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Help with Reefing

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RedRedWhine
Navigator

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USA
167 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/23/2007 : 22:42:10

OK. I have a big question. I am haveing a hard time reefing. I should be able to reef from the cockpit with the lines. Ihave tried to follow the drawing in the manual but I just seem to be doing something wrong. Does anyone have a video or a set of step by step direction. Thanks directions.

Don and Kim Young
Las Vegas Nv
http://web.me.com/bolter303/Our_World/Welcome.html

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 05/23/2007 : 23:15:01

I have the same question. Can someone put up step by step pictures please?

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 05/24/2007 : 07:25:40

What exactly is the problem? Reefing should be fairly straight forward provided your lines are led properly.What kind of reefing system do you have - single line? double line?

- Sail to windward
- Tension your topping lift if you have one (strongly advised for this procedure)
- Slacken the main sheet slightly so the main is luffing but still providing forward momentum.
- Release the main halyard enough to allow the first set of reefing crinkles to reach the boom.
- Adjust your reefing line(s).
- Tension the luff of the main.
- Tie off the reef points to the boom.

I have found that a rigid boom vang makes the process much safer and effortless. You should at least have a topping lift to make the operation as easy as possible.

Edited by - aeckhart on 05/24/2007 07:28:18

frankr
Captain

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256 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2007 : 11:35:42

Check out the follow archive link on reefing single line
[url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11396&SearchTerms=reefing"]secondreef[/url]

Edited by - frankr on 05/30/2007 11:38:00

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 05/24/2007 : 12:19:00

My reefing set up is a little different than most since I use small blocks on the reefing line to eliminate the drag associated with the line going through the reef cringles. Here is my procedure:
Loosen the mainsheet.
Loosen the boom vang.
Tighten the topping lift bring the boom up about a foot.
Release the main halyard to the mark. My main halyard is marked were it should be after the first reef is put in.
Pull the reef line in until the forward block is even with the bottom of the boom attachment plate and the rear block is on the boom.
Release the topping lift until the sail is supporting the boom plus a couple of inches.
Tighten the main halyard to remove all luff wrinkles.
Sheet in the vang tight and then the main until the tails fly.

Here are some pictures of my setup.

Block setup

Luff reef block. The block should be even with the bottom of the boom attachment plate when completed.

Leach reef block

One other thing; if you think you will have to reef be sure and attach the main halyard to the outboard hole of the sail headboard. This insures a tight leach when you reef.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 05/24/2007 : 13:02:12

Thanks for the photos Frog. I just bought rings and small blocks for our reefing and will set it up this weekend just like yours. Do you have a second reef setup as well?

Never heard about that main halyard attachment point idea but it makes sense. Good tip.

Edited by - on

frankr
Captain

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Response Posted - 05/24/2007 : 13:41:19

I set up both my first and second reefs like frog did. Here is a picture showing the first reef set and the lines and blocks for the second reef.

. It does make flaking the main over the boom a little messy with all the extra loose lines. I added a triple rope clutch on the starboard side for the 1st and second reef lines, a couple of cheek blocks on the boom (attached by tapping and bolting them on, use a anti size compound and tape behind the blocks since stainless and aluminum don't co-exist well.

Edited by - frankr on 05/24/2007 13:45:29

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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4479 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2007 : 16:01:08

Randy,
Can you post part numbers of the rings & blocks you're going to use for your reef points? Photos would be handy as well if you've got them. We want to do this as well. With a tall rig & a blustery Puget Sound, we're going to be taking more precautions regarding high winds. We also picked up a storm jib. Don't want to get in the same situation as two weeks ago.

Edited by - on

Russ.Johnson
Commodore

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USA
843 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2007 : 23:24:16

Don and Steve

The original single-line "Jiffy Reef" system doesn't work very well.
It also is not designed to be lead to the cockpit.

I just converted to two line reefing.
It allows more control to tighten the tack before tightening the clew.
If the clew tightens first, the luff slugs can tear from the mast track.

The first line is from the gooseneck through the reef tack, down to a turning block, through a cheek block, to a rope clutch.

The second line is the original "Jiffy Reef" line.
Starts at the boom, through the reef clew, around the boom sheeve, through the boom, around the gooseneck sheeve, down to a turning block, through a cheek block, to a rope clutch.

Russ #793

Edited by - on

frog0911
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Response Posted - 05/25/2007 : 10:05:12

That is what is so nice about the block system. If you mark the halyard and release to that point and lock when you pull in the reef the Tack block will tighten the luff first and as you continue to pull in the reef the clew will tighten the foot and leach last. Without the block system the single line system with the drag caused by line through bare cringles will function just the opposite (clew and then tack). The other item that makes the block system good is you can pull in and release the reef on any point of sail. I don't run a loose footed main, so I cannot vouch for how the system would operate with that condition.
As for the second reef, I have not set my system to accomplish this since my sailing conditions with a standard rig have not reach the point were I required it. My thought on this if required would be to put hooks on the blocks rather than the rings. This would allow the release of the reef line and movement to the second reef point after dropping the main. I do know for sure, if the conditions reach that point with my standard rig, I would have the iron jenny in the water not sails up. I have sailed many a race with the first reef in and a full 135 with 20+ winds and still keep the boat in balance using the mainsheet during gusts. To me boat balance in the 250 is 20 degrees or less heal angle with some weather helm. This does require constant attention, but under those conditions, set them and forget them is not an option. I am sure once I get Arlyn's steering system installed the boat wondering will also decrease once the steering slop is removed and more positive inputs to the rudder with wheel movement is attained.
That's it IMHO.

Edited by - frog0911 on 05/25/2007 10:08:44

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 05/26/2007 : 19:08:55

Well, I just finished figuring out my reefing system, at least the first reef. The PO could have never reefed the way it was set up before unless he had the lines rigged differently than what they were earlier today.

Anyway, I've got the first reef figured out, which gets my tall rig down to what the rest of you guys normally sail with roughly. There was a suggestion somewhere along the line to use reefing hooks & blocks so you would just re-use the reefing lines by moving them up to the next set of reef points. Not a bad idea, except there's no way to reach the aft reefpoint without first lowering of the sail so you could reach it, so you'd need a reefing line to be able to rig the reefing blocks. So I need to run lines to set up my second set of reefs now. There's another sheave at the aft end of the boom, but it's much smaller than the reefing sheave, it's about the same size as the outhaul. Has anyone used it for the second reef turning point? It seems like running blocks down the side of the boom is a bad idea, you'd tie off your first reef over your second reefing lines so they wouldn't easily move.

I'm thinking a small diameter high tech line, like 1/8" - 3/16" kevlar or something to the aft reef point, down and around the small sheave, splice to 3/8" and through the boom to the forward turning point, which is 3/8" (I think), so I'd have to make a splice from the small stuff to some 3/8" line, down to a turning block, up to the forward reef point, down to a turning block > deck organizer > clutch. I have everything except the turning block for the mast, and the line.

The catch is, is the boom long enough to contain the entire small line if I make the splice immediately after it makes the turn onto the sheave in the aft end? I need to run my main all the way back up the mast to make the measurement to the upper reef point. I'm guessing that the line will end up longer than the boom. Do they make dual channel cheek blocks? A smaller diameter groove inside a larger? I suppose I could cut the length in half by tying off the small stuff at the reef point to a stainless ring or something but I'd be losing leverage doing that. Need to get the measurements first & start figuring out the math.

Has anyone done this?

Edited by - on

Tom Potter
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Response Posted - 05/26/2007 : 20:53:00

David,
I have the TR as well, I by passed the first set of reef points (since it just gets me to a standard rig size) and use the second set. I might try to work up a second reefing line someday but for now just using the second set of reefing points is working just fine.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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3704 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2007 : 11:51:50

David, here are the components I bought from WM. The blocks are Ronstan RF30100 ($19.99) and the rings are Seafit CO139-0530-W ($9.99). The rings are 1 ¼” and perhaps I could gave gone to 1” or ¾” but I don’t know. We’ll be putting on the hardware today and I’ll post if a smaller size could have done it. I am partial to the Ronstan blocks because I think they are a good value but all the manufacturers make similar units. Just make sure you get a swiveling shackle head.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 05/28/2007 11:53:02

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 05/28/2007 : 23:09:45

Installed the reefing and used it today. It worked great! I do think that a 3/4" ring would be the right size so I will go smaller.

Turk, looking at the photos of your setup it lookes like the aft reef line goes through the brass grommet at the bollom of the sail. Is that right? I think I like that placement more than further back like the manual describes.

Edited by - on

AADIVER
Admiral

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Response Posted - 05/28/2007 : 23:54:55

"...it lookes like the aft reef line goes through the brass grommet at the bollom of the sail. Is that right? I think I like that placement more than further back like the manual describes."

Wouldn't that constrict the outhaul and prevent adjustment to the foot? No problem for me since I have a loose foot and secure the aft reef line around the boom, not thru the grommet.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 05/29/2007 : 06:47:13

The second reef point clew is too far forward to use an aft boom sheeve and route the line through the boom... the pull down angle is wrong.

A second reef point will need a cheek block added to the boom. This can be done either by deciding where the best angle of pull is and screwing/riveting the block to the boom or using a car block that mounts on a rail attached to the boom so there is adjustment of the placement of the block. I mounted mine in a fixed position with rivets and it seems fine.

Additional rigging for the soecond reef will depend upon if the lines are led to cockpit. There are several options.

A settup that is managed from the coachroof will have in addition to the cheek block aft, a cleat forward on the boom on the same side as the cheek block and one or two eye straps along the boom to channel the line. The cleat should be a horned jam cleat as it is not wise to use cam cleats on reefing lines. That will handle the clew. The tack simply requires using one of the two stock horned cleats on the mast.

Settup for running to the cockpit is different and depends upon available clutches. If two are available, then in addition to the clew cheek block aft on the side of the boom...another cheek block needs to be forward to turn the line down towards the mast base for bending the clew line back to the deck organizers. The tack is handled by simply routing the tack line down to the mast base and to the organizers.

If there is only one clutch available, use it for the tack line and route the clew line aft to an additional horn (jam) cleat added at the end of the boom on the same side as the cheek block. This line can be managed from the cockpit.

btw, when routing a clew line first bend the line onto the becket of the cheek block (a post on the cheek block sometimes having a mounting screw through it) and then route the line under the boom, up through the clew cringle and then down to the block and forward along the boom.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 05/29/2007 : 06:56:38

Frank... this if of no big consequence...just offering a suggestion here... above you offered a link... the link is longer than a normal text line so it expands the screen width causing every post in the thread to expand with it resulting in the need to scroll sideways to read the various post to the thread. This can be avoided by naming links rather than simply pasting them. It does take an extra step on the posters part but it save much trouble for all the readers.

I do is as follows. I click format mode and change it to prompt... then click the insert hyperlink button and then just follow the windows which will first ask for a name for the link and the next window allows pasting the link.

Again... no big thing... if you went back and changed it to a name, the thread would revert back to one with no need to scroll

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 05/29/2007 : 09:46:36

Frank, I'm thinking that the line would not have to be real tight around the boom after going through that grommet. It just needs to serve as the anchor point for the pull down. The outhaul could still function.

I do want to add a second reef so will begin studying more carefully the various posts about that.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 05/29/2007 : 10:34:36

Randy,
Tom's last post got me thinking. My boom has two sheaves (well three counting the outhaul), one 3/8" & another about 3/16" or so like for a cable. My original thought was to try to run some small high tech stuff through the smaller sheave to rig the upper reef point, but (A), the cost would be significant, and (B), the length would be such that when you pulled in the reef, you'd end up pulling on the small line which wouldn't be too kindly on your hands.

My new thought is to rig the first reef with the small stuff, and rig the second reef with the 3/8" instead. This way I can (probably) do a splice immediately behind the sheave from 3/16" to 3/8". The shorter distance may keep the small stuff inside the boom so that I can still have 3/8" where it runs through the turning blocks and back to my clutches. I haven't done the measurements for this yet, but I'm guessing that roughly 8' of small stuff would be required, which leaves about 3' in my boom roughly (remember I'm a tall rig).

This may work for your boat as well. I hope to do the measurements this evening.

Edited by - delliottg on 05/29/2007 10:39:08

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 05/29/2007 : 12:14:33

Dave, is the issue your clutches? I don't see why you couldn't use just 3/16 line (high tech, super duty) for the whole second reef setup. Once the second reef is in there isn't that much pressure to hold back plus you'd have lighter line and components higher up on the sail.

In re-reading your post I see the "hand" issue. We used the winch for reefing. Plus if the Admiral complains I just yell "pull the line in you scurvy wench."

Then I jump off the boat.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 05/29/2007 12:18:29

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 05/29/2007 : 13:48:10

Dave...four post up I comment that the aft boom sheave that you refer to will not work for the second reef because a reef clew must be pulled both aft and down. The aft sheave can pull it aft no problem but downward pull would be almost non existent. It will do well for the first reef that is farther aft but the angle is wrong for the second reef point.

The small sheave you refer to is for an adjustable topping lift if it is desired... it won't work well for the second reef line unless another line is used with it. What I mean is that there would actually be two lines to the second reef clew... an outhaul through the small sheave and a downhaul around the boom.

Ideally the second reef clew line should haul at about a 45 degree aft angle so that it both outhauls and downhauls.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 05/29/2007 13:50:03

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 05/29/2007 : 14:15:31

Arlyn,
Ah, now I understand what you were saying, it didn't make sense the first time around. I'd still need a turning block on the boom somewhere aft of the upper reef point to get the down & aftward pull working properly. Otherwise the sail would tend to ride up with the end of the boom as it's fulcrum.

Thanks for the clarification.

It's have been nice if Catalina had sorted this out for us instead of having to muddle about figuring it out. Although I have to admit I like figuring stuff like this out.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 05/29/2007 : 14:18:54

I'm a bit confused, nothing new there! Frankr seems to have a second reef that goes to the aft of the boom (can't exactly tell) but Arlyn feels that the back of boom arrrangement does not provide sufficient leverage and I understand his point. Has anyone out there used the starboard internal boom setup for a second reef and feel like it works? Not trying to start a fight but I much prefer in-boom lines and gear.

Or, if Frankr's photo was wider, would I see that he is not using the internal lines as per Arlyn's comments?

Edited by - Nautiduck on 05/29/2007 14:21:45

AADIVER
Admiral

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966 Posts

Response Posted - 05/29/2007 : 15:38:07

Hey, Frog, I did your reefing mod and guess what: IT WORKS! I used Harken blocks instead of Ronstan, almost identical. Since my reefing line runs outside the boom, along the port side, I have a block attached at the tack, so I lead the line thru it, up to the luff cringle block, then down to a block at the base of the mast, over to the starboard attached block, and back to the inboard starboard clutch. Now even though the reefing line is on the port side of the boom, I can handle the reefing line and main halyard from the dual starboard clutches.
Thanks for the mod tip! Pics coming.
And Arlyn, per your above post, if I be the Frank you're addressing...haven't a clue what you mean since I haven't
provided any links in my posts.

Edited by - AADIVER on 05/29/2007 15:39:37

RedRedWhine
Navigator

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Response Posted - 05/29/2007 : 19:59:30

Thank you all for the replies. My reef system does not look like any of the pictures. The PO set it up wrong. I was out this weekend and it was blowing hard. I sailed with the main only and it was tough. I need to work on a reefing system. I found that I have two broken sail slugs and the topping lift line is frayed and needs to be replaced first. My question is can I replace the topping lift with out lowering the mast? I do not have a trailer, if I have to do it from the slip can the mast be lowered on the water? Also how hard is it to change out the sail slugs and what is the best kind to buy and install.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 05/30/2007 : 06:10:01

Frank... the comment was to the other Frank.

Don... popping sail slugs is generally but not always the result of using a winch during reefing. The cause is usually that the slugs hang up or are held up by the mast screw that prevents them from dropping into the feeder slot. Sometimes it might be that the clew is pulled aft when winching the line but I'm thinking this less common.

There are two ways to deal with the slugs... one is to use mast gates on the feeder slot and remove the mast screw allowing the slugs pass the feeder slot without coming out. The other is to leave the mast screw stopper in and have the slugs mounted on a jack line. The jack line is difficult to describe but its purpose is to allow the tack to be pulled down while leaving the slugs to float above the mast plug (thumb screw in the mast). One or the other of these two systems must be in play during reefing to allow the tack to be pulled down to the boom gooseneck.

Generally, mast gates will be installed on a slipped boat and jack lines used on a trailer sailor. I don't have a picture of the jack lines and they are difficult to describe.

btw... for a few years of production of the 250, Catalina did route the jiffy reef line to the cockpit but discontinued doing so. Usually when they stop doing something it is because it causes them a warranty issue... and I think it is likely that the use of a winch during reefing was the issue.

A reefing system should be obtained that does not need a winch to set. It is very difficult when using a winch to feel when a slug is hung up and a winch can pop em fairly easy.

Edited by - on

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