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Size of Whisker Pole

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Initially Posted - 10/15/2007 : 17:11:45

Can someone please tell me how to determine the maximum length permitted for a telescoping whisker pole, used to pole out a genoa? (Not necessarily for a C25. I need the formula for determining the maximum length for any given boat.) I don't have a rule book with me, and tried, unsuccessfully, to find the answer online.

Also, if I have a pole that extends too far, am I allowed to put black tape on it, or mark it to establish the maximum allowable length?

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 10/15/2007 : 18:26:18

Steve, I believe that it depends upon the Class Rules or local PHRF committees. I've never heard of a formula but hope that someone can come up with one.
Under most class rules, or PHRF, you are allowed to black tape the pole at the correct length.

Edited by - on

saribella
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Response Posted - 10/15/2007 : 18:33:37

For LMPHRF it is: A pole may be used to push out the clew of a headsail.
The pole must be no longer than the SPL measurement shown on handicap certificate (or no longer than the
J measurement if SPL is not shown). A whisker pole may be used for this purpose if it is banded to meet
the above length restriction.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 10/15/2007 : 22:22:04

Matthew - are you sure that you are talking about a whisker pole? A spinnaker pole is limited to the J measurement, but under our class rules a whisker pole can be 16' and change.
Using a 10' pole with a 155% genoa would be almost useless.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 10/16/2007 : 08:47:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">...Using a 10' pole with a 155% genoa would be almost useless<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Derek, that's what promted me to ask the question. I have been crewing on a Pearson 32 lately, and they often fly twin headsails, with one poled out, using a spinnaker pole that is the length of their J measurement. The pole isn't long enough, and it doesn't work very well. Last weekend, we raced about 40 miles, and much of it was downwind, and a longer pole would have helped a lot.

I have a big whisker pole on my boat that telescopes from 13' to 24', and want to use it on my boat in a similar manner, and would loan it to the Pearson owner, if he's allowed to use it. I doubt that there are class rules for my boat, and don't know whether there are any for the Pearson 32.

This winter I plan to apply for a rating certificate for my boat, and the application form asks for the length of any poles you carry. I'll tell them about my whisker pole, and presumably they'll take it into consideration in establishing a handicap rating for my boat. In any event, if I tell them that I plan to use a 13-24 whisker pole, and they establish my rating based on that information, that should eliminate any question as to whether I'm allowed to use it on my boat.

But, that still leaves the question of whether my friend can use it on his boat without applying for a modification in his rating certificate? If there's no rule against it, then you would think it would be allowed, but, just thinking it through, probably the safest thing would be for him to apply for a modification in his rating certificate. Applying for a rating modification isn't that big of a deal, and it might not change his rating at all. I don't know, but they might establish the ratings based on the assumption that you'll use the longest pole that will work with your biggest headsail. The possibility that that is true is what causes me to think that the Pearson owner might be allowed to use it without applying for a rating modification. If he told them that his biggest headsail is a 155, then maybe he's automatically allowed to use the largest pole that can be used with a 155% genoa.

Thanks to all for the discussion. I'm not sure I have the exact answer, but I think that my problem, at least, will be solved in any event by applying for a new certificate.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 10/16/2007 08:52:21

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 10/16/2007 : 10:46:04

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 Matthew - are you sure that you are talking about a whisker pole? A spinnaker pole is limited to the J measurement, but under our class rules a whisker pole can be 16' and change.
Using a 10' pole with a 155% genoa would be almost useless.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">So maybe you declare your SPL to be what you want for the whisker pole when you apply for your rating. (?) Then couldn't your spin pole be shorter than declared (and class legal)?

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 10/16/2007 10:48:39

wmeinert@kconline.com
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Response Posted - 10/16/2007 : 12:53:21

Steve, it was my understanding that the poll length was determined by the the headsail "J" mesurement for each sail, ie 155 or 135 or 110 what ever that J measurement is, that is the max lenght, and your wisker poll is to be banded in some form of identification ie different colors for different sails being used. You couldn't use the the 155 measurement for a 135. That has always been my understanding and the way I use it.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 10/17/2007 : 09:34:14

I think I've found the answer. The lengths of the spinnaker and whisker poles on the Chesapeake Bay are governed by PHRF of the Chesapeake, Inc., which establishes the PHRF handicaps for boats racing on the Chesapeake. That organization limits the maximum length of both spinnaker poles and whisker poles that can be used, without penalty, to pole out any spinnaker or any jib, to the length of the J. I believe, but am not sure, that if your pole is a little too long, you can either shorten it, or they can let you use it, but they'll penalize you for it when they calculate your handicap.

If you're racing one-design, then I believe your class rules will take precedence over the PHRF limitations.

If you're racing under the auspices of a local club, the club can establish it's own rules.

If you're racing PHRF anywhere else than the Chesapeake, then the PHRF governing body that controls that location can establish its own rules.

I'm not absolutely certain of all this, but it's the best information I've received yet, and I believe it to be correct.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 10/17/2007 09:39:12

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 10/17/2007 : 10:18:00

Bill: Does a sail have a "J"? I thought "J" was a boat measurement--from bow to mast parallel to the water. No? If J is for the boat, then Steve's PHRF rule is pretty clear.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 10/17/2007 10:28:27

Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 10/17/2007 : 11:34:20

I don't understand how they can limit a whisker pole to the "J" (from forestay fitting at bow to front of mast along the deck). I cannot imagine running a 155% with a 10' pole - it would be better to stay poleless and sail the angles, which I had to do once when my foredeck guy dropped the pole overboard (we still won the race!)

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 10/17/2007 : 12:05:18

It's not a "limit"--it's just that if the pole is longer, it'll affect your rating like other things do.

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Champipple
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Response Posted - 10/17/2007 : 14:43:04

Derek - you are exactly right, there is little benefit to poling out the headsail with a pole the length of the J dimension. Though some argue that you shouldn't be heading that far down if the wind is light enough to require a pole.

Steve - you should be able to band the pole. Most PHRF association's rules allow it -- Essentially two peices of tape that have to touch - i.e. no part of the pole can be visible (extended) between the two pieces.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 10/17/2007 : 16:28:57

How does your rating change - do they take off 1 sec/mile for every foot extra deployed? IMHO a boat sailing off the wind where the main blankets the genoa, needs an efficient way to deploy the genoa and should not be penalized for being efficient. It just does not make any sense.

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 10/17/2007 : 20:29:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 IMHO a boat sailing off the wind where the main blankets the genoa, needs an efficient way to deploy the genoa and should not be penalized for being efficient. It just does not make any sense.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Maybe the philosophy is that a boat with that short a pole is equivalent to a boat with no pole, and will be ignored; and that a longer pole is an advantage over a boat with none, so longer ones will be considered in handicapping (like spin & no-spin).

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 10/18/2007 : 08:28:09

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Maybe the philosophy is that a boat with that short a pole is equivalent to a boat with no pole, and will be ignored; and that a longer pole is an advantage over a boat with none, so longer ones will be considered in handicapping (like spin & no-spin).<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">That could be, Dave. I'm going to experiment next year running wing-and-wing with a short pole and without a pole. I'm wondering whether there's much difference, if at all, in the amount of exposed sail area, and also whether there's much difference in how the boat reacts when you sail by the lee or try to reach up a little bit.

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Champipple
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Response Posted - 10/18/2007 : 09:01:17

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 How does your rating change - do they take off 1 sec/mile for every foot extra deployed? IMHO a boat sailing off the wind where the main blankets the genoa, needs an efficient way to deploy the genoa and should not be penalized for being efficient. It just does not make any sense.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You are rated for a J dimension pole. If you declare a bigger one, they penalize based on percentage. Then regardless of use you carry the penalty. Same goes if you have a bigger spinnaker pole or a 170 genny. If you have it, you carry the penalty.

Steve - I'd just scrap the Jam concept and grab an nice asym for that boat.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Maybe the philosophy is that a boat with that short a pole is equivalent to a boat with no pole, and will be ignored; and that a longer pole is an advantage over a boat with none, so longer ones will be considered in handicapping<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Dave - Close, however PHRF rules never reward you for not having equipment...i.e. not having a pole at all or only carrying a 110% jib etc. In this case a hit to the rating occurs when you obtain advantage by using a longer pole over the standard of a J length pole.

There is some advantage to poling out the jib, just not much. IMHO I think part of a larger issue here is that PHRF was never meant to handicap JAM boats, only spin. JAM came as an afterthought and ratings followed. Each individual location holding their own keys to their own kingdoms has caused a lot of problems, much the reason PHRF is dying and making way for the newer rating systems in the true race boat fleets.

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Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 10/18/2007 : 10:00:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Steve - I'd just scrap the Jam concept and grab an nice asym for that boat.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Actually, Duane, I bought a symmetrical spinnaker last year, and spent all this year getting my boat rigged to fly it. I'm anxious to try it out next year.

I'm also looking for an asym this winter, because I can fly it singlehanded on those (many) light air days on the Bay.

But for racing, there's still a lot of good JAM racing around here, and I think my boat and I can be competitive in that class. But, I definitely have to figure out how to sail downwind efficiently, given the pole length limitation, with either a single or twin headsails. When you're accustomed to racing with a long telescoping pole, it forces you to re-think everything about downwind sailing. For example, at the moment I'm trying to figure out how to tack downwind efficiently when you're flying twin jibs, with one poled out, when the windspeed is alternately puffing and lulling. By the time you get all the sails and pole re-adjusted, the windspeed might change again, requiring you to go through all that again.

I'm beginning to think like Dave, that using the short pole doesn't make much difference. When we were racing downwind with twin jibs during last year's Gov. Cup, we broke our pole and had to fly both jibs poleless, and I don't think we lost much speed, if any, as a result.

I've often wondered why some good racers around here rarely set a pole downwind. Now I'm beginning to understand.

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 10/18/2007 : 10:10:35

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 I've often wondered why some good racers around here rarely set a pole downwind. Now I'm beginning to understand.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Perhaps to be able to play the puffs and shifts better, including quick jibes.

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Champipple
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Response Posted - 10/18/2007 : 14:44:40

twin Jibs - is this a baby stay rig or two headsails on a luff track?

Usually PHRF only allows for one headsail at a time excluding sail changes

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Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 10/19/2007 : 17:08:06

Twin jibs are flown around here on a single headstay with two luff slots.

The general rule here is that twin jibs are prohibited unless specifically permitted by the sailing instructions. It appears that it is becoming popular to allow them.

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Champipple
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Response Posted - 10/20/2007 : 11:17:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 Twin jibs are flown around here on a single headstay with two luff slots.

The general rule here is that twin jibs are prohibited unless specifically permitted by the sailing instructions. It appears that it is becoming popular to allow them.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Interesting...I've wondered about how that might work on a fun cruise - never thought about it racing.

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Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 10/20/2007 : 12:48:53

We don't allow twin jibs in our races, it's only permitted during a headsail change.

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Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 10/22/2007 : 08:54:31

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Interesting...I've wondered about how that might work on a fun cruise - never thought about it racing.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I'm still trying to figure out the techniques, but the short pole won't permit you to sail as close to the wind as a genoa held out by a long pole. As the boat comes up to windward, the belly of the genoa on the pole will either roll aft of the headstay or it will roll forward of the headstay. You don't generally want it to go aft of the headstay. If it goes forward of the headstay, then you can reach to windward a few more degrees, while keeping both headsails drawing. It looks awful, but it's still driving the boat.

I've tried something that I haven't seen anyone do yet, but I think it might be useful occasionally. If you can't reach as high as you'd like by the above method, using both genoas, then you can take down the pole on the genoa that's poled-out, and gybe the sail over to the leeward side. It'll lie smoothly against the windward side of the other genoa, and you can trim it neatly. That will enable you to reach up as close to windward as you wish, just as if you're only flying one genoa. The advantage of it is that, if you want to bear off downwind again and deploy the twin jibs, all you have to do is gybe the one jib and set the pole. It eliminates the need to lower and raise one of the jibs to change from one course to the other. If you're racing in light air or winds that are highly variable in direction, it makes it easier to react to big wind shifts, or to go hunting for better winds.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 10/22/2007 08:57:50

Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 10/22/2007 : 17:49:14

It's interesting to note that, using a correct length pole and sailing the correct angle I can almost hold off a J-22 flying a chute...I'm sorry but I don't agree that a pole "isn't much of an advantage". In our PHRF fleet we only race JAM and anyone who tries to go poleless is DFL.

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Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 10/23/2007 : 10:48:18

I agree with Derek that using a pole on a masthead rigged boat is a huge advantage, but on a fractional rig, with a proportionately smaller jib, it's not nearly so important, and a lot of folks around here don't bother with them. The Triton has a fractional rig. Last Saturday, we were on a broad reaching leg, and our competitors were flying spinnakers. We didn't fly our chute, because the wind was so strong that we didn't feel we really needed the chute to keep up. When we got a strong puff, we bore off approximately dead downwind, wing and wing, without a pole. When we got far enough downwind that we were able to sail to the next mark on a beam reach, we gybed the jib and headed for the mark at high speed. Meanwhile, the leader broached during that leg, and I believe we gained on him overall as a result.

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Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 10/23/2007 : 10:58:37

I agree with Steve on the difference between a masthead and a fractional rig - that's why I've never seen any real advantage flying a chute on a C25 compared to a poled-out 155% genoa.

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