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Atomic 4 vs. Universal diesel? C-30 question.

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AADIVER
Admiral

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USA
966 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/13/2007 : 00:57:23

I've just come across an '81 original owner C-30 for sale. I know the owner so I know the boat's been given TLC. But it has the original Atomic 4 gas engine. IF I move up to a 30 (big if), I'd much prefer a Universal diesel. But I understand the Atomic kicks out more hp than a diesel of that vintage. What are the pros and cons of gas vs. diesel? Thanks.

Frank Farmer
Long Beach, CA
aa.diver@verizon.net
http://mysite.verizon.net/aa.diver

PRETTY PENNY
'01 C-250 WK, Hull #558

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5891 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2007 : 08:03:36

Like most people, I used to be very cool to the idea of a gas engine on a boat until I had actual experience with one. The Atomic 4 is generally a very safe and reliable engine, and, although it is out of production, people who own them tell me that new parts are available to repair everything on the engine except the block. If the block is ruined, the engine is dead, because used ones a not available. I helped replace the impeller on an Atomic 4, and on that particular boat, you could only reach it through a small access port. You couldn't see the water pump, so you had to do the repair entirely by feel. The repair was so simple that it was no problem at all.

I have helped the owner take the boat back and forth between my marina and Annapolis more times than I can count, and in all conditions, and it performed very well. We only had a minor problem once. In very rough conditons, we were motorsailing hard to windward, and when the boat heeled excessively, the fuel apparently disrupted the carbureter float, and the engine sputtered. As soon as we let the boat stand more upright, it ran fine.

The only real precautions you need to take with the engine is to sniff the engine compartment for fumes before you start it, turn on the blower for a short time, and be careful that you don't spill any fuel inside the bilges when filling the tank. Most people who have had hands-on experience with them have a high regard for them. That having been said, a boat with an Atomic 4 will not be as valuable or as easily marketable as a boat with a diesel engine, and you need to take that into consideration in deciding on a purchase price. Most people prefer a diesel, even though the Atomic 4 might provide equally reliable service.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2007 : 08:47:21

What Steve said... Also, the diesels of that era (and up until recently) were substantially noisier, vibrated more, and produced more smoke and fumes. Long runs in very light, following air can be very annoying.

One more issue with diesels is the biological activity in the fuel tank. Unless the fuel is religiously treated, algae tends to grow on the tank walls, then dies, and then becomes sludge in the bottom of the tank. That might not be a problem until you get into some heavy seas that pitch the boat and shake up the tank... then you have a fuel filter full of black crud and an engine that won't run until you change the filter, which will again fill with black crud and stop the engine.

It has been written that diesels are meant to be run long and hard, and don't last when run for short, easy periods. Gas engines are somewhat the reverse. Which one, if an '81 vintage, will require re-powering sooner is anyone's guess.

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2007 : 09:25:07

Atomic 4s are decent motors, they are more quiet than a similar diesel, they have 30 HP (compared to 12 for the Universal) and parts are readily available - including complete long blocks here on the west coast for $4000. They are known for a weak cooling system so keep the pump in top condition. After market fresh water cooling systems are available. Drop in diesel conversions are available.

Cons of gas

more explosive fuel
motor needs an electrical system to run
less MPG
less resale value of the boat

Pros of gas

much cheaper to buy, and repair if needed
quieter, smoother, less fumes

Pros of diesel

generally more reliable engine, longer service life
more MPG
safer fuel

Cons of diesel

fantastically expensive to buy, replace, service
noisy, lots of vibration (until you get to 4 cylinder models)
fumes can make some seasick

I would not avoid an Atomic 4 and I would probably just get the new $4K long block as part of the purchase price. Literally 10s of thousands of A4s are out there.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5891 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2007 : 09:47:02

I should add one other observation. As any engine ages, it loses power. The owner tells me that his 1960 vintage Atomic 4 has never been overhauled, and he had the compression tested a few years ago, and he knows it's lower than it should be, even though it still runs smoothly, and without smoking. We've found that, if there is a significant chop, it can no longer drive the boat efficiently to windward, on engine alone, in more than about 15-16 knots of wind. The waves striking the bow head-on bring the boat virtually to a stop, and it doesn't have enough power to drive through them anymore. Overall, the boat can still make slow progress to windward, but it's so slow that you end up taking much longer to get to the destination, and you use much more fuel than you planned to use, so, you are likely to run out of fuel before you get there. But, in those conditions, we raise the mainsail, and the sail produces enough additional power to keep it driving through the waves, and to help the engine get the boat to the destination.

This is a long way of saying that, when the engine is older, and if it has a lot of hours on it, you should at least get a compression check on the engine, to get an idea of it's overall good health.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5891 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2007 : 10:10:57

Jim, I'd appreciate it if you can furnish me contact information for the company that sells Atomic 4 short or long blocks. I know some classic boat sailors on the Chesapeake who would love to have that information.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 12/13/2007 11:02:54

dave holtgrave
Captain

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USA
427 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2007 : 12:52:40

farmhand
you buy that c-30 and you willo have to committ to give us midwesterners a sail when we work in your area.

i think the boat is waiting for you to buy it.
grewat info on these posts

good luck on your new venture.
keep us posted

dave holtgrave
5722 sk/tr
hard and dry near carlyle lake in southern illinois

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2007 : 15:31:51

Info on the Atomic 4 Long Block plus parts and service

http://www.moyermarine.com/

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John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2007 : 15:45:23

Frank, I'm thinkin' that you can sell the 250, buy that C30 and have money for frosty, adult beverages for the entire association.

Seriously, the price difference might even allow for a "sorta rebuild" of the Atomic that would give you some level of security and peace of mind.

Kknowing the current owner would certainly increase my comfort level with the boat but, I'd still have it surveyed.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2007 : 16:21:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 ...I'd still have it surveyed.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">My goodness, yes!

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AADIVER
Admiral

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USA
966 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2007 : 16:36:15

I'm cooling rather quickly on moving up to a 30 with either a gas or diesel engine. Too many systems and "stuff" for a simple non-mechanically or electrically adept dude like meself. To just gain standing headroom ain't worth the trade off. However...I will go out with my friend with the '81 next week and make a final decision. Too bad the 30's don't have a forum like this.

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2007 : 16:44:59

I spent lots of time on boats.com and yachtworld.com shopping for a new boat. Yes, there is a big difference in sale price for an older Atomic 4 vs. diesel equipped boat. Since I'm into buying a new/used boat every few years as I move up to a retirement boat, ease of resale is a big factor for me.
My new Ericson has a Universal M-25 with 21 hp. The engine mount is a three point suspension, one in front and two in the rear. This makes it more prone to vibration vs a 4 point mount. My access in the ericson is great compared to the Catalina 30. Yes I did look at the 30. One thing I didn't like about the C-30 is how forward the jibsheet winches were from the wheel. On my ericson they are right next to the wheel, so you can use them when you are at the wheel, a big plus.

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Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2007 : 18:31:45

Frank, how the heck'd they get a three point mount for an M25. That sounds very suspicious. Help me out here, mine and everyone else I know who has one has all four corners on engine mounts.

For the original poster: new systems on these boats are NOT hard to learn. Just ask Frank

An electrical panel is just a tad bigger than the one you have now, same principles. The water is a simple pump with a tank and a through hull drain. Not too hard...

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2007 : 19:34:32

A plus on a diesel is 'biofuel'!

A local friend of mine runs his VW Diesel on improved grease collected from the local Dunkin Doesn't, he gets better mpg (or is it mplb?) than from regular diesel and at a fraction of the cost!

Would be to learn if anyone with a diesel onboard is using biofuels.

[url="http://www.rienvirothon.org/Alternative_energy/bio_diesel_ethanol.pdf"]click for article on bio-diesel ethanol[/url]

Paul

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2007 : 19:59:40

I could become the owner of a 1964 Cal 30 with an Atomic 4 in a couple of years.

After selling and buying I'd be basically trading my C25 in tip top condition for a much older project boat. The guy is talking $15K but after he does a bottom job and new engine. I don't think those projects will ever be done (its a run down dock queen liveaboard now). But I like her lines.

New engine, new sails, new bottom, new running rigging, new electronics all are needed - however standing rigging is good, hull is good, has a new 30 gallon fuel tank (I helped install it).

Its right next to a C30 and is significantly smaller.

Rates 198 I believe.

But I'm thinking save all my vacation time for 2 years, then take 6 weeks and sail to the Sea of Cortez and back (in winter). Plus continue my sailing every day after work and doing offshore races.

Really would like something that rates closer to 150. Maybe a J27 would be nice.

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stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 12/13/2007 : 20:21:18

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">A local friend of mine runs his VW Diesel on improved grease collected from the local Dunkin <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I suppose if you used donut grease bio fuel to run your inboard diesel - you might not mind the smell. MMMMMM donuts.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5891 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2007 : 21:15:14

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimB517
 Really would like something that rates closer to 150. Maybe a J27 would be nice.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> An S2 7.9 or 9.1 might be to your liking. The 9.1 rates 135. I don't know the 7.9's rating, but it's pretty fast.

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2007 : 21:26:09

My "very good friend's" son converted his old Mercedes diesel to run on vegetable oil... He gets most of his fuel from McDonalds and other restaurants, and heats and filters it in her garage. His tailpipe definitely smells like french-fries cooking--beats following a regular Mercedes fossil-smoker down the road!

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2007 : 21:34:40

I don't know whether Jim would like an S2 for cruising... The one I was on felt like a true plastic clorox bottle. I suspected serious seas would toss it around like a cork. And the hull windage looked huge. I dunno... maybe they're good lake racers, but I somehow got down on S2s.

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2007 : 08:09:45

Not my impression of S2s at all, the early ones were frighteningly ugly but the "Meter" series are really nice. They are Balsa cored hulls which should make them very tough. I would love a 9.1A

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5891 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2007 : 08:47:32

To a certain extent, when you choose a boat, you have to decide between a racer and a cruiser. The design characteristics that make it good for racing tend to make it less satisfactory for cruising and passagemaking, and vice versa, although some of the newest custom boats are pretty good for both purposes. The S2s are nicely built, good all-around performing boats within the size and rating range that Jim is considering. The 9.1 in particular is rated nearly as fast as the J27, and is a pretty hot boat.

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crcalhoon
Captain

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USA
303 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2007 : 10:39:04

I have a friend with a J27. It is a fun boat to sail, but very low freeboard and pretty wide beam makes it easy to bury the rail. lt's a lot of fun on the lake, but even there any wave action will make you wish that you were on C25. I don't think that I would like it very much in any kind of blue water.

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2007 : 11:49:02

Here is a great photo I took of a J27 in one of our local offshore races. It rates 120 and races with the big boats 35 feet to 40 feet.

If you could cruise this thing 800 miles down Baja and back I'd be really interested. I don't want an outboard for that voyage, though.

Edited by - on

djn
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1561 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2007 : 13:25:58

Hi Frank, I have the A4 in my 36' Hinckly and it does great. I don't much like having gas on a wood boat and would like to swap the A4 with a Yanmar 30. It is a bolt in replacement and if you do it yourself (not that hard) you can do it for around 5K. As for the A4, it is a great engine and pushes my boat to better than boat speed with power to spare. I have been looking on eBay to see what I might be able to get for my A4 to offset the cost of the Yanmar but haven't seen anything yet. Good luck with the C30....I sailed one for a week this past summer and loved it. Compared to the C25, it is like a mansion below. Cheers.

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mhartong
Navigator

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USA
152 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2007 : 15:42:09

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimB517
 
Cons of diesel

fantastically expensive to buy, replace, service
noisy, lots of vibration (until you get to 4 cylinder models)
fumes can make some seasick.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I will have to disagree slightly with some of the cons-

I have a Yanmar 1GM!0 with the SD20 sail drive. While I agree that the initial purchase cost/replacement cost is much higher than an outboard- or a rebuilt Atomic 4 for that matter), the service costs are not that bad. Part of it may be that on the 250 one has wonderful, easy access to the engine. With the engine box off, there is complete unrestricted access to three sides, and the fourth side against the head wall has excellent access. Parts are readily available, and not that expensive (well they are more expensive than outboard parts, but its all relative) However, if you don't have easy access to the engine, repairs are a PIYA, and can be very expensive due to the fact one is spending a fair amount of time just accessing the repair point.

As far as vibration, provided that its properly mounted, and aligned there is really is no excessive vibration. The little 1GM10 is a 1 cylinder doesn't have any noticeable vibration,. Noise is also minimal (the engine box cover is extensively insulated)

With respect to diesel odor, It has been my experience that below decks that cleanliness of the engine room (space) and tight fittings eliminates the diesel smell that tends to make people ill. Nor have I had any problem with exhaust smell in the cockpit due to the diesel exhaust.

I think that you should worry less about the type of engine, but its current health, its maintenance record, its accesability for repair, and how it supports you sailing needs.

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