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John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/13/2007 : 14:56:56

Since the telltale is published in a "closed" area on the site, where is the appropriate place to raise specific questions?

John Russell
1999 C250 SR/WK #410
Bay Village, Ohio
Sailing Lake Erie
Don't Postpone Joy!

Edited by - on

SailCO26
Captain

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USA
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Response Posted - 12/13/2007 : 14:58:34

I think you've just found it.... and raised a specific question. :)

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 12/13/2007 : 15:08:24

I was thinking about questions that include numbers.

Edited by - on

SailCO26
Captain

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Response Posted - 12/13/2007 : 15:34:23

Apologies for being the smartass, I couldnt pass up swinging at a fat pitch like that.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5891 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2007 : 21:31:52

Why would it be published in a restricted area? In the past it was published in the Mainsheet and also in the open forum.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2007 : 08:20:38

The Mainsheet only goes to Association members. I think it is a good idea to publish the minutes in the Tell Tale and post it in the restricted area, it is Association news and the Association area needs to be better utilized. I think it is especially appropriate to post financials in the closed area. The only problem I can see with it is the password issue, it seems like every time something gets posted in the closed area 20 people ask how to get in.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2007 : 08:51:29

Maybe your question should go via e-mail to an officer...

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 12/14/2007 : 09:12:32

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 I'm missing somethingl, John... Whaddaya mean by "specific questions" that you wouldn't raise on the forums?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Bringing the numbers to this forum kind of defeats the purpose of publishing them in the member's only area. I just didn't want to insult anyone of there was and alternative. There's obvously nothing to hide there.

Edited by - John Russell on 12/14/2007 09:20:20

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 12/14/2007 : 09:48:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Frank Hopper
 The Mainsheet only goes to Association members. I think it is a good idea to publish the minutes in the Tell Tale and post it in the restricted area, it is Association news and the Association area needs to be better utilized. I think it is especially appropriate to post financials in the closed area. The only problem I can see with it is the password issue, it seems like every time something gets posted in the closed area 20 people ask how to get in.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
That's exactly why the Treasurer's report shouldn't be there. It should be readily accessible to everyone, and, when large numbers of members have to go to the trouble of asking for the secret code, just to see the treasurer's report, it is a significant impediment to the members who want to be informed about those matters. By your own representation, 20 people are impeded every time something gets posted there. That's a lot of members who are discouraged from keeping informed of the club financial situation, for no good reason.

Moreover, we're not talking about preserving the personal financial status of individuals, who have an understandable interest in protecting their privacy. We're talking about the financial report of a non-profit association. The members' best interests are really promoted by full and open disclosure, not by keeping the information close to the vest. Every multinational corporation publishes its financial report and prospectus, and sends it to every shareholder, and makes it available to anyone who wants to know about the corporation's finances. It is that openness that prevents hanky-panky, and that's why corporations are required by law to furnish such information openly. What is it about our little low budget association of sailors that requires secrecy?

This interest in secrecy began when one of the officers apparently resented the fact that I asked some probing questions and expressed some opinions that he apparently didn't want to hear. At that time, he threatened to oust me from the association, on the pretense that I had sold my Catalina 25, and was no longer entitled to be a member. I understand that the other officers wouldn't support that proposal.

I'm also a dues paying member of this Association, and have served it officially and unofficially since 1983, and have a long-standing interest in it's welfare, as well as an interest in how my dues are being used. I don't understand how it could possibly be in the association's best interests to exclude me, and others similarly situated, from knowledge of it's income and expenses.

Am I the only person who thinks it bizarre to have a member actually ask how he can privately ask a question about the Association's financial report, so that "unauthorized" people won't know about it? What's next? A secret handshake?

Edited by - on

1981capri
Navigator

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Response Posted - 12/14/2007 : 10:09:45

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I'm also a dues paying member of this Association, and have served it officially and unofficially since 1983, and have a long-standing interest in it's welfare, as well as an interest in how my dues are being used. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I don't understand. The report is right there in the members area in the Telltales. If you are a dues paying member then you can log in and read it. It all looks reasonable to me. I don't see that there is any attempt to make it secret or any hanky-panky. As far as where to post questions, it seems like these type of discussions might be more appropriate for the " Association Business " -> " Member Feedback " forum.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 12/14/2007 : 10:16:32

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 I'm missing somethingl, John... Whaddaya mean by "specific questions" that you wouldn't raise on the forums?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Bringing the numbers to this forum kind of defeats the purpose of publishing them in the member's only area. I just didn't want to insult anyone of there was and alternative. There's obvously nothing to hide there. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">What is the purpose of publishing them in the members only area? It's obviously to exclude some people from access to the information. Why? How does it serve the best interests of the Association to exclude some dues paying members from information about how their dues are being used?

There is no legitimate purpose to be served by excluding some of us from that information. I'll concede that it prevents some of us who have long-standing experience with the Association from being able to ask sometimes probing and perhaps uncomfortable questions about the Association's budget, but that's a bad thing, unless you just want to stifle experienced people from asking those pesky questions that make you feel uncomfortable. If those pesky questions make you feel uncomfortable, it's just possible that it is because you don't have adequate answers to the questions. If that's the case, then maybe it's good that someone is asking them.

Let me be clear. I'm not so paranoid as to think anyone is "hiding" this information from me, or from others who are similarly situated, for any specific, sinister reason. I think some officer asked, "Where should we publish the financial report? Should we post it on the open forum, or should we post it in the 'members only' section?" When that question was asked, nobody thought to ask the questions that I'm asking, and it just seemed like a good idea to post them in the members only area, because it just seems like finances ought to be private. But, that's just not true with respect to a non-profit association of recreational sailors.

Some of us who no longer own Catalinas can still provide a service to the Association and it's members by asking these questions that others don't think to ask, but we can only do so if we're kept informed as to the facts.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2007 : 12:07:23

Steve, I guess I misunderstand something, I am under the impression that you are an Association member. Since you no longer have a Catalina 25 you are a non-voting member but I thought still a member. If non-voting members cannot access the members only area then I think that is an issue that needs to be fixed.
As for the validity of things being in the members only area, well I have always been in favor of and voted for dropping the password and making it available to everyone. That comes from being Secretary and spending an inordinate amount of time explaining to people that their Forum log-on and members only id and password were two different things. The point has always been made that there are things there that we by agreement have promised to reserve for members only; like the Boat US membership discount and click through discounts to other sites and that the answer to people loosing track of how to get in was to increase the traffic so people would remember how and do it often. That argument has always won the day and I have always lost the argument to open the area up.

Edited by - on

SailCO26
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2007 : 12:34:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by 1981capri
 The report is right there in the members area in the Telltales. If you are a dues paying member then you can log in and read it.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Am I missing something here? As Dan stated, what's the issue? If you're a member, you have access. If you're not, what are you waiting for?

Nothing is being "hidden" or kept "in secret" from the members. I was able to access the TellTales by using the id/password that was provided to me when I paid my dues as a member.

The only people being "exluded" from this information (and we're not just talking financials here, we're talking about the assn newsletter and everything else in the MEMBERS area) are non-members. You want the newsletter (and everything else in the MEMBERS area), join the assn.

As I understand it: PUBLICLY TRADED corporations are required to release their financials to the public. NON-PUBLICLY traded corporations are only required to release their financials to shareholders. ie MEMBERS.

Why do you feel you're being prevented from asking questions? Why do you feel you're being exluded from information? You did say you ARE a paid member, right?

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby 
This interest in secrecy began when one of the officers apparently resented the fact that I asked some probing questions and expressed some opinions that he apparently didn't want to hear. At that time, he threatened to oust me from the association, on the pretense that I had sold my Catalina 25, and was no longer entitled to be a member. I understand that the other officers wouldn't support that proposal.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Are we talking about the CURRENT officers??? I agree that you have every right (and I strongly support those rights) to review and question what is reported in the financials. As a paying member, you have access to review those reports. If you're a paying member, I would strongly argue against "oust"ing you from the assn simply for asking questions or because you no longer own a C25/250/CP25. As far as I know, OWNERSHIP is not a requirement for membership.

Have a question about what's reported? If necessary ask in the General Forum. Better yet, use the Assn Business forum as Dan mentioned. If you dont want it posted for the world or the members to see, ALL of the officers and staff have contact information posted on the Flag Line & Staff page. GRANTED, this was just recently updated, but I dont see where anyone is hiding anything, either themselves or assn information.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">If those pesky questions make you feel uncomfortable, it's just possible that it is because you don't have adequate answers to the questions. If that's the case, then maybe it's good that someone is asking them.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">IF there are questions to which we do not have adequate answers, then I agree that they need to be asked. That being said, can I ask what "pesky questions" we're referring to? Feel free to email me directly if you'd rather not post them here.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> I don't understand how it could possibly be in the association's best interests to exclude me, and others similarly situated, from knowledge of it's income and expenses<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Please provide specifics on exactly HOW we are exluding you, and/or other members???

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">...people are impeded every time something gets posted there<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">The ONLY impediment to members accessing the Members area is their own inability to retain a PREVIOUSLY PROVIDED user id/password. There's no secret handshake required to get an id/password - it's provided to members on joining the assn (at least it was to me). I believe the issue mentioned was that whenever something gets posted to the members area and announced to the public that there is a flurry of activity by members who lost/forgot their logon info. This goes for TellTale as well as financials.

There's been a lot of ranting and raving going on lately, but I have yet to see anything of substance being brought up. If you have a specific beef about what's happening today, please bring it up.

We wont be able to please everyone, but (and I hope that in this case I can speak for each member of the board in this case) OUR GOAL is to do what we feel is best for the assn as a whole.

Jim

Edited by - on

1981capri
Navigator

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USA
175 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2007 : 13:01:27

Jim - You don't know about the secret handshake either?

It is obvious that those C25 guys who have been around since the dawn of time have a secret handshake and are conspiring to get the keg of good stuff for their nationals. The CP25 nationals will get a short case of Hamm's

and the C250 guys will be paying $2.50 for an 8 oz cup

Edited by - on

SailCO26
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2007 : 13:08:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by SailCO26
 As far as I know, OWNERSHIP is not a requirement for membership.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Let me correct myself somewhat - per the below, you must be an owner to: 1. Vote; 2. Hold office; or 3. "skipper" in a sanctioned event.

It also says that "Membership" benefits include "access to an Association website". There's no distinction made between "regular" membership and "honorary" membership as far as access to the Members Area goes.

Can anyone tell me if "honorary" members are excluded from the Members Area?

Jim

Source: (http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/bylaws.asp)
III. MEMBERSHIP:

Regular Member: A Regular Member shall be defined as the owner or part owner of a Catalina 25, Catalina 250 or Capri 25 sloop that joins the Association, is a Corinthian (i.e., amateur of high integrity), and whose membership dues are paid current. Regular Member status shall be extended to those ownership-partners (financial, marital or otherwise) that are also Corinthians, as designated on the membership application at the time of registration. Regular Members, in good standing, may vote in elections per Article VIII, hold office per Article IV, and skipper a Catalina 25, Catalina 250 or Capri 25 sloop in sanctioned races in accordance with the By-Laws and Design Class Rules. Voting for revisions to Design Class Rules (Article VIIII, Section A.) may only be cast by Regular Members within the Design Class to which the Regular Member belongs.
Honorary Member: An Honorary Member shall be defined as any other person that joins the Association and whose membership dues are paid current. Honorary Members may not vote, may not hold office and may not skipper a Catalina 25, Catalina 250 or Capri 25 sloop in sanctioned races unless approved by a vote of the Officers (Article VIII, Section B).
Dues: Annual membership dues must be paid current in order for a Member to be considered in good standing. A vote of the Officers (Article VIII, Section B) shall be needed to adjust the annual membership dues amount, such adjustment not to occur more than once yearly, as seen fit to meet the financial needs of the Association. However, any annual increase or decrease in excess of ten percent (10%) shall be fixed by a vote of the Regular Members (Article VIII, Section A)
Membership Benefits: The benefits of membership include 1) those derived from the Objectives of the Association, 2) quarterly receipt of the Mainsheet Magazine, and 3) access to an Association website.

Edit: to change "drive" to "skipper". That's probably not technically an owner/driver rule, so what does the "skipper" do on a race boat???

Edited by - SailCO26 on 12/14/2007 13:10:57

SailCO26
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2007 : 13:14:37

and the C250 guys will be paying $2.50 for an 8 oz cup

.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">We'll have completed the course long before them, we'll just pirate their brew. Or I'll bring out a keg or 2 of homebrew.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2007 : 13:33:21

OK... John and all other members can see the financials... John wanted to post a question about them, but since the financials are in the "Members Only" section, he figured he shouldn't post it in the public area. Steve thinks it should all be public--that the financials shouldn't be for members only, and that John's (and others') questions should be public, too. I agree. A non-profit's financials are, I believe by legal definition, public information.

Edited by - on

1981capri
Navigator

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USA
175 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2007 : 13:37:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">We'll have completed the course long before them, we'll just pirate their brew. Or I'll bring out a keg or 2 of homebrew. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I don't know. Those guy's are pretty smart. They might just head back for the dock and drink all the brew while we are out racing and when we get back they will be just heading out for leisurely evening cruise.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2007 : 13:52:10

I continue to be astonished by the rancor some people have about the association. Posting the minutes and financials in the Members area is understandable and easy. If you cannot remember your password then perhaps you shouldn't be using the Internet. Geesh.

Being a member should have some privileges. Someone in another forum suggested that non-members in their forum do not get "ranks" for posting. They are listed as "Guest." Seems minor but it is a distinction and may encourage people to join. Ditto for the minutes and financial information. That should be for members.

I think some people have an axe to grind and long memories of some transgression that they just cannot get over. My .02

Edited by - Nautiduck on 12/14/2007 14:22:23

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2007 : 14:29:58

You guys all realize that this is a little club of guys and girls that like to get together and BS about what they do with their toys, right?

There are too many serious things in life to get one's shorts in a bunch over.

The member's area could be made easier to access by one of the computer geniuses in the group. Something like when I sign in with my username and password, the system checks to see if my dues are paid and gives me total access or restricts me to the "public" areas if they're not paid.

From now on, my comments will be about weather and religion. Politics sucks.

Edited by - on

wmeinert@kconline.com
Past Commodore

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USA
353 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2007 : 14:32:26

Not only the C-25/250 & Capri 25 Association members receive the Mainsheet, any one who pays the magazine subscription cost can receive it without membership to our organization. Also every other Catalina Yatch Association receives the same magazine and to date I have never seen or witnessed their financial reports published. The Mainsheet does not drive the membership of this organization. If any member has a question about the associations financial statement please ask me directly, at wmeinert@kconline.com or call me personally at anytime at 260-982-1929, If I as your elected Commodore can't answer the questions I will dam sure find someone who can!

Edited by - wmeinert@kconline.com on 12/14/2007 14:33:29

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5891 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2007 : 08:38:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">You did say you ARE a paid member, right?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">No, I didn't say that, but, yes, I am a dues paid member.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Am I missing something here? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Yes, you are. You're relatively new to the Association, and apparently aren't fully informed about things that happened before you joined. At the same time that I was threatened with expulsion from the Association, a long-time contributing member was, in fact, expelled. That action certainly gave me some cause for concern that the threat was not an idle one. I was recently told, by a person whom I trust completely, the reasons behind that particular expulsion, and, based on that information, now believe that action was justified. That doesn't change the fact that, for a period of years, I was concerned about the possibility that someone might want to cause trouble for me.

Some time after I sold my boat, I tried repeatedly to log on to the members only site and was not able to do so. Yesterday I tried again and was able to do so. In retrospect, maybe the website or my isp was acting up at the time, but, in view of the history of events, all I knew was that I couldn't get into the members only section. That's the problem with threats. The people to whom they're made tend to believe them.

In any event, that resovles one problem, but it leaves my original concern. The treasurer's report should be posted on the open forum. I worked in government for over 30 years, and there are certain principles that contribute to good government. One principle is that you always make everything as easy and foolproof as you possibly can, because, if you make anything too complicated, people won't be able to navigate their way through it. In this thread, you've heard officers say that our members are consistently having difficulty accessing the members only area. That's a problem. We have three choices about how to deal with it. We can ignore the problem, or we can fix it, or we can blame the dumb members for not being able to cope with it. The fact remains that numerous members are repeatedly inconvenienced in accessing the information, and at least one officer is repeatedly inconvenienced by having to deal with the problem. In the meantime, information that is of vital interest to the members, such as the treasurer's report, should not be posted on the members only site.

Another principle of good government is that you should always maintain a free flow of information to the citizens. Information dispels rumors and suspicions and misconceptions of all kinds. By providing information fully and openly, citizens don't have to take anyone's word for anything. They can see and add up the numbers for themselves.

Another problem with posting important information on the members only site is that, by doing so, the officers tacitly imply that there's something confidential about the treasurer's report. John's original question was: "Since the telltale is published in a 'closed' area on the site, where is the appropriate place to raise specific questions?." John justifiably thought the treasurer's report was confidential, and, if so, he didn't want to discuss it publicly. In a subsequent post, John said exactly what I'm saying:
"Bringing the numbers to this [open, public] forum kind of defeats the purpose of publishing them in the [private] member's only area."

In a previous post I asked: "What is the purpose of publishing [the treasurer's report] in the members only area? I haven't heard a good answer to that question yet. The only effort made to answer the question was that it might "train" our members how to enter the members only area, but even that person didn't think that was a very good reason.

I'll ask again, why not publish it in the public forum, where any member can readily access it, feel free to discuss it openly, and not think he's relegated to asking questions about it in a private email to an officer?

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2007 : 09:50:14

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 From now on, my comments will be about weather and religion. Politics sucks.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Ummm..... Maybe they'd better be just the former. Nonetheless, I'll risk it all and say "Merry Christmas!" And John, I think you should start a new topic and ask your question. (Curmudgeon ducks and runs...)

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 12/15/2007 : 10:39:05

Posting information in the Members area is not restrictive. Members have passwords. It is not that hard. I too, have worked in government for 30 years and we make all information available because the government represents all citizens. This association does not.

It makes perfect sense to me to have some resources and information that are available to members only. My yacht club posts its minutes and financials - in the members area. Want access to those resources? Join the club and pay the dues!

Logging on is something we all do for all sorts of things. I do wish we could change our association passwords but life aint perfect. I keep my password in a drawer by the computer where I can get to it easily.

I sense in reading these posts, and in other posts on another forum and on a blog that there are old wounds that are continuing to fester. As a newer member I say it is time to let go of the past. I for one, am tiring of old business being rehashed like some sort of conspiracy. It's a sailboat association being run by volunteers for crying out loud.

It's almost 2008. Let's move on.

Edited by - on

Justin
Admiral

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502 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2007 : 11:18:53

Val and anyone else that needs help with the log in to the members only section, contact me and I'll provide the information. Email me at justin_4192 at hotmail.com.

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2007 : 17:13:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">If you cannot remember your password then perhaps you shouldn't be using the Internet. Geesh.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I suppose I shouldn't be here, because I don't know the password. I was given one when I paid my dues, but I was just so darned thrilled that you guys would let me join that I promptly lost it. I have decided to go on blind faith and trust that all is well with the checks and balances and cheques. (cheque is a Canadian word for the piece of paper used for exchanging money, referred to as a 'check' in the US and in my spell checker)
Where I live, (Alberta Canada) it is not a requirement of a not for profit organization to publcicly disclose its financials, however it is a requirement that the financials be available to all members, and that the financials be filed with the appropriate government agency, from whom the financials can be accessed by any tax payer who has legitimate reason to see them.

That said, I am happy with the state of the organization, even though I have not been in the members only area, and have not seen the financials. I trust the integrity of most, if not all the people, that I have interacted with so far on this site. I once again, want to thank the people who take the running of this organization seriously, and who also post serious responses as well as recognize a good opportunity for humour.

I can smell a rat from 5,000 miles or 6,000 KM's away, and I have not smelt one yet. Post the financials wherever they're supposed to be posted according to the law of the local constabulary. Pressed for an opinion, I'd say that you should be a dues paying member with a good memory, in order to have a look at them.

as previously noted, I'm not cool, I'm wearing snow goggles.

Edited by - on

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