that can be added later, it costs about $1000 in hardware (give or take a bit depending on what system you go with) plus a new sail or modifications to an existing jib. I'll probably get a roller furling system next year to make single handing a bit easier, but I don't mind sailing with hank-on sails either. An in-between option (that I've done) is to get a foredeck sail bag that allows you to leave the jib hanked-on. It makes packing up at the end of the day slightly faster than fully removed the hanked-on sail, and makes going out much faster.

Good luck with the auction.

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2012 : 08:44:29

The ebay boat is a much better boat to start with than the swinger you first posted. As long as bidding stays in your range and a personal inspection looks good....go for it.

Edited by - on

kettu7
1st Mate

Members Avatar

29 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2012 : 09:50:56

Ok, thanks a lot again guys. I've spoken to a seller and will go for a personal inspection on Sunday when I get back to the States.

The listing mentions that sheets and halyards are ran into the cockpit for single handing, so that's a good thing (isit possible to single hand with a 150 genoa?). Seller also confirmed that the boat has a fathometer and a compass mounted on the bulkheads. Engine is said to be in good working condition, so are the sails and the rest of equipment. The only thing they mentioned is that the bottom may need a cleaning and a repaint, which probably isn't a big deal. So far it looks like a great boat! I will try to get some more pics from them before I take a road trip too.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2012 : 10:14:51

The '86 looks like it has been better maintained than the first listing. I've never heard anything negative re C25 inboard diesels. Light enough to be easily removed if/when it needs an overhaul. Baltimore is a saturated market - your advantage. A C25 tall rig with an inboard diesel (as mentioned above) is a bit of a novelty - don't dally.

Trailer? You are where?

Edited by - OJ on 06/08/2012 10:20:21

kettu7
1st Mate

Members Avatar

29 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2012 : 10:28:56

I am in NYC, so she will be slipped all season - no need for a trailer.

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2012 : 10:32:03

You can singlehand with a 150, tacking is just faster if you have crew to help move the jib across.

When you are first learning I'd suggest going out with the working jib though.

For the tall rig it is also nice to have the reefing lines run to the cockpit, but that is an easy upgrade once you've got the boat.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2012 : 10:34:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by kettu7
 Is it possible to single hand with a 150 genoa?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Absolutely. I fly my asymmetrical spinnaker singlehanded. Ain't no big thing.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2012 : 10:51:25

Once again - I encourage you to get your lessons under your belt before you get in too deep. Also be sure the admiral (wife) is onboard for sailing before you buy.

Buying is probably the cheapest part of owning a boat. Annual expenses can quickly eclipse capital.

That aside, what others have said is totally true. I often head out alone, and teh 155% is my favourite sail. Only issue is skirting it around the mast when the wind dies. Oh, and gybing with the pole up sux single-handed.

Edited by - on

kettu7
1st Mate

Members Avatar

29 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2012 : 14:02:07

Yes, you're absolutely right, I already lined up a weekend ASA-101 course next weekend. And admiral seems to be very much onboard :).

So I exchanged a few more emails with the seller snd he says that the bottom hasn't been done in 3 or 4 years and suggested that I do a paint job before or after shipping. He's not talking about anti-fouling paint like the owner of the first boat was. Should I start getting worried now? How much would it run me to get this done?

Edited by - kettu7 on 06/08/2012 14:03:14

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2012 : 21:45:07

bottom paint generally is anti-fouling paint

If everything else is good then I wouldn't let this be the blocker.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2012 : 04:34:24

Is it possible for you to see th ebaot out of teh water? That will at least let you see what kind of work is ahead on the bottom job.

Some boats that are drysailed or trailered will have a bare FG bottom, but a boat set in a slip should have barrier coat and anti-fouling paint. Having never sailed saltwater I can't say for sure, but it sounds to me like this guy is telling you the baot needs a full bottom job done, which would include scraping down whatever growth is on the bottom, inspecting (possibly reapplying) the barrier coat and anti-fouling.

Don't let this scare you. From what I understand (again, I sail freshwater) this is routine maintenance for a saltwater boat. It's the same as someone selling a used car telling you that the vehicle is past due for an oil change.

For teh saltwater contingent out there - how often do you guys pull your boats for a bottom job?

Edited by - on

pfduffy
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
317 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2012 : 05:55:43

First - my advice is worth what you are paying for it. Bottom maintenance is one of those things that can either be a relatively easy, do-it-yourself deal or reasonably expensive, pay a professional job. I fall in the do as little as possible camp. Prior owner would scrape every year and apply a very thin coat of "bottom paint" to the boat. I use quotes because he would use the same gallon of bottom paint for about 4 or 5 years. By year 2 or 3, he was effectively applying blue stain to the boat.

The first year I owned the boat (3 years ago) I did a quick scrape and then applied a coat of bottom paint. From then on the boat is power washed when hauled in the fall and I touch up bare spots in the spring. This is probably not best practice which for me would probably call for a complete stripping of the bottom, a "signal coat" of antifouling paint covered by one or 2 coats of a contrasting color of antifouling bottom paint. That's too much work for me - so I live with not having the smoothest bottom possible. I sacrifice some speed for convenience.

Edited by - on

kettu7
1st Mate

Members Avatar

29 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2012 : 08:12:21

I managed to get a few more pictures of the boat ahead of tomorrow's personal inspection. Here they are: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/c8zhhkodda0i4f2/buS3cfLyH1. A couple of things that I noticed is pretty weird looking oxidization on the bottom part of the transom and rudder (it can't be rust now, can it? the hull is fiberglass and it doesn't rust, does it?), a crack in the rudder (replace sooner than later?) and some weird paint cracks in the cockpit (sign of moisture?). Have I missed anything else?

Unfortunately it won't be possible to see the bottom before buying as she is in the water right now, which I asked about immediately after seller mentioned bottom job, but I will try to discuss this again tomorrow. Here's exactly what he said about bottom job: "Her bottom could use a cleaning and repaint.", "The bottom has not been done in 3 or 4 years. I would recommend it. I mentioned it because when the boat is hauled out for transport it is best and easiest if the power wash and scraping are done while the hull is wet. You would not have to paint it then but I would clean it then. You could paint it when you got back to NY before placing her back in the water.". When I asked whether he was talking about scraping down to the gel coat and doing actual paint job, not just applying anti-fouling coating, he said "Yes, we are talking about that. Scrape the growth from the hull, sand, and apply bottom paint. If we just applied the bottom paint without the scrape down and sanding it would not stick properly.". Although judging by his response, he's talking about anti-fouling paint, is he not? Again, I will discuss this again to confirm tomorrow.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

Members Avatar

USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2012 : 08:57:12

That brownish stain appears to be to go all around the boat at the waterline. Just guessing, but my first thought is tannin, oil or some other product in the water, not uncommon in commercial harbors.

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2012 : 09:17:15

A "bottom job" is simply considered routine maintenance for a boat kept in the water. Depends on conditions and salt or fresh, how long it will last. All you do is pull the boat, clean off the grunge, scrape and clean, then apply the new paint, an anti-fouling paint that discourages grunge.

Don't sweat it. Really. You can do it yourself, or pay someone to do it. The yard on my lake wants $1200 to do mine....but he's the only game on the lake so he's got a captive audience, so to speak. I need a bottom job...bad...or at least mow the lawn before I sail.

I don't race....and I don't care about getting that other 1/2 knot of speed I'm losing because my bottom has a layer of algae. It's not very pretty, but I can't see it. I had my boat pulled and power washed before I bought it...looking for blisters and the Catalina Smile. My boat had neither...but definitely needs new barrier coat and the keel faired.

From the pics you posted, looks like some nasty tannin staining from the water she's in. I think I can see the same thing on other boats around her. Is that a drip stain on the rudder or an actual crack? If a crack that rudder is gone. Looks like it also has they typical separation seen in rudders. The owner says the bottom hasn't been done in 3-4 years....I bet it's been longer than that. When you get to the boat, one of the things to look at is the bilge. Open that long wooden cover in the floor and take a look at the condition of the keel bolts, and the cleanliness of the bilge. That will usually tell you alot as everything (leaks) ends up in the bilge.

Edited by - Joe Diver on 06/09/2012 09:18:58

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2012 : 11:52:14

That's a normal "scum line", common in salt water, and wipes off with oxalic acid (in many hull cleaners, and also in ketchup).

On that vintage, having lived in salt water, a barrier coat under the bottom paint is less likely to be necessary. It helps prevent blistering, which is more of a problem in fresh water and with older gelcoat formulations. If you discover blisters when you prepare for painting, that's a sign that I'm wrong... But I don't expect it.

I see a bend in the bow pulpit--could be from something like a dock piling... Check the pulpit bases inside for signs of water intrusion, and the fiberglass and rub-rail there for signs of repair--I can't see any. Otherwise she looks good from here.

The '86 fin keel is fiberglass-encapsulated lead, and probably the best overall choice for your venue. The wing keel is about a foot shallower, but most WK C-25s are somewhat newer and more expensive.

One other thing about the tall rig I didn't see mentioned here is the boom is a foot lower than on the standard rig. (The mast is 2' taller, and the mains'l is 3' taller.) That makes the SR a little more comfortable in the cockpit--the boom is overhead for a guy under 6' (it's about ear-height on the TR), and there's more height for a bimini if you ever get one.

If it doesn't have them, I'd recommend two sets of reef points--the normal first reef on the TR makes the mains'l a standard rig size, while the second reef makes it approximately a reefed SR. Then I'd set up the second reef so it can be used on those days when you'll be more comfortable with a reduced sail. You'll also find that the C-25 sails nicely on its genoa alone--a very comfortable rig on a blustery day. (There's been much discussion about that here.)

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/09/2012 11:53:43

dolivaw
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
109 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2012 : 00:44:24

It's my understanding that a bottom job should last about 3 years in my area with proper care. Since the water's warmer here yours may last longer. Proper care means having the bottom cleaned twice a year. Many marinas offer periodic specials for 'quick-hauls', lifting the boat out of the water for one hour and power washing the bottom. You can also pay a diver to scrub the hull while she's in the water. Either way it's around $100.

Edited by - on

Page: of 5

Topic

Previous Page | Next Page

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.