Association Forum - First Time Splash -The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

First Time Splash -The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

Page: of 2

John Hill
1st Mate

Member Avatar

USA
25 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/31/2007 : 22:05:44

I won't go into everything at length here. I did that on TrailerSailor.com.

The single greatest issue was the roller at the top of the mast raising extension on the trailer. It is slightly cocked to one side. Before I knew it the strap ran off of the roller and was stuck between the roller and metal. After several hours (and I do mean several) of up and down, and attempts to make the strap track properly, I was able to get the mast up but not before putting tears in the strap. I will have to resolve this issue before pulling her out of the water. Fortunately I rented a slip for a year so there is no big hurry.

Other problems can largely be chalked up to ignorance involved with a new boat. ...and occasional poor judgement on my part

I did experience problems that have been discussed at length here. Things I expected, experienced, recognized and overcame. In particular, steerage problems in reverse, and tendency to turn left as you start to motor forward. The latter didn't dawn on me until I got home. I kept thinking it was the wind (a hold over assumption from my Mac26X days).

I did manage to sail a little on Monday under main only. Very nice. It brought to my attention the need to do a little tuning under load as the leeward shrouds appeared too loose.

The line on my CDI roller furler seems to be jammed at the top somehow. It looks fine through binoculars. The furler hadn't been removed from the mast since it was lowered the previous season by the previous owner. I can't say I tested the line prior to raising, a future addition to the pre-mast raising checklist. It is going to be inspected for me by a local yacht service shop.

This board has already been a big help. It makes me wonder what people did before forums like this.

I spent four days down and three of the four nights at the slip. I didn't get to sail much but I learned a lot in four days. I know there is a lot more to learn, but I can already tell we are going to really enjoy this boat. We are headed back down on Saturday.

John Hill

C250 WK #516
Raymore, Mo

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2007 : 07:56:51

Good work, John! We're all learning! I just want to question one thing you are planning to do--tuning the rig "under load"... If you tighten the shrouds on the lee side while sailing, you're essentially pulling the mast to that side. After you tack, the other side will appear tight, meaning you haven't tuned it evenly. IMHO, you should do your tuning at the dock, making sure your mast is vertical and in column (tipped forward or aft as necessary for the helm you want), observe the results under sail, and repeat if necessary.

BTW, a little slack on the leeward shrouds is not necessarily bad. Tightening everything down too much can put excessive stress on the rig. I kept mine so the leeward shrouds were barely slack, but not waving in the breeze. I also kept the mast tipped slightly aft for slight weather helm (on a C-25). I won't get into uppers vs. lowers, since I didn't have a C-250 (and am no expert). Hopefully, somebody who does and is will chime in here.

Have a great year with your new yacht!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 06/01/2007 08:07:24

John Hill
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
25 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2007 : 09:03:01

I'm going to double check shroud adjustment at the dock first. I read in the manual you should adjust at the dock and then make some adjustments while under load. It also says the shrouds should never be loose.

Previous experience (different boat) suggests the leeward shrouds can be a little slack. Mine seemed pretty sloppy under load, closer to your "waving in the breeze" category.

It was enough so, I felt concern. I plan on using caution and not over tighten.

I can't wait to get back out!

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2007 : 10:08:25

But your manual doesn't change them. I feel better about keeping the mast straight (the lowers) and vertical (the uppers) by adjusting at the dock.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2007 : 10:14:51

You're in the water!

Do fix that strap, you wouldn't want it to ever fail. Could you drill a hole through each side of the roller mount on the trailer mast rasing extension and put a 1/4" bolt through the opening above the roller? That would keep the strap contained. Of course fixing the pole so it is straight would be best but the bolt idea would work. The mast raising system is wonderful when it works.

Edited by - on

John Hill
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
25 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2007 : 11:46:46

One suggestion made to me, is replace the roller with a polished stainless steel round bar that goes end to end. The strap should easily slide and there will be no gap to "eat" the strap.

I've thought about having my brother re-create the extension at his shop too. I think that would be easier than trying to straighten what I have.

...and don't worry I'm not about to use that same strap over. I was sweating it as it was.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2007 : 12:09:27

Good report John... and I also read the account over on the Trailer Sailor.

As to reverse steerage, the 3rd generation rudder does better than the 2nd... but even so the 250 enjoys coupling the outboard and rudder via a soft link. Wanted is a simple system because if powering at more than no wake speed, it needs disconnected and the motor centered. The soft link provides an easy way to disconnect from coupling and then hold the motor centered. As to the motor offset affecting the steerage... the motor position can be easily adjusted to compensate. A good many 250 owners find the soft link worthy.

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/softlink.html"]Soft Link[/url]

As to the furler... are you saying that the foresail is stuck aloft and won't come back down or that you can't get the car to raise the sail?

Here is a brief overview of the CDI furler. The CDI has a complicated three part halyard, one section is bent on the sail head, leads up to the top of furler and enters the furler and goes over the sheave and then is bent onto the internal eye of a car that runs up and down the front of the furler extrusion.

The car also has an external eye to which is bent a piece of 3/16 line about three feet long. This line cleats to the furler drum cleat after the sail is raised and holds the sail aloft.

Now the confusing part. When lowering the sail... a third temporary section of halyard perhaps 25 ft is made to the three foot line with a square knot. This allows the car to go aloft and be retrievable. That piece of line stays connected while the sail is removed from the furler.

On the tack of the sail, a 3/32 x 6 ft downhaul line is bent. It is very small line but roves through the furler drum slot and the sail tack about three times giving it six or so strands. And... it serves as a block and tackle and is used to tension the sail luff rather than the halyard. Just raise the halyard fully aloft and then tension with the downhaul.

The temporary halyard is needed so that a long halyard doesn't have to find a place to be coiled or dealt with... the three foot section makes to the cleat and has little extra to deal with. After pulling the sail up, untie the square knot from the three foot section and then cleat it and store the temporary in the bag.

If your sail is not installed and you only have one section of line at the deck... then someone goofed and either did not bend a temporary piece or pulled the car down raising the aft section that goes on the sail without the sail being attached.

A good way to ensure that something isn't raised requiring a trip aloft or dropping the mast is to once the sail is removed, feed the loose end of the temporary halyard through the drum and then knot it to the aft section of halyard and in doing forming a halyard loop.

A lot of words... hope it becomes clear

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5895 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2007 : 13:04:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Hill
 I read in the manual you should adjust at the dock and then make some adjustments while under load. It also says the shrouds should never be loose.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> When you adjust the mast at the dock, you are adjusting it for it's correct orientation, both fore-and-aft and laterally. When you adjust it while underway, you don't want to disturb those adjustments. When under way, you're only adjusting the shroud tension. The way to do that is to always adjust the port and starboard shrouds on each side by an equal number of turns.

Shrouds should never be bar-tight, but they also should not become so slack that the leeward shroud is able to sway. They should be adjusted so that, when under a load, the leeward shrouds just relax, while still remaining straight. By being adjusted in that manner, the rig can't move back and forth when the boat goes from port to starboard tack. If the rig is able to move appreciably, it can cause the shrouds to wear prematurely due to metal fatigue. If the rig is too loose, you might not notice any adverse effects until you get in choppy seas. In those conditions, you can actually hear a banging sound, as the rig slams back and forth.

Edited by - on

John Hill
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
25 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2007 : 13:34:40

Arlyn,

Regarding the furler: The sail is not on. The line is in place with the temporary halyard but I'm unable to pull the sail aloft. From the manual (from memory) for the furler, the halyard goes aloft, over a wheel and back down the other side as in pic from the manual.

The halyard simply will not go one way or the other. It travels a very small distance and stops. I can't pull too hard for fear the temporary halyard will break. Examination with binoculars show no obvious problem. My guess is the service shop will have to go aloft (I hope I'm wrong).

Your post makes sense but I think I need to read it through a few times to really understand and make it stick.

I've read about your soft link and I'm considering it. I may have to adjust the motor mount as it has very little room to turn.

Steve,

Thanks for the clarification. That makes sense. I may have started down the wrong path on that one. Thanks for the input.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2007 : 14:15:40

John,

This was the most confusing part of rigging Kaija. (She's also new to me this season) It just seemed backwards. The Halyards don't seem to fit. The end of the halyard on Kaija did not come down the entire length of the furler and that made me think it was stuck somewhere and that I was surely doing something wrong. What I finally did was to slide the sail up the slot a little way until it met the halyard. Then simply raised from the other side. I don't know if you're facing the same quandary but, once I did this, it made a certain amount of sense. I guess what I'm trying to say is that at first glance, the sail looks like it should attach at the end of the halyard that is on the opposite side from the sail slot. it doesn't. The drawing in the manual also made me think that the halyard end that was actually hoisting the sail was internal to the furler. It isn't. I was also surprised by the lack of shackle connection to the sail. Anyway, The furler rigging didn't make any intuitive sense to me but, I got the sail up and furled.

BTW, were you an Air Force hospital administrator in a previous life?

Edited by - on

John Hill
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
25 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2007 : 17:20:00

I basically have two lines coming off opposite sides, one at the top of the furler, the other a small distance down from the top of the furler. I can stand on the fore deck with a line in each hand and I'm unable to pull either line.

Too your question: I was a Marine in a previous life, four years, mid to late 70s. I've been doing computers for about 30 years. Any hospital I administrate would probably have problems, but they would have a great computer system.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2007 : 17:56:43

Then there's something wierd. I wonder if you might not have a sheave broken or the line off of the sheave at the masthead end of the furler. It sounds like the mast is going to need to come down or somebody is going for a ride in a bosun's chair.

Or, ( a question for our more experienced friends) is it possible to disconnect the forestay while securing the mast using the main halyard to a forward cleat? Once the forestay is disconnected, is it possible to slide the furler luff down to a workable height? Essentially un-install and re-install the furler? That seems like a better alternative than going up the mast.

I was once stationed with a Capt. John Hill, USAF, MSC.

Edited by - on

Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1913 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2007 : 18:55:12

Yes, you can secure the mast with an halyard and remove a CDI furler without taking the mast down. I installed my CDI furler at the dock with the mast up by securing the mast with the jib halyard. Then disconnected the forestay at the bow attachment, removed the turn buckle then slid the furler up the forestay the for the install. Reattach the turnbuckle and reattach forestay to the bow. You would just need to do it in reverse. It can be done by one person but more hands would make it much easier.

Edited by - Tom Potter on 06/01/2007 19:01:42

britinusa
Web Editor

Members Avatar

USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2007 : 19:11:49

John, is the ferrule at the lower end of the furler?
If not, perhaps it has caught up at the top.
I would suggest a sharp tug would release it.
Here's our process (we remove the jib after every sail)

Sail is in the bag.
Ferruled end of the furler halyard is at the bottom, still in the track.
Messenger line is attached to the head end of the halyard at the top of the furler and to one of the shackles on the furler drum at the bottom.

step 1. Pull the head end of the furler halyard down to the bow using the messenger line. To do this, I detach the lower end of the messenger and tie it to the lower end of the furler halyard (at the ferrule end), then pull the head of the halyard down using the messenger, the tail of the halyard pulls the lower end of the messenger up the furler.
Step 2. The head end of the furler halyard is not at the bow. Untie the messenger from the halyard and Attach the halyard to the head of the Jib.
Step 3. Hoist the jib by pulling on the messenger which is still attached to the ferrule end of the furler halyard, it's tough as our messeger line is really skimpy.
Step 4. When the sail is fully up, I detach the messenger from the lower end of the furler halyard and secure the halyard to one of the two shackles.
Step 5. secure the tack of the sail by using the tail of the halyard to lace between the drum shackle and the sail tack cringle, tieing it off with a few half hitches.

Long winded, and of no value if you can't lower the halyard.

If the halyard is jambed at the head, then I would lower the mast and fix it if the quick tug doesn't free it.

So, is the ferrule at the lower end right now?

Paul

Edited by - on

John Hill
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
25 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2007 : 07:42:52

I'm heading down this morning to attack the problem again. The local yacht service was/is going to take a look at it. They said they may not get to it until next week though. If it is still stuck I'll try to take some pictures to help clarify things.

I've learned more about furlers in the last week than I did the four years we had our Mac. The Mac came with the sail on the furler. The sail had the uv protective fabric so we never took the sail off. There wasn't a need.

I should have some news late Sunday.

Edited by - on

moserd
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
149 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2007 : 16:28:19

Arlyn,

Above you mentioned the following:

"Now the confusing part. When lowering the sail... a third temporary section of halyard perhaps 25 ft is made to the three foot line with a square knot. This allows the car to go aloft and be retrievable. That piece of line stays connected while the sail is removed from the furler."

Since I have never lowered my jib (yet) I was wondering, does this knot where you join the three foot line (square knot) to the temporary halyard require the temp halyward to go up into the extrusion or does it stay outside? I can't quite visualize this and originaly thought that the knot was have to go into a small hole / track. (I can just see this getting stuck! :()

Thanks so much for the information, I really need to 'wash' my jib, for some reason it has a little 'green' stuff at the foot; I thought about removing it to clean but am somewhat 'cautious' to remove it.

Don

Edited by - on

Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1913 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2007 : 20:56:48

Don,
Your knot will not go into the extrusion or around the sheave.

The "messenger line" acts as a halyard extention. As you pull down your jib, your halyard (that fastens to the furler drum) would go to the top of your furler. You would never be able to reach it to raise your jib again if you did not attach a "messenger line".

Once your ready to put your jib back on, you pull the messenger line to raise your jib. When the jib reaches the top you should be able to untie the messenger line from your halyard and make it fast to your furler drum.

I have my Nordac jib soaking in a 55 gal drum of 1 part bleach - 30 part water solution. I plan to let it soak 2 days. North Sails recommended this for cleaning Dacron.

Edited by - Tom Potter on 06/02/2007 20:59:12

John Hill
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
25 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2007 : 16:33:32

Here are some pics of the line as it goes into the top of the furler.

Jammed at the top! My impressions at this point from the posts here and looking again at the diagram is the halyard ferrule or "car" as Arlyn refered to it, is out of the track? Does that look/sound right?

Edited by - on

Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1913 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2007 : 18:44:59

John, I don't see anything to indicate that the ferrule is out of the track. I may be just jammed. I know you have tried, but if it were me I would work both lines several times back and forth to try and free it. And then keeping the line parallel with the furler I would yank the #$#& out of the messenger line. (standard disclaimers apply)

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

Members Avatar

USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2007 : 19:02:35

JOhn, from that angle, there appear to be a few things amiss.

a) It looks as though the furler is attached to the spinnaker pin at the mast head.
There are two pins that go through the masthead on the forward side, the fwd most pin is for the spinnaker and the one nearer the mast is for the jib.

b) In the first pic, I don't see the extrusion hole that the halyard exits from and the halyard appears to exit off center, should not be possible.

c) The tail of the halyard is so high that the ferrule is almost certainly jambed in the top moulding.

I would lower your mast and fix it.

Paul

Edited by - britinusa on 06/03/2007 19:04:03

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2007 : 19:36:00

Since the boat's in the water, I would secure the mast with a halyard and slide the furler down the forestay rather than taking down the mast. Just walk it down the dock, assuming it's long enough.

Edited by - on

John Hill
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
25 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2007 : 20:16:44

The yacht service at the marina is going to look at it and possibly send someone up the mast. If they are able to do that and fix it great. If not I'll try taking the furler down per John's suggestion. I'm really curious how it got that way.

Also part of my original post regarding a loose shroud: I adjusted the shrouds side to side to even them up. I used the main halyard and measured out to the shroud chainplates. I think it would be helpful if I were to go back to the archives and read through everything I can find on tuning. This boat has been sailed for five to six years I wouldn't think it is too far off from where it should be but I really should assume anything.

We sailed out on Saturday afternoon. The wind was spotty and relatively light. We made our way down the arm of the lake, found a favorite cove, and anchored for the night. This morning (Sunday) we headed out from the cove. It was obvious the wind was much stronger than forcast. I decided we probably should start with a reefed main. The setup per manual made it pretty easy. It was a good decision as the wind continued to pick up. We had to tack up wind to make our way back to the marina.

Even with the adjustment the lower starboard shroud seemed way too loose in the lee. The port lower shroud was not nearly as loose. Here is a short video. Take a look. Part of the time the shroud near the top was brushing against the main. Take a look and let me know what you think. Too loose?

http://www.johnkhill.com/2007/060307/Shroud.wmv

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

Members Avatar

USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2007 : 20:18:31

John, I hadn't thought of 'slide it down the foretay', however, that requires disconnecting the lower turnbuckle, and the risk of the weight of the furler just pulling itself from the stay is pretty high. It's no big deal to lower the mast and I think he has to do that in order to move the furler to the correct headstay pin.

Paul

Edited by - on

Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1913 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2007 : 20:34:36

Yep, I would say that is too loose. There are plenty of [url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15249&SearchTerms=loos"]threads[/url] in the archives on shroud adjustments.

Edited by - Tom Potter on 06/03/2007 20:36:20

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2007 : 20:58:28

Paul is very observant... the forestay is at the wrong pin and this is affecting rig tuning.

It also appears that the halyard has been pulled hard and jammed the car under the top spindle. It is possible that an equally firm pull would bring it down...but why risk it when the headstay needs moved to the proper pin. Someone needs to go aloft or the mast lowered.

btw... the spinnaker pin doesn't work with a CDI... If a spinnaker is rigged, a mast head crane to extend the pin forward a few inches must be used to keep the spinnaker halyard from fouling the furler.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2007 : 21:06:14

I know I'm a novice but is it really "no big deal" to lower the mast on the water? I would agree when it's on the trailer but on the water? I think it would be easier to un-install the furler with the mast secured with a halyard. The CDI installation instructions seem to be pretty clear and not terribly complicated.

John, let me be clear, I'm a real novice and Paul puts his mast up and down a lot. I'm just suggesting that, as a novice, I would be very nervous about lowering the mast without the benefit of the trailer's mast raising device. If you can readily put the boat on the trailer, lowering the mast would also be my option. At my marina that's boat unit ($100) each way for the travel lift.

Hopefully, all will be moot and the marina guys will free it up.

Edited by - John Russell on 06/03/2007 21:07:35

Page: of 2

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.