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Looking for expert advice on Catalina 25 sailboat

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kettu7
1st Mate

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29 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/03/2012 : 16:26:27

Hello fellow sailboat owners,

Your friends on catalinaowners.com suggested that I repost my topic here to get more relevant advice. Here it comes :):

I am in the market for my first sailboat. I am not looking to participate in races, all I want right now is a fun time to spend an evening or a day on the water in or around New York City harbor, occasionally sailing south along New Jersey shore, east along Long Island shore or north on Hudson River. No craziness involved, just a fun family time.

From what I've read so far on the subject, it seems to me that Catalina 22 or 25 would be a good choice for my needs. I am more leaning towards the 25 model, because the marina where she will be docked requires owners to pay for a minimum of 25 feet slip.

I have scoured through a lot of boat classifieds websites, but only went to see one boat (see below), so as much as I am seeking a general advice, I'm also seeking advice on this particular boat. Unfortunately, there is not too many similar boats for sale around NYC area, so thus far I was only able to look at this particular one.

So long story short, this is the boat I went to see: http://newyork.craigslist.org/stn/boa/3041920382.html. It's a 1984 MkI Catalina 22 with a late 1990s 9.9HP Honda engine retractable keel and furling genoa. My first impression when I saw it was very positive, it looked like it was in a fairly good condition considering it's almost a 30 year old boat. Retractable keel mechanism appears to work fine. Some of the woodwork (to my taste, although not entirely critical), for instance, crib boards, trim rings, may need to be painted and coated, which I'd be happy to do myself. Sails are said to be in good condition, although I am yet to see that for myself when we take it for a short trip on the water next weekend. Hull below water line will be gel coated this week, so I won't have to worry about it. Above water line the hull seems to be very smooth, no rough spots. Here and there it seems to have been restored with white paint spots here and there, which I am assuming is normal (or not?), however it may need to be repainted above water line, again, to my taste. All lines, ropes and turnbuckles to be in good condition and recently replaced. Interior appears to have been well-kept, but I will be restoring some of it myself too - I'm not expecting everything to be perfect, just in a reasonably good condition.

Things that don't work are listed below. I would appreciate advice on how expensive and how hard it may be to fix:

- outgoing UHV radio signal doesn't seem to work, it is said to be a problem with an antenna, which seems like a relatively easy fix
- depth meter reader is located on stern above water line and thus doesn't always produce an expected behavior, which also doesn't seem like a big problem
- head flush is broken, so toilet wouldn't flush and flushing mechanism will need to be fixed/replaced (a problem?)

The boat comes with an alcohol-burning stove (which the previous owner hasn't used though, so it's not known to work), pop-top, cd player/fm radio/speakers. Boat owner is also willing to leave all the necessary tools behind, so I potentially can sail away on this boat and not have to worry about anything this season.

As I said, I will be meeting with him this weekend to take the boat for a ride and see it in action, but so far I am leaning more towards a yes than a no. Asking price is also reasonably fair - a $5500 altogether.
I would really appreciate expert advice on what else I should pay attention next weekend, what other questions to ask and what to check for myself.

P.S. Sorry for an extremely long post, I was just trying to give as much information as possible to get relevant advice. Thanks again for reading!

Edited by - kettu7 on 06/04/2012 17:13:01

pfduffy
Captain

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USA
317 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2012 : 18:08:29

This boat is a 1984 swing keel - same model that I own. The photos in the ad do not reveal much, but something looks funny with that head sail. I would expect the UV cover to extend down to furling drum. I would expect that these sails are not new and crisp and will need to be replaced sooner rather than later. The cabin cushions are original and if they are like mine, are likely deteriorating.

Probably the most important system on this boat is the keel lifting system. The keel on this boat is 1500 lbs and is connected to the boat forward with a pin through the keel and hangers bolted to the underside of the hull and aft with a cable that passes through the bottom of the hull and around a turning ball to a winch mounted under the companionway stairs. Without proper maintenance, this keel lifting mechanism can fail and cause the keel to free fall and cause damage to the keel trunk (under the forward end of the table in the cabin.) The cable, and turning ball need to be changed every couple of years - easy to do, but needs to be done.

I would expect that there would be plenty of boats available for this amount of money or less. I think you need to expand your search. Consider a survey once you find a boat that you think you really like.

Once you look at the boat, take lots of pictures and post them here. You will get plenty of knowledgeable feedback.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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3758 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2012 : 18:48:52

Close photos of the keel pivot while the boat is on the hard would be helpful if possible. Close photos of of everything inside, especially the accessible bilges and any areas that might have been repaired. Paint frequently means repairs have been done. If you add all of us together, we might almost make expert status. The C-25 is a great family boat. The swinger adds a little maintenance that is neither especially difficult nor expensive, but it is absolutely manditory. We look forward to hearing more from you. Gotta run, but I'll post a couple of other thoughts a little later.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2012 : 19:03:31

The nice thing about C-22's and 25's is that they are trailerable. Expand your search to all of teh Northeast for a boat on a trailer and there is no reason to settle for any boat until you find one that meets your pricepoint and expectations.

You mention "family fun" how big is the family?

The things you noted on that boat - brightwork is not a big deal. Sand it and stain it over a couple weekends.
The depth meters are often replaced with fishfinders. Far more economical, and come with the advantage of having built-in battery monitors. A $50 item.
Heads often let go. I need to work on mine right now. Look at what a full replacement unit costs most times its better to just replace the whole works than try to repair it. The replacement cost is likely less than you are imagining right now. Check locally though.
Most folks remove the alcohol stove, considering it more a liability than a feature. Many of us refer to it as "the curtain burner." Take it out of the boat before you light it the first time. Practice someplace far away from anything flammable. Not the basement. Don't ask how I know this.

The choice between a C-22 and C-25 is up to you. Honestly I have never been aboard a 22. They are more trailerable than a 25, and generally a smaller boat is cheaper to own, however a 25 will give you more room for crew and gear, and if this is a first sailboat, the 25 may actually be easier to sail than the 22 since its reponse time should be more keel-boat-ish and less dinghy-ish. I'll let others chime in with definitive opinions though.

Does any one keel configuration appeal to you more than the others? Will be the boat be slipped year-round or on the hard for winters? Are you planning overnite excursions?

Were I in your place I would seriously be thinking about a road trip to Cape Cod to look at this one that just came on this forum with a newer engine and an excellent trailer... http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=25118

Edited by - Prospector on 06/03/2012 19:06:39

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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3758 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2012 : 20:01:06

The radio could be anything from the radio, cable, connector, or antennae. An up to date DSC handheld radio would be a good solution for your planned sailing, expect to spend $100 - $150. People have favorites for features, but there is very little difference in performance among the different brands. The depth sounder can probably be moved inside to shoot through the hull. Gasket sets and rebuild kits are readily available for the head. A complete replacement had can be had for $150 - $175, but a quality portapottie (see other threads) might work well for you and avoid the issues of plumbing, holding tanks and pump outs. Most owners have abandoned the alcohol stove for Kenyon or similar brand butane or propane stoves. They are cheap and heat faster.

Edited by - on

bobsta
Deckhand

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10 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2012 : 20:40:05

I own a Catalina 25 with a fixed keel and think she sails pretty nice up here in Lake Champlain - just about the right size for the Lake on most days - big enough to sleep out a night with my wife and small enough to keep well maintained and moored in the Summers for about $3,000.00 a year. I've sailed in New York Harbor, Long Island Sound, and down the coast of NJ and if I were you I'd be thinking bigger is better - or at least a boat with a modified full keel - a Cape Dory 25 comes to mind. Swing keels in a 2 - 3 foot chop are no fun - bang,bang,bang..! Those waters are going to change suddenly on you and your gonna want to be riding on something tough and stout. The tidal currents alone are at the very least a nuisance - and motoring with the stern mounted outboard sucks most days on the Lake, never mind off coastal shorelines. I'd hold out for a 28 footer with an inboard 2 cylinder Yanmar Diesel and a well weighted displacement keel - either that or you'll be having to pick your weather for sailing very cautiously for that swing keel Catalina 25 - which will really limit your sailing days every year.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
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USA
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Response Posted - 06/04/2012 : 03:56:06

Welcome to our forum !

There are a few things that puzzle me. It may be just the terms you used to explain the condition of the wood trim and the hull below and above the waterline: "...crib boards, trim rings, may need to be painted and coated... Hull below water line will be gel coated... Above water line very smooth, no rough spots. Here and there it seems to have been restored with white paint spots...it may need to be repainted above water line, again, to my taste."

The wood trim is either stained, varnished, teak oiled, Cetol put on it. There are those that like one method over another and some that have experience with all main three - Cetol (less work than varnish), varnish, teak oil (needs to be re-applied semi-frequently) or let it weather. Inside teak/wood is usually treated with a wood finish product and may have a tint to it as well - I used Howard's Restore-A-Finish which can be used for good wood as well as refinishing if less than good condition. Howards products are now being sold in Home Depot. It is basically a wipe on and wipe off type application - Easy.

What is the story with below the waterline ? "will be gel coated" ??
If the boat is in good condition, then I assume you do not mean "gel coated" but it's having anti-fouling paint applied for keeping it in the water this season ?

Above the waterline - white paint in spots and you indicated "may need to be repainted above water line, again, to my taste". Okay, maybe the boat had one or two minor scrapes, etc and the PO did some minor repair work and/or just painted over those areas where it may have been scuffed. If you are going to just touch up those few spots, that seems okay but if you are consdering repainting the entire hull above the waterline, I would hesitate before doing that. In most cases, the existing gel coat can be worked on to remove oxidation and there are some examples in past postings of just how good the hull can look with the existing gel coat. Repainting the entire hull would need careful preparation and even then, unless experienced with doing that sort of thing on a hul, you could be prone to future areas where paint chips may come off....much better to work with the exisiting gel coat and I would think that a 1984 would have decent existing gel coat even if it presently has an oxidized appearance.

I would check up a bit on exactly what the present owner is doing to the bottom of the hull and if it is anything other than applying anti-fouling paint, then find out why. Then look over the hull above the waterline again and find out from the previous owner why there are areas of white paint in spots - have there been any repairs under that paint or just repainted because of deep scuffing to the gel coat. Looking at the photos, at least from a distance the hull looks okay on the transom. The port side looks like it is somewhat dirty or just that the hull was not regularly maintained - hard to say...maybe it is just the camera shot...or maybe I have to dust off my PC monitor. But that looks like the "before" shot of when someone then used some elbow grease to remove stains and oxidation from the gel coat and then snaps an "after" shot with the hull above the waterline looking nice and shiny just like new. Once again...hard to ell condition of the hull from the photos.

Good luck with your decision !

Edited by - OLarryR on 06/04/2012 04:10:18

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2012 : 07:34:35

Since I still own a C-22 and have just recently sold our 1984 C-25 tall rig after 5 years of owning her, I'll weigh in on some of the more obvious differences. The 1984 C-25 is a great boat (I miss mine already) and is significantly more spacious inside than a C-22, will sleep 4 fairly easily, while 4 would feel very cramped in the C-22. For a week-long sailing trip, the C-25 wins hands-down. The C-22 is okay for weekend trips for 2-3 adults who are very good friends or 2 adults with 1-2 small children. The C-25 has a separate head compartment. It's in the V-berth area on the C-22, so privacy is much more limited.
The C-22 is much less expensive to purchase and maintain, and easier to trailer and rig. So you will be able to travel with it more easily, if that is of significant interest to you. One person can raise the mast and rig it in about 20-30 minutes without mechanical assistance. It can be pulled with a V-6 powered car. The C-25 is almost twice as heavy so it requires a much larger and more powerful tow vehicle, and takes 2-3 to raise the mast safely and longer to rig/derig. However, that extra size and weight will make for a more comfortable ride in rough water conditions which you are likely to experience from others comments. Sails will be much more expensive.

If you are looking for a boat to keep in the water and do coastal sailing, I recommend looking for a boat with a fixed keel. If you decide to buy the swing keel boat and it is still on the hard, take the opportunity to replace the keel cable and turning ball before launching. One less thing to worry about for the next few years.

The cockpit layouts are almost identical, so line handling and basic boat driving will be almost the same. They are both very easy to sail and can be rigged very simply or as complex as you want to make it.
I installed a fish finder for a depth gauge, and it worked very nicely. A propane camp stove or butane table-top stove is a good replacement for the old alcohol "curtain burner" as mentioned above.

The C-22 cockpit is about 6 inches longer than the C-25 cockpit. Four people in the cockpit of the C-25 will feel a little bit more cramped for space.
The C-25 you are considering may look like it is bow heavy (surface water compared to the boat's waterline stripe). That seems to be normal with the swing keel model, especially with the keel down and an empty fresh water tank.

Edited by - dmpilc on 06/04/2012 07:46:39

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2012 : 08:33:40

Welcome aboard! You've certainly come to the best place there is for C25 owners.

While I don't see anything wrong with the boat you're looking at, the ad doesn't really tell us much at all. Looks like a decent boat....but for $5500 (asking isn't always the selling price) I would look around at other C25's, expanding your search area, and compare them.

Make the effort to go look at Pat's boat Prospector linked you to. Good boat, with a motor and trailer...that's a great price/deal. Consider that any swing keel model you buy, you will replace the necessary lifting mechanism hardware before doing anything else....unless the owner can provide evidence that is had been done in the last couple of years....so you KNOW the condition and maintenance interval.

A trailer and a swinger is a very flexible package, but consider you will need a very capable tow vehicle. At a minimum, a long wheelbase 3/4 ton truck. This can be debated ad nauseum, but I will tell you from experience towing a 30', 8000# travel trailer....it's not the pulling....it's the stopping and the controlling. Most "tow ratings" these days are a joke on passenger SUV's.

As far as your usage...you seriously can't go wrong with a C25 as a first sailboat. Personally, I think it's one of the best all around first sailboats ever made. It's small enough to not cost $$$$$ for everything, easy to handle, big enough to be adequately comfortable for weekends spent aboard, can handle moderately rough conditions, easy to maintain, very forgiving of your stoopid moments (you will have them, we all do), rugged and well built. They are for inland lakes and coastal cruising though, so don't plan on sailing to Bermuda....although, with enough sailing experience and a great weather window it could be done.

Look around...learn about the C25's, what they came with and the different model years....no harm in looking everywhere just to see what's out there, what they're asking and all. Knowledge is power.

The most desirable C25's seem to be the ~'89 wing keels with trailers. Some even have inboard diesels. They tend to go for $12k to $14k though. Check out Doc's [url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24942"]'87 winger Destiny[/url].

Edited by - on

kettu7
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 06/04/2012 : 09:42:45

Wow, guys, this feedback is much greater than I could have hoped for, thank you very much! Let me start off by apologizing if I use the wrong terms to describe specific points about this boat - I don't yet know too much about boats or sailing itself, but being a fast learner and a big enthusiast when it comes to hobbies, I am sure I'll get better very soon.

Let me try to try to better explain some of the things now that I got some feedback.

First of all, from what I read so far I was under the impression that swing keel swings to port side and starboard side to increase draft, while retractable keel swings up and down, however from digging further this morning, it appears that this is indeed a swing keel model as there's no retractable keel C25's made.
Some of you noted that for sailing coastal waters a fixed keel model is better than a swing keel - why is that the case? I was under the impression that swing keel gives the boat more stability, which is something I would definitely like considering I have very limited sailing experience at this point. Also why I like the swing keel option is the ability to come close to the shore in shallow waters - for instance, sail to Sandy Hook, anchor and swim there.

Speaking of looking at better-trailerable boat options like C22, for my needs owning a trailer and having to store it somewhere in my situation would be more of a liability, than a feature that I would like to have. The boat will be slipped all summer and then lifted and stored on land at the same marina all winter. I do not anticipate taking long road trips with the sailboat as living in the city I don't have a truck (or any other suitable vehicle for that matter), and I mostly anticipate sailing not more than 20-30 miles away from New York harbor. Also, while I think I could justify spending more than 5-6k buying a better or newer boat, I think it maybe an over-commitment being a newbie sailor.

We are a small family of two, probably growing to be three in the next couple of years, and we don't anticipate often inviting anyone to the boat, so a 25 footer should be a good compromise between its size, my lack of sailing experience and our needs.

Speaking of replacing swing keel lifting mechanism, I would assume that this has to be done on land or while the boat is in sling. Is that so? I will definitely ask for some proof of when it was last replaced when I next see the boat. How much would it cost to have this replaced if need be (parts and labour)?

OLarryR, thanks for explaining the gel coating vs anti-fouling paint thing. PO is indeed going to apply the antifouling paint to the hull below water line to prevent marine life buildup for this season, so the bottom psrt of the hull probably isn't a concern at this point. Also, having read what you said about the part of the hull above water line - yes, it does look like it's oxidized as the color of the hull is mostly grey-ish/brown-ish instead of being white. Obviously now I'm not considering painting the hull as oxidization is a great explanation for hull condition. How hard is it clean it to give the gel coat it's original color?

Also, sailing in coastal waters and the haror, why is having an outboard engine a nightmare? Is it because of the currents/tides?

Again, thanks very much guys for your awesome advice!

Edited by - on

pfduffy
Captain

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USA
317 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2012 : 10:20:00

Replacing the lifting cable is easy and relatively inexpensive and must be done while the boat is on the hard. Catalina Direct has a kit for this (as well as every other part for a C-25): http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_ID=1624&ParentCat=108
I did the work myself accomplishing the task in about an hour - while entertaining my four year old.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 06/04/2012 : 10:22:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by kettu7
 Speaking of looking at better-trailerable boat options like C22, for my needs owning a trailer and having to store it somewhere in my situation would be more of a liability, than a feature that I would like to have. The boat will be slipped all summer and then lifted and stored on land at the same marina all winter. I do not anticipate taking long road trips with the sailboat as living in the city I don't have a truck (or any other suitable vehicle for that matter), and I mostly anticipate sailing not more than 20-30 miles away from New York harbor.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Bias alert (I have a fin keel C25), but if you don't have a need to trailer, you might want to consider a fin (or even a wing) keel C25.

Edited by - on

Sam001
Vice Commodore

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USA
441 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2012 : 10:46:30

Welcome to the forum! You will find a great group here. Most know I looked for a long time in several states. (8 months) I weighed all of my pluses and minuses and decided to buy Bobbin.

You really need to make a list of what you really want and what you can repair. Mine is an 82 Catalina Swing Keel Dinette model, hull #2963, full cushions recently done
Roller furling, Custom Build Galvanized CC Rider Trailer with surge brakes, whisker pole and small solar panel. Two extra head sails. She is sound.

She is powered by a 2000 Nisan NS9.8BEF4 electric start, very long shaft motor.

The price value decision was that she had a lot to offer, needed some TLC, and was a blank canvas I could mold into the boat I wanted. And priced really low. I had the bottom painted at the yard and new brakes put on the trailer (did not want 4500 pounds not stopping behind me!)

She is on the hard in the back driveway in Mt Pleasant SC –outside Charleston, SC-and getting the finishing touches. I took her apart and re-assembling her to what I want. When I finish, she will be fit for me at thousands less than I could have bought the boat. Just have to add a little elbow-grease.

I talked to the last three owners by phone, tracing her linage back to 1997. Most of her life was on NC lakes, recently the last 3 years in Washington, NC on the Pamlico River.

I registered with the association so I can be a full-fledged member, and I recommend you to as well.

As most would say, it was not the end of my search, it is the beginning of the Catalina experience. Good luck in your search and do read these posts - and technical pages - to give you a complete look at the 25. It was the boat that fit for me.

Sam

Edited by - on

dolivaw
Navigator

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USA
109 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2012 : 10:50:11

Edited by - dolivaw on 06/04/2012 10:51:30

kettu7
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 06/04/2012 : 11:02:54

Here are a few pictures that I managed to snap when I first went to see her. This may explain better some of the points that I brought up about hull condition and wood trim.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/s5d6tjzt5xgm85t/FvzCPKDvv9

Also, does this sailboat have a bilge pump and is it an area of concern too?

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2012 : 11:15:28

Haven't read all of the above but my first impression is the seller is asking way too much money for this boat. As someone above recommends - keep looking, compare, contrast.

Edited by - OJ on 06/04/2012 11:20:53

dolivaw
Navigator

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USA
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Response Posted - 06/04/2012 : 11:25:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by kettu7
 Here are a few pictures that I managed to snap when I first went to see her. This may explain better some of the points that I brought up about hull condition and wood trim.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/s5d6tjzt5xgm85t/FvzCPKDvv9

Also, does this sailboat have a bilge pump and is it an area of concern too?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

From those pics it looks like the topsides (hull above the waterline) just need a good buffing/polishing. C25s have a manual bilge pump. You can see where the handle attaches in the cockpit in your 2nd picture. More than likely there's an electric bilge pump in the bilge. If you're keeping her in the water, you'll definitely want the electric bilge pump to be in good working condition. They're relatively inexpensive... Around $100 for a good one.

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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1144 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2012 : 11:25:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by kettu7
 First of all, from what I read so far I was under the impression that swing keel swings to port side and starboard side to increase draft, while retractable keel swings up and down, however from digging further this morning, it appears that this is indeed a swing keel model as there's no retractable keel C25's made.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Your impression here is incorrect. The swing keel is the same as a retractable keel, it is lifted out of the water to allow the boat to have lower draft for trailering or docking in shallow water. The difference is that it swings up backwards (there is a pivot on the front), where a retractable keel is lifted straight up.

You actually don't want a keel that swings left and right, the keel acts as a wing underwater and provides lift that pushes against the sails, keeping the boat upright. It isn't only a big mass (although it has that purpose too). I don't think that any sailboat has a keel that swings side to side, and certainly not one that does it without being controlled.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by kettu7
Speaking of looking at better-trailerable boat options like C22, for my needs owning a trailer and having to store it somewhere in my situation would be more of a liability, than a feature that I would like to have. The boat will be slipped all summer and then lifted and stored on land at the same marina all winter.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I am in the same position as you and choose a fin keel boat. It sails better (according to most reports) and there is less to maintain and break. For my purposes (my boat will be in the water year round) a swing keel is a liability, not an advantage.

You should look at a lot of boats, not just Catalinas. In Seattle there are many boats available for sale in that $5000-$10000 price range. We looked at boats ranging from Kent Ranger 24s up to a San Juan 30. The Catalina 25 that we purchased had the best mix of being in good condition structurally and mechanically (cosmetically it was a bit of a mess), fitting our space needs well, and having good reputations for sailing. I also looked at ODay 25 Tall and Ericson 25+ boats that were at least of nice of a design, probably nicer construction, but both had major structural issues that prevented us from buying then. The larger boats (like the San Juan 30) were just bigger than what we needed and more expensive. I'm glad that I didn't go in that direction.

Finally, I do think that it is worth taking sailing lessons before buying a boat. That will give you a much better impression of what you might like and will make it easier to evaluate what you are looking at. My sailing lessons were on a very simple keel boat, but provided a lot of basics. I've also become friends with my sailing instructor and continue to sail with him. Overall it was the best $600ish that I've spent on sailing (that was for classes for my wife and I together). I also go head first into hobbies, but as I've gotten older I've come to recognize when spending a little money up front propels me even faster into the hobby.

Double finally, keep some money in your budget for repairs, no matter what boat you buy. Pretty much every used boat is going to require you to catch up on deferred maintenance. Our boat was a little cheaper than yours, but I've more than doubled the original investment in new sails, rudder, cabin cushions, rigging repair and improvements, and small accessories that add up quickly. A Catalina 22 will be cheaper there (sails seem to be about 60% of the price of Catalina 25 ones). Next year should be much cheaper.

Edited by - on

dolivaw
Navigator

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Response Posted - 06/04/2012 : 11:32:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by awetmore
 [quote]Originally posted by kettu7
 Finally, I do think that it is worth taking sailing lessons before buying a boat.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I'll 2nd that. Get ASA-101 certified. Sail in other people's boats. Ask TONS of questions. Read, read, read. Make lots of really stupid mistakes. At least, that's what I did. Although not necessarily in that order. =)

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Prospector
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Response Posted - 06/04/2012 : 11:53:39

Awetmore - it looks like he's comparing canting keels to retractable keels. He is thinking a daggerboard which slides up into the boat as opposed to the swing (or pivot) keel provided on the Catalina 25's. If you paid less than $500,000 for your boat and the keel moves side to side (canting), there is something wrong.

Having read the rest of this thread, I agree with the comments about a fin keel. If you want a boat that provides a family getaway and as little maintenance as possible and be moored in saltwater. If you want to swim off the boat consider an inflatable "island" to float off teh transom. We have one and sometimes it stays tethered to the boat as a dive platform, and sometimes gets towed 50 ft towards shore where water is standing-depth.

You will fall in love with EVERY boat you go see. Resist the temptation to buy each one in turn. build a spreadsheet and compare pros and cons until you find the best value you can.

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Stinkpotter
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Response Posted - 06/04/2012 : 13:42:22

For the area where you plan to use her, the C-25 is probably a better choice over the C-22. It has about double the displacement and around three times the ballast for a much more comfortable, secure ride through the chaotic chop around NYC. The C-22 will feel like a cork in a washing machine there.

Are you familiar with boating in New York Harbor and the Hudson? If not, I would try to spend a little time with someone who is... The intense commercial traffic, NYPD, Homeland Security (gunboats), currents, and chop coming from every direction all the time make it a very "interesting" venue.

If you don't plan to put the boat on a trailer, the swing keel is a dubious choice. It's 1500 lbs. of cast iron on a pivot pin, lifted by a cable using a winch in the cabin--all of which require periodic maintenance, especially in salt water. You have enough things to learn about and take care of without that. The one advantage would be if you plan to go to Great South Bay on Long Island, known for its skinny water. The C-25 was also made with a fin keel (4' draft), and a shallower wing keel in the later production years. The wing eventually replaced the swing keel. At a minimum, I would ask to see the paperwork for keel maintenance--both to see that it has been done, and to understand what you'll need to do.

For anyone with little or no sailing experience, buying a boat as substantial as the C-25, when you find the one you think you want, I recommend making your offer contingent on a professional "marine survey." You can (and should) attend the survey, which takes a few hours--take a clip-board and ask questions. $400 (?) sounds like a lot, but it will help prevent nasty surprises later, and give you a feel for the repairs and maintenance that we all face. It can give you some hard evidence for negotiating the price down, and sometimes it causes a buyer to walk away from a boat--in which case it's money well-spent! (And some insurers require a survey for older boats.)

The surveyor should look closely at the area around the front of the keel trunk. Cracks or evidence of repairs there suggest a broken cable that caused the keel to do a free-fall. These things have been successfully repaired, but it is something to know about. The rest of the boat is pretty generic--the decks, cockpit sole, and cabin-top are cored with plywood--a moisture meter can detect areas where seepage may have caused rot inside. (The hull is solid fiberglass.) The rudder on that vintage tends to split at the seam between the two halves of the fiberglass shell, generally caused by swelling of the wood core at the top. Many of us have replaced that rudder with one that is better designed. You want a strong, reliable rudder in those waters.

Also, I agree with Larry's comments on paint... Bottom paint is one thing (and necessary for mooring in salt water)--paint on fiberglass anywhere above the waterline could be a sign of trouble, and will be maintenance issue forever. There are many long discussions here about finishing the exterior teak--no need to get into it now.

A great feature of the C-25 is a third-party supplier of upgrades and replacement parts, called [url="http://catalinadirect.com/"]Catalina Direct[/url] (in CA). Check out their website and peruse the "stuff" and recommendations they offer. If you buy the boat, get their $10 "Handbook", and remember, BOAT stands for Break Out Another Thousand.

Good luck in your quest, and keep the questions coming!

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/04/2012 13:54:46

awetmore
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Response Posted - 06/04/2012 : 13:45:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dolivaw
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by awetmore
 [quote]Originally posted by kettu7
 Finally, I do think that it is worth taking sailing lessons before buying a boat.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I'll 2nd that. Get ASA-101 certified. Sail in other people's boats. Ask TONS of questions. Read, read, read. Make lots of really stupid mistakes. At least, that's what I did. Although not necessarily in that order. =)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I don't think that you need to put off buying a boat forever, I've certainly learned a lot by purchasing my own. I think I got the boat about 6 weeks after finishing my class. I also don't think I'd have found it as easy to find other people to sail with until I bought a boat (since most of the sailors that I'm hanging out with I've met on the docks or water).

The class that I took wasn't ASA certified, but it is the one that my few pre-boat-ownership sailing friends recommended. The primary downside of not being ASA certified is that we couldn't run out an charter a boat. Our class was 2 students (my wife and I), 1 instructor, 1 boat. We were hands on the whole time (scheduled for 12 hours, we probably had more like 15 hours), even in our first 5 minutes the two of us were controlling the boat. Our boat had no motor, so we sailed into and out of dock...that'll get you good at controlling speed and sailing in tight spaces.

The ASA-101 classes around here seem to be 4 students, 1 instructor, 1 boat, so the students aren't hands on sailing the whole time. The class length is about the same.

Taking the class made me focus on things that I'd not have done on my own, like learning how to heave-to, doing man overboard drills, and paying better attention to sail trim. Learning on a simple boat (the Blanchard Junior that we sailed has a total control set of main sheet, jib sheet, 1' long jib traveler, no main traveler, and a cleated off downhaul and outhaul) let me concentrate on the basics instead of getting lost in more advanced controls.

Read, read, read, make stupid mistakes, I've done plenty of that :).

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dolivaw
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Response Posted - 06/04/2012 : 16:21:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by awetmore
 
I don't think that you need to put off buying a boat forever, I've certainly learned a lot by purchasing my own.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Oops... You're right Alex. I didn't mean to put it that way. I wouldn't put off buying. Getting the lessons before you do is a great idea though. It will help build confidence and skills as well as give you a considerable amount of knowledge you can use in choosing and buying. Everything else I mentioned is on-going.

The ASA courses have another advantage over non-ASA training... It's a structured curriculum requiring you to study... There WILL be a test. I can't say the course and instructors are the best. I learned to sail better from others than I did from ASA, but it did give me a solid set of knowledge, terminology and skills to start with.

Back on topic though... I think there's a lot of room for negotiation in that price. A swing keel probably isn't the best choice for that location though. Especially since there's no need to trailer.

Edited by - dolivaw on 06/04/2012 16:27:54

kettu7
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Response Posted - 06/04/2012 : 17:10:38

Thanks a lot again guys! What I plan to do now is go look at how it sails on Sunday, get more pictures of rigging, sails and anything else that looks suspicious. Then I'm going to take ASA sailing course the following weekend, and will keep looking at the alternatives meanwhile. Although to be perfectly honest there is no C25's in 100 miles radius within 4-6k budget, the other one that I like a lot is 2001 MkII C25 that goes for 12k, but that would definitely be overcommitment at this point.

I will post pictures of this boat when I see her next. I also agree that I should try to bring the price down on this boat as I already counted at least 3-4 fixes that need to be done that add up to some $600+ at the very least.

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Stinkpotter
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Response Posted - 06/04/2012 : 18:20:02

First, there is no such thing as a 2001 C-25. Production ended in 1991. Second, C-25s were not designated as MkII, etc., except informally within this group, where the last and best version, made from 1989 - 1991 are sometimes considered "MkIV". 2001 could be a C-250, a very different boat from the C-25, but its "MkII" version came just a few years ago. Are you talking about a C-22 MkII? That's a nice little trailerable daysailer with a sit-inside cabin, but relatively speaking, the "cork" I mentioned earlier.

You should probably look at a C-22, just for comparison purposes... and at everything else in your range. Every boat you look at will help you to understand what you're looking for, and will put every other boat in perspective.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/04/2012 18:23:31

Joe Diver
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Response Posted - 06/04/2012 : 20:12:34

Here are two books I consider "must haves" for any new sailor:

[url="http://www.amazon.com/Caseys-Complete-Illustrated-Sailboat-Maintenance/dp/0071462848/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1338865736&sr=8-1"]Complete Illustrated Sailboat Maintenance Manual[/url]

This is a combination of Don's books and is an incredible resource of information. Get this and read the first section on buying and inspecting a sailboat. THEN go look at boats. You'll be much better equipped to sort out what you're looking at. The rest of the book will be invaluable as you work on the boat, make repairs and upgrades.

[url="http://www.amazon.com/Annapolis-Book-Seamanship-Edition-Revised/dp/0684854201/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1338865875&sr=1-1"]The Annapolis Book of Seamanship[/url]

This will teach you not only how to sail, but how to be a sailor as well. IMHO, it's the best learning book out there. If you have Netflix, you can borrow the 5 companion DVD's to the book. Study the book, then go out and apply what you've learned in your boat. Come back and re-read it for better understanding, then move to the next bit. In time, through reading and practice, you'll be well on your way!

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