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Boycott China Goods!

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piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/29/2007 : 21:15:45

Normally I don't like to mix politics and sailing but this story got to me. Don't know if you are aware that the other day China refused our aircraft carrier, Kitty Hawk, to dock and meet with families who flew over from the US to Hong Kong for Thanksgiving. This was a scheduled stop but the Chinese refused at the last minute. If that is not enough, China also refused to allow two minesweepers refuge into Hong Kong to escape an approaching storm. This is a breach of maritime traditions. This is outrageous. The Chinese government refused to offer any reasons.
Well that just set me off. I decided to no longer make ANY purchase of any goods from China. I feel we need to let China know their behavior is not acceptable. I feel this is an affront to the safety of the men and the women on the minesweepers and the United States. This is WRONG!
I hope you feel the same and will also join me. Please share this story with others and get them to also participate in this boycott, until at least they have apologized.
Steve A

Previous Owner
PiSeas II
2003 C250 WK #692
Newport Beach, CA

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2007 : 23:04:18

As a North American I sometimes feel that everything is made in China. I wonder if it is even possible to boycott Chineese made products. Did you know that nearly 50% of all goods manufactured in China is owned by foreign companies including the USA benefiting from low Chineese wages? In the high tech sector (electronics and computers) it goes up to 90%. Environmental laws are too strict here in North America, so these goods are manufactured in China which is less prohibitive (not saying this is good) contributing to the "not in my backyard" mentality. We are so accustomed to buying Chineese hard goods that if we were to suddenly remove all products made in China from our shelves our countries would fall into a deep recesion. China is so engrained into our economy that pulling Chineese goods would create a situation where low to medium income families wouldn't have enough spendable income to spend on North American made goods and services. Economics is a complex organism and difficult to grasp from a global perspective.

I am not very pro-Chineese myself and try my best to buy North American. I just think this economic perspective is an interesting one. I understand your outrage on what happened with the Kitty Hawk and those two minesweepers. I'm sure there must be a reason why this happened that we are unaware of. I'm quite sure that Canada or the United States would also refuse last minute dockage to a fully armed nuclear Chineese Aircraft carrier in its territory wanting to meet with their families for Chineese new years or something important to them.

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 11/30/2007 00:32:57

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2007 : 01:21:26

The four day Thanksgiving celebration wasn't last minute, it had been planned well in advance. The Chinese reasoning for denying the visit had everything to do with politics and absolutely nothing to do with maritime laws or customs. They were sending a message to the US that they were unhappy about us (the US) agreeing to [url="http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSN29439533"]upgrade Taiwan's Patriot missile defenses[/url] (to the tune of nearly $1 billion US) which would shift the balance of power away from the Chinese in the Formosa Straits. They're also pissed at us for pinning a medal on the Dalai Lama whom they view as a terrorist. These are the same reasons they denied the minesweepers entry & refueling rights, to send a message to us. Having been on the receiving end of such caprice when I was in the USN, I can feel for the guys on the carrier, especially those who had flown their families over for the holiday. That said, I don't see where they (the guys on the carrier) were put to much hardship in real terms. The minesweepers are another story. You don't deny ships in trouble a port in a storm.

All that said, I agree with Steve (B), it would be extremely difficult to boycott Chinese products here in the US simply because they're so pervasive. I don't disagree with your attempt and I wish you good luck in your effort, I'll be interested to see how easy/hard it is for you to actually do though.

I guess I should qualify my position, I'm married to a Chinese, admittedly from Malaysia, but ethnically Chinese nonetheless.

Edited by - delliottg on 11/30/2007 01:29:31

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2007 : 06:55:14

Without trying to sound sarcastic - Good Luck I give you 4 mos before you knowingly buy something from China, 2 weeks before you unknowingly by something with a part or component made in China.

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2007 : 07:40:15

Steve, etal. Do we just turn a blind eye and allow the Chinese govt to treat our fellow sailors like this? Our own administration is doing nothing. Why, because of politics, which I will not get into. This story barely got noticed in the news. That BS!
Its time you and I got involved. This should, as sailors, have some effect on you. This story should strike a nerve in all of us.
I am not asking low income families to participate, I am asking boat owners to unite.
Even if we boycott for a week, it sends a message. No recession would occur but yes we would pay higher prices for American Made. It might take me longer to find non-Chinese products but its a cause well worth. I am sorry many of you may agree in theory but will not make the sacrifice.
I may alienate myself by saying this, but I thought the members of this
forum were a group of caring, united, and had a sense of commitment and were passionate about the boating world. This story outraged me and it should you too!
Steve A

Edited by - on

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1761 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2007 : 08:34:43

A very complex situation. I am both a pretty liberal guy and a US electronics mfg struggling to stay "viable" against my US competitors with facilities in China. Been there allot and know their yields are much lower than US/Canadian produced goods -- but -- labor is dirt cheap and the government has very lucrative incentives (offline I can provide some scary details). Think it through -- there is something screwy when it costs more for a Cat25 main sail than either a technology and component rich LCD or Plasma TV! That being said, I do not think it is possible to boycott Chinese made goods as they are too prevalent in everything. BUT . . . we all should avoid them when we can and we all should keep our elected officials under pressure as, if we don't, one day it won't be denying an aircraft carrier fur-low that will be the issue -- it will be China having control of our economies AND our ability to build arms for our nations!

Edited by - on

Renzo
Admiral

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USA
621 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2007 : 08:50:15

Steve A, Many of us are outraged by this and other affronts to our nation and culture, from over seas and at home. It is just that the boycott is not as effective a tool as it once was, especially on the international level. It is unfortunate, but it is just more evidence of the marginalization and manipulation of the opinions of the average person by international political and economic powers. I wonder what the reaction of the international community would have been if the Chinese had affronted a middle eastern ship at Ramadan.
I share your outrage and frustration but perhaps a letter writing campaign to congressmen and senators, or to local newspapers would be more effective. The average person has to find new and effective ways to make themselves heard on issues like these (preferably without becoming part of the problem by rioting in the streets like so many others do) Keep pushing!

Edited by - on

dave holtgrave
Captain

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USA
427 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2007 : 08:52:30

hey guys
great discussion.

i'm not any kind of economics major and don't want to be but, let's look at ourselves.i serve on a workforce investment board in two counties in illinois.
we try to match education and business.
our goal is to educate and have future generations stay in our locale.

there are several points i'll make that baffle my mine.
i feel the majority of americans are losing grip on our present and future.

points as follow:
1.why are we teaching kids the same curriculum as was in the 50's?
i agree with the basics but, come on, we are not adjusting our schools to keep kids interested. we continuously are fighting schools to change and they refused.
THE EASY WAY OUT.
maybe we should grade our teachers on their performance??
maybe they should be paid by their performance.
2.as americans we need to get out of our heads every child need a college degree. who will do the welding,warehouse material moving,
construction. will we hire immigrants and let them take our tax money and wages back to their countries and have their families live the life of luxury. what about our future? where will all the college grads work?? remember we are only starting our electronic world.
3. if your wife shops at Chico's like mine, why should we pay $90 for a blouse made offshore in a sweat shop that pays their employees maybe a dollar a day? why? greed by our own. does ralph lauran really need to make that much money??
ll bean?? j crew??. GREED.
3.i don't like the lead paints on toys and tainted meats either BUT, what are we doing to change it?? our government has positioned us to be the most powerful country when all the overseas oil is gone. when might that be?? if we are to step forward and be the world leader maybe we should act like it and use our own intellegence.why not use some of our own oil from the 75 to 100 year reserves and invent an alternative fuel.(not corn}
how much power would the oil counties have if we stopped buying, NONE!!!. why is it i go to buy an SUV from GMC and have to deal with 13 -16 miles to the gallon?? why,IT'S THE EASY WAY OUT. by the way the corvette is almost double the milage and more horsepower.
4.our lenders didn't use basic accounting principles and look were our housing market is.but yet, if i am an illegal immigrant i can get a credit card!!!!!
5.ever called to change a flight?
i don't hear very well but, i can't understand them.
6. call socal security administration and listen to the recording.
the first announcement is in spanish.

i served my country in viet nam and don't like were we are headed.

if we want to lead the world, we best change quickly, we are losing the race.

i just get so frustrated that our priorities are not in alignment.

i know, go vote.
i do.
but, they talk the talk, they just don't walk it.who will stand up and redirect our country??

dave holtgrave
5722 sk/tr
peoples republic of illinois
former governor finally went to jail.
need one more cell for the present one.

do they know what to do if you even know

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2007 : 09:31:23

We had better accept that as long as the US tries to "manage" every situation in the world, like PRC vs. ROC, somebody's nose is going to get bent, and somebody is going to "send us a message" in a way that gets our attention. (Mission accomplished.) How would we feel if China maintained naval fleets along both of our coasts, flew telecommunications reconn missions along our coasts every day, and armed Cuba with missiles and advanced aircraft to give them "parity"? (Hmmm... How quickly we forget.) If, then, one of their aircraft carriers wanted to celebrate a Chinese holiday in San Francisco, might we expect GWB to "send them a message"

BTW, forget clothing and electronics--you won't even be able to buy a sheet of plywood.

I'm gone.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 11/30/2007 10:28:07

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2007 : 14:15:30

Am I the only one who is continually amazed by IKEA's ability to source product from all nations and have viable prices? I have the same clothes hooks made to the same pattern from both sweden and Brazil in my house, the only difference is that the brazilian ones are chamfered more deeply. They both cost the same amount, both were made with pine, both look identical.

If IKEA can shop the world to come up with product, why can't other producers?

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2007 : 15:32:47

Their refusal was not because we have ships in their area but because they were pissed at us for pinning a medal on the Dali Lama.(To take a direct quote from David)
Write a letter to my congressman, are you kidding! Letters fall on deaf ears. Other countries don't write letters, they protest as individuals. We have become too lazy a society and just give in. Most fall back into the complacency of complaining about this or that.
Most crap is from China and its killing American business and our worker and maybe Canadians too. So as what point do we say enough is enough. This incident did it for me. What will it take to move YOU? Ask yourself that question.
I am one person, I know, but it has to start somewhere. I am doing what I can to spread the word. I talk to people and send out emails, one by one.
You can be sure I will be looking at manufacturing labels from here on out.

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2007 : 17:37:25

Canada also received the Dali Lama recently. Chinese embassy officials immediately threatened Canada trying to force us out of the meeting. Our Prime Minister (president for you Americans) disregarded their threats and met with the Dali Lama anyways. China is growing stronger all the time, however our concept of freedom eludes them. They do not understand that we take great offense at other countries telling us what to do and that we will not be controlled in such a fashion. We are still waiting for our reprisal.

On the other hand other countries do not appreciate, as Dave put it well, how we "manage" every situation in the world. This leading to anti-Americanism and now anti-Canadianism since we are holding hands with you guys on multiple fronts.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3430 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2007 : 17:43:11

I don't know if any of you know this but there is a bit more to this story....
The aircraft carrier then docked in Japan where it was relatively quiet, no fanfare with their arrival. At a another dock aways from the US carrier, a chinese destroyer also docked. It is the first visit of a chinese military ship to Japan and there was quite a bit of fanfare by the Japanese at the dock to mark this first visit. This comes at a time when the chinese are rebuilding their naval fleet pumping significantly more dollars into their military budget. While this was an important milestone in japanese-chinese relations, the japanese govt still has concerns over some long term disputes and a few other issues. The US military has concerns especially over the minesweeper incident because at times when vessels need assistance, it is understood that assistance is generally rendered. The chinese govt indicates that the 2 recent incidents the minesweepers and the aircraft carrier were misunderstandings but it is acknowledged they have concerns over the praise the US has given recently to the Delai Lama (spelling correct ?) and his support of Tibet. Also the concerns over weapons delivery to Taiwan which always seems to raise issues now and then. Still, the US finds the situation and the explanation (misunderstanding)...a bit perplexing.

Edited by - OLarryR on 11/30/2007 17:46:01

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2007 : 18:31:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> They do not understand that we take great offense at other countries telling us what to do and that we will not be controlled in such a fashion. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This could have been said by President Hu Jintao or Prime Minister Harper or President Bush with equal indignation.

Good luck turning the tide. The Chinese population was estimated in July to be: 1,321,851,888 That's 1.3 Billion people. Regrettably, none of them have the privilege of a discussion such as this one.

Edited by - on

dave holtgrave
Captain

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USA
427 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2007 : 21:01:54

piseas--direct hit with your comments

john russell, china is a country run by their government.

how much freedom do we really have to change something??
even if the majority wants change, someone will come out of the woodwork to stop it.

ex: we can't build here because the migratory birds may stop here in the fall. a border wall will not allow animals to roam.
if the u.s. captures a prisoner of war. where else would their ACLU stand up and defend the prisoner.
i wish someone would have told the japanese this while me father was held captive and being punished.
oh!by the way did i tell you how he used to sit up in the middle of the night crying and screaming when he was 55 years old.

enough of the garbage about politics.
let's talk sailing, oh it's suppose to sleet and rain here tonit.

i think i'll get on a southwest and head to tampa and orlando for a little business and pleasure this weekend.

how we doing on the west coast??
probably out sailing and watching the whales.

dave holtgrave
5722 sk/tr
hard and dry near carlyle lake in southern illinois

Edited by - on

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 12/02/2007 : 10:22:37

I just would like to know - what ever happened to the crews on the 2 mine sweepers?

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3430 Posts

Response Posted - 12/02/2007 : 11:26:50

The minesweepers rode the storm out and were refueled at sea by an American tanker. The Kitty Hawk docked in Japan.

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 12/02/2007 : 16:07:09

Here's my own little protest against the Chinese

Three months ago I started self directing my own 401k plan. Even though the Chinese sector funds are red hot, I didn't buy any of them. I hate the Chinese, or Communists in general, or anyone who believes in socialism.
My hottest mutual funds are Fidelity southeast asia (mostly korean and Tiwanese), and an exchange traded fund in the Brazilian market.

I refuse to invest in China, and have stopped shopping at Wal Mart too. Did you know that Hillary Clinton used to be on the board of Wallyworld? Wal mart, your source for cheap chinese crap.

Edited by - on

Jmurfy
Navigator

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USA
176 Posts

Response Posted - 12/02/2007 : 22:30:18

We created our own competition by outsourcing so much oversea's along with our intellectual capital. Pretty soon we'll all be serving each other hamburgers unless we get serious about moving our industries back to this country. The Chinese now have over a trillion of our dollars from "trade" and financing our war in Iraq. We've dug ourserlves one hell of a whole.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3430 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2007 : 05:51:26

Actually, I think we have done very well thru the last decade righting our industrial progress (LEAN/Six Sigma, etc). Back about 10 years or so ago, Japan was kicking our butt. We changed things around and became more efficient. But during the past few years with the war and perhaps other things, we have eroded ourselves economically. That combines with China progressing slowly and methodically is cranking up economically. I see this as a normal and inevitable progression they are undergoing. There are, of course, areas of disagreement economically and militarily.

On a personal note, the wake-up call for me was when I was researching solar panels for my boat two years ago. I found that the majority of the solar panels are made outside our country - Germany, Japan, South America (Kyocera), etc. I would have thought that with years ago (USA) incentives in solar energy that we would have had an edge on this technology but apparently like a lot of other goods, we have to rely on others except for one or two major solar panel producers. The wake-up call for me was that when I had my favored panel selections worked out, I found (at least 2 years ago) there was a shortage of solar panels of the type I wanted. Many solar panel distributors even indicated on their website that there was a shortage of panels at that time. One of the explanations given was that Europe was currently offering incentives for installations in their countries and China apparently had just a small fraction of their elite installing solar panels and because of their huge population that had a big impact as well. The dollar was also weak and the cost to ship was a disincentive. In any case, I had to settle for my second choice in a solar panel. My first choice was a solar panel made by Solara (the one that originates from Germany) and my second was Kyocera from South America. The Kyocera is working out fine.

But realize that all you need is 1 percent of the chinese population to need something and then their is a drain on worldwide supplies of certain commodities.

Edited by - OLarryR on 12/03/2007 05:56:16

Gambit
Navigator

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USA
160 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2007 : 16:14:53

A boycott might be tough for them to notice. But I do get a kick out of the fact that the world's leaders in counterfeiting are upset that people are counterfeiting Olympic logos.

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piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2007 : 17:12:09

Frank, I applaud you! That is something I had not thought about. I do appreciate everyone's input. I just wanted to bring something up related to sailing that disturbed me. Political as it was, I hope this at least gets you all thinking. And now, its time, like Dave said, to get back sailing. Weather here in SoCal is beautiful.
Steve A

Edited by - piseas on 12/03/2007 17:13:03

David Zumwalt
Deckhand

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USA
12 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2007 : 20:58:04

I find this thread to be of interest. An educator in Colorado created this very interesting link http://www.glumbert.com/media/shift which gave me some insight into China. I shared it with my staff before the beginning of this school year.

I believe as the middle class grows in China along with their desire to have an open society, including freedom of speech and religion, along with unrestricted internet access, their leadership will be forced to recognize the middle class desires or face significant internal conflict.

I am not sure any healthy society can be highly technical, highly creative and at the same time controlled.

Finally, driving home tonight I heard on NPR that labor costs in Vietnam are so low that they are now undercutting Chinese contracts and taking business away from them.

BTW, what is a 1950's education? If my school wasn't any better than the one I attended I would get suicidal.

Dave

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2007 : 22:06:47

David,
You raise an interesting point. I think that China is very near to a revolution. I've read that when a country's literacy rate approaches 50%, democracy breaks out whether the rulers want it or not. The old school Chinese leaders desperately want to control their people, but they don't understand the technology, they fear the freedom that the internet provides, and the folks who do understand it will always find a way around any lockdowns that get put in place. Eventually democracy will become the norm in China and all of a sudden they will have the world's largest middle class (instead of India). India has more middle class folks than we (the US) have folks, period. The next decade or so will be very interesting. That Vietnam is undercutting China is interesting because when the Chinese no longer want to do the menial jobs that Americans currently don't, who are they going to outsource to? Maybe Brazil, or even Russia.

Edited by - on

Happy D
Admiral

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921 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2007 : 20:34:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Port mill closing

By Andrew Hellpap
Daily Tribune Staff

PORT EDWARDS -- Paper producer Domtar announced Thursday it will close its Port Edwards facility.

The shutdown, which is expected in the second quarter of 2008, will mean a loss of about 500 of the 1,000 jobs at the Port Edwards and Nekoosa mills, a company official said.

"This is mainly due to decline in the markets for the products they produce," said Craig Timm, manager of communication and government relations for Montreal, Quebec-based Domtar.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This is the real cost of buying Chinese made products. This is happening all over the USA and Canada. I spent 5 months last year at this plant rebuilding a machine for them. I got to know these people personally. They are my friends. They are all hard working people who really cared about the plant and the company. Now what do they do? Build houses? Buy a boat? Take the kids Christmas presents back so they can buy food, that's what they're going to do. They shutdown Friday.
I am extremely distressed about the future of North America.
It isn't because we have a bad education system, it's all labor costs. How many Americans do you know that will work for a hand full of rice per day? Every time we purchase something that says Made in China, we are asking an American to work for a handful of rice. And all the money goes to the Chinese military.
[url="http://www.wisconsinrapidstribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071214/WRT0101/712140543&theme=WRTMILL"]Link to the article[/url]

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