Association Forum - c250 sail reduction

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

c250 sail reduction

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

Page: of 2

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5894 Posts

Response Posted - 02/12/2004 : 11:09:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I'm wondering if Catalina Yachts engineered enough ballast into the C250's since the two boats have relatively the same sail area, length,...etc.

What do you think? Yes, no, maybe so?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I thought that was a great question. It stirred us to wondering how the designers got similar performance out of the two designs by going in such different directions. When you think about it, the difference in the amount of ballast is astonishing, and the answer has to lie primarily in the type and placement of the ballast, and the shape of the hull and keel. The sail area is almost identical.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">To most fairly accomplish thias that means starting all fleets together. So we could have 20 to 30 boats on the line for the start. That would be exciting!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I agree. One big start makes a very exciting start. But, if there are 30 boats hitting the starting line, and only three of them are in your division, you have to remember that you are only racing against those three boats. As far as you’re concerned, the rest of them are just decorating the seascape. You don’t get your name on a trophy for all the boats you beat that are not in your class.

An important advantage of a single start is that, when all the boats start together, you can get a better comparison of the performance of the boats against each other. That makes the national regatta a valuable opportunity to gather data that will help establish reasonably accurate handicap ratings for the various configurations of C250s.

The performance of the C-25 is well established. If a well-sailed, well-prepped C250 consistently finishes within a few seconds of a well-sailed, well-prepped C25, then you have a reasonable basis for believing that the C250’s rating should be adjusted accordingly. If the two designs don’t start at the same time on the same racecourse, you can’t accurately compare their performances.

At the 2003 national regatta we had an opportunity to see a fair comparison between the performance of the C250 wing keel and the C25. Maybe this year we will be able to see a fair comparison between the performance of the C250 WB and C250 wing keel.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I believe we would all enjoy an overall champion.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Catalina provides the official trophies, and they are the same trophies that have been used for years. The official trophies are rotating ones, and they have to be returned to the National Association before the next regatta. Catalina only provides trophies for the distinct one design classes. That means the C-25s have separate trophies for the tall rig and standard rig divisions. Usually, the sponsoring club also awards a small plaque or burgee that you can keep, that symbolizes your victory. I don’t know what trophies Catalina is providing for the C-250s, but suspect that they would give strong consideration to our recommendations, if our suggestions are reasonable, and based on the actual performance of the boats at a national regatta. Whatever subdivisions are created now will probably be “carved in stone.” I doubt that Catalina would be inclined to change the racing classifications every time there is a change in the thinking of the members of the association.

Catalina does not provide a trophy for an overall champion, based on handicap ratings. In the past, however, the club that sponsored the regatta has sometimes awarded a trophy to the overall champion, based on handicaps. It’s a nice distinction for the person who wins it, but I’m ambivalent as to whether it is good for the Association. I think there is a chance that it might put too much emphasis on the overall champion, and to diminish the achievement of the winner of each division. Personally, I don’t feel strongly about it either way.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/12/2004 : 11:37:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Arlyn Stewart
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">just because a C25 owner asks a question on the C250 forum doesn't automatically mean he's cutting down the current product...so get over it. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Don, Your question was reasonable and I never thought for a second that you were cutting down the 250...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Sorry, if I took it the wrong way, because I do try to avoid the "this vs that" debate due to the fact that we are one big family.

Again, sorry for the misguided inference.

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 02/12/2004 : 12:05:14

Guys, One thing to remember for this regatta: while I am in agreement that one start for 20-30 boats would be great, and would answer a number of performance questions on various models, I have an issue.

With all due respect to Frank, while this IS a good venue, one of the reasons that we "MAY" have a great turnout is that I am promising this to be a FUN event, rather than just "hard-core" racing. I have promised that this event will be a learning tool for folks, some of whom might then feel enabled to come to the next Nationals, etc., or begin racing locally....Also, you have NO IDEA of the amount of WORK has gone into building a 12 boat fleet, nor in making individual contacts with a large number of out of town owners. I spend much time convincing, assuring, cajoling, begging, etc....If somebody gives me a lead that there is a C25 or 250, I run down the lead and invite 'em!

My initial point is that 30 boats on the line can get pretty crazy and provide the sort of crowded situation that can increase the chances of error and/or damage. Sure, a novice can hang back 100 yards from the start to avoid the crowd, but then, the theory about it being a "true test" of how the boats compete is moot.

Frankly, the SKILL of the skipper and crew, the bottom prep and sail inventory will have more to do with who sails well than which particular boat he/she is on. I don't think there is enough "equality" within crews for a boat comparison to have THAT much value....

Anyway, I am leaving to my RC (in consultation, of course) to determine the number of starts. I just don't want to scare people away because the hot dogs think we have to have one start....

We'll see....I suspect this will be a GREAT regatta, whichever start method we choose. My only thought about going to a handicap is.....how soon until the MacGregors get invited to sail with us on handicap, etc.....Aargh...

Gary B.
Vice Commodore

Edited by - Gary B. on 02/12/2004 23:32:32

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 02/12/2004 : 12:31:53

"how soon until the MacGregors get invited to sail with us on handicap, etc..."
Gary - go wash out your mouth! :)
Derek

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 02/12/2004 : 12:36:21

I agree with Steve M. that one start would be ideal to get some comparison performance figures. But I must also agree with Gary B. that 20 - 30 boats on a line can be intimidating to a novice racer (I remember well my first starts...

)
If conditions are much the same as last July/August, then we should have consistent wind - and in this case having the fleets start 5 mins apart will still allow REASONABLE comparison.
Derek

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5894 Posts

Response Posted - 02/12/2004 : 13:28:04

You don't have to decide now whether to have one or two starts. You can wait to see how many boats show up before you make a final decision. If you have less than about 15, however, you should strongly consider having one start.

As the number of boats increases, the length of the starting line should increase to accommodate them. Also, even when all the racers are fairly experienced, they won't all hit the line at the same time or the same place. You won't see smart, experienced racers at the nationals making risky, aggressive starts. If you have a five race regatta, for example, and a racer gets disqualified for a foul in one race, he will probably blow any chance he has to win the regatta. For that reason, it's stupid to get aggressive and to take a chance on fouling out. Usually at the nationals, everyone is just trying to get a decent start, without getting mixed up in any ambiguous protest situations, and the starts are not as intimidating as you might expect. I don't recall any of the boats getting involved in any aggressive starting situations in any of the races last year, even though they all started at once. You don't win or lose on the basis of the start. You can overcome a bad start with a good performance the rest of the way around the course. You win or lose on the basis of your performance over the entire course.

Nobody will fault you for however you decide to start the race, but the national regatta is a good opportunity to accumulate some good information on boat performance and ratings, and we ought to do it if we can.

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 02/12/2004 : 23:43:42

Steve, You said, "but the national regatta is a good opportunity to accumulate some good information on boat performance and ratings, and we ought to do it [one start] if we can." I agree.

And I am sure that final decisions on starts, classes, etc. will wait until MUCH later until we see who shows up, who has a 'chute and wants to fly it, etc. The reason I think we may have a large fleet is that I have verbal "Count me in" reponses from all 12 boats in our local fleet, plus serious sounding "yesses" from at least a half dozen more, and probably a dozen more "I am interested....." Plus, we will continue to beat the bushes, invite people, send more publicity, etc.

Remember, too, that the Columbia River is about 1/2 mile wide at Portland, and that we have some current issues to deal with that can make the starts and mark roundings "interesting" to say the least. Ask Derek. We were futher downriver during the Six Pac, but we saw currents that I am sure exceeded 3 knots, and marks were laying over. Those factors make starts a bit intimidating without an overly crowded line. I am sure we will do the right thing at the time, depending upon conditons...I am as interested as anyone in racing my SK/SR head up against TRs and 250s. I might get stomped, but I want to see it!

Grins,

Gary B.
Vice Commodore

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2004 : 11:44:44

Indeed the current makes life interesting on the Columbia. The last day it was so strong that not one boat in the fleet hit the first mark layline correctly! We "overstood" by 60 - 70 yards and still finished up 50 yards below the mark!

Derek

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2004 : 20:31:20

River currents make for interesting sailing. At Ensign Nationals a couple of years ago, we rounded the last mark in 5 out 35, and started on what had become an off-wind lag to finish. Current was ebbing and was in the 3-4 range. When it dawned on us that the wind had quit (entirely -

), we were drifting past the end of the line, about 20 yards from the end. We anchored and we there until the rc ended the race. 28 boats didn't finish. Currents can be very interesting!

Edited by - osmepneo on 02/14/2004 07:20:14

JimB517
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 02/14/2004 : 12:09:34

Gary (89 tall rig C25 wing) and I (78 standard rig C25 fin) are both rigged for racing and about the same equipment. When he flys the 110 and I the 135 genoa we are very nearly the same speed and highly competitive. I suggest for the Nationals, if you are going to race TR, SR C25 against each other, you allow the C25 SR to fly up to a 155% genoa and limit the C25 TR to a 135%. It would be interesting to do some side by side tests with some C250s. Anyone want to come and rent one of ours? I usually blow by them BUT they are non experienced day sailors.

In other words, handicap the boats to all have the same maximum Sail Area / Displacement ratio and race heads up rather than getting into a PHRF scenario. It's much more fun to be the first to cross the finish line and be the winner than wait to see how everyone corrects out.

Edited by - JimB517 on 02/14/2004 12:11:04

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/14/2004 : 12:39:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimB517
 Gary (89 tall rig C25 wing) and I (78 standard rig C25 fin) are both rigged for racing and about the same equipment. When he flys the 110 and I the 135 genoa we are very nearly the same speed and highly competitive.

In other words, handicap the boats to all have the same maximum Sail Area / Displacement ratio and race heads up rather than getting into a PHRF scenario. It's much more fun to be the first to cross the finish line and be the winner than wait to see how everyone corrects out.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Statement one makes no sense. You should eat his lunch if he flys a 110 and you fly a 135.

(Damnit Jim, this is a sailboat not a tuna boat, ya half'ta pull in the lines!)

At our club the PHRF fleet does a staggered start where the handicap is applied to your start, I start 4 min 30 sec behind a C22. That way the first to finish wins. It is fun and brings everyone together at the finish.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 02/14/2004 : 14:13:44

Frank - do you use the same length course for every race? If you owe him 48 secs a mile (using Canyon Lake PHRF's - 222 to his 270) the course should be 5.625 miles long. Otherwise your time differential is wrong.
We use a staggered start only in our Moonlight Regatta which finishes around 11.30p.m. - midnight. This way the RC doesn't have to spend time working out corrected times, it's already been done. The only problem is if they have to shorten course (the race is 17 - 19 miles long) and then everything has to be refigured...

Derek

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/14/2004 : 14:46:51

As you know I had my boat in the water for a very short time last fall, the only race that was not cancelled due to high winds was the one where I was given that handicap, they gave it to me as I sailed by the committee boat to check in. Years ago we had permanent marks, now we set them. I am assuming that they use a GPS to place them where they need to be. It would be easy to have several courses in the data bank but I am not yet sure if that is what they do. One of my tasks for the coming year is to get back involved with the KBRS (Keel Boat Racing Squadron). In the mid 80's I was the club regatta chairman but that all seems a blur to me now and it would appear very little has stayed the same, so I consider myself as a racing newbie, albeit with the comfort level of an experienced racer.

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 02/15/2004 : 21:56:15

Jim, I think you misunderstood me somewhat. Since there are already permanent trophies for the National Champion for each class of: SR, TR and 250, it makes little sense to me to race them "against" each other, even IF there would be one start. The only question seems to be what to do with the 250s, in that the wing is quite a different beast than a WB. So far, I have heard from too few 250 owners who have expressed interest in attending. Therefore, at the present time, it only makes sense to race them all in the same fleet and see how it shakes out.

The other concern is that at least some of us with Standard rigs would LIKE to fly spinnakers, even if most are asymmetrical, while other folks don't have them, or don't want to use them. I am not positive what will happen here, but I would vote to AT LEAST have a NFS Champion, even if there is not a permanent trophy for that class. Of course, if, as some have said, a poled out 155 is as fast as a spinnaker, then a NFS boat might well beat the spinnaker boats for the permanent National Champion trophy.....There are just TOO DANG many design changes in the runs of Catalina 25 footers!

Gary B.
Vice Commodore

The other issue has to do with the

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 02/16/2004 : 08:57:35

While it is premature to stucture the actual racing, it is worthwhile to consider options at this time. The class allows spinnikers and it would be good for us to get in the habit of flying them, especially at nationals. So, if there are sufficient boats, why not have several classes? And, perhaps we will discover that a whisker poled 155 on out performs a spinnikered 25. that would be good knowledge to have.

Steve and charlotte Dube's boat, the one I sailing on is a wb 250, so all you others out there come on to Portland, and plan on having a great time. Let's see how the wb performs against the wing. that would be good knowledge to have to, and let's have a great educational time!

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5894 Posts

Response Posted - 02/16/2004 : 09:47:09

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">if, as some have said, a poled out 155 is as fast as a spinnaker, then a NFS boat might well beat the spinnaker boats for the permanent National Champion trophy<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Gary, a poled-out 155 is not as fast as a spinnaker boat in all conditions, but, depending on all the conditions, can beat a spinnaker boat. Probably the most important consideration is the length of the spinnaker run. If a spinnaker boat has a very long spinnaker run, then a non-spinnaker boat doesn't have a chance. If the downwind leg is short, then in order for a spinnaker boat to win, the crew has to raise, lower and trim the spinnaker flawlessly. Any lost time due to errors in handling the spinnaker will eat up any possible benefit from using it. In the 1983 nationals, the race committee set up a spinnaker run of about average length, and I could beat the spinnaker boats around the course. Some of the spinnaker boats were very well-sailed, and some were not, but on a short spinnaker run, they couldn't gain enough advantage to justify using the spinnaker. In the 1984 nationals, the race committee set up an extremely long spinnaker run, and, while I could beat them to the weather mark, the spinnaker boats blew by me on the downwind leg.

If you can set up a course that has a downwind leg of reasonable length, then I think you can allow the boats to choose whether they will fly spinnakers or not. If, however, your race course will only allow you to set up a course with a long downwind or broad-reaching leg, then it would be unfair to make non-spinnaker boats race against spinnaker boats without giving them a handicap adjustment. Your choices in that case would be to either establish a handicap for spinnaker boats, or to disallow spinnakers.

It would be unthinkable to disallow spinnakers in a fleet of J-24s, just because one J-24 owner doesn't have one. When the overwhelming number of competitors flies spinnakers, you can't set up the regatta to accommodate the one or two that do not. In a fleet of C-25s and C-250s, the overwhelming number of competitors do not fly spinnakers, and there is no obligation to allow the few who want to fly spinnakers to claim an unfair advantage for themselves. There's nothing unfair about disallowing spinnakers. Such a rule creates a level playing field for all, so that the national regatta is a test of skill, and not a cakewalk for the boat that has the most and best equipment.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 02/16/2004 : 11:06:38

Personally I'm in favor of NO spinnakers. I hate to see the non-spins put at a (supposed) disadvantage and I'd also not like to see the boats split into a non-spin and a spin fleet - it would definitely spoil the fun. (Besides, the NA doesn't have a non-spin and a spin trophy, just a C25-TR and C25-SR).
Derek
P.S. I'll be racing with Alice Patten on her C25TRFK "Tybreaker"

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 02/16/2004 : 13:50:49

Derek,

Good news. I'm glad you will be there and look forward to meeting a pro!

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 02/16/2004 : 13:51:44

What about it Milby?

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 02/16/2004 : 14:48:18

Hey Don - Gary B. has been holding out on me...what pro is coming? Not the other DC I hope

Derek

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5894 Posts

Response Posted - 02/16/2004 : 14:58:45

I'd love to go racing with you guys, but my son's college is trying its hardest to break me financially before he graduates next year, and I have to focus on that final-year push.

After next year my financial situation will be back to normal, and I might be able to make it to next year's regatta.

I doubt that I'll race my boat much this year. I'm looking forward to skippering a J-24 for a friend.

We raced about 3-4 races at the end of last year, and did very well. The owner is not a very experienced skipper, but he and his crew are really good at crewing a spinnaker boat. I don't know diddly about crewing a spinnaker boat, but am a pretty good skipper. In March, the owner and his crew will be taking an on-the-water racing course in Florida, improving their crewing skills. This weekend I'll be taking a 2 day North U. classroom course on racing tactics. Next summer there will be about 6 or 7 J-24s racing at Brookville Lake, and about 4 of them will be very competitive, so I'm expecting the racing to be very close. The Js will not only be racing in the BLSA club races, but they will have their own one-design races when BLSA is not racing, so we're all going to get our fill of racing. I hate to miss the Catalina party this year, but am really excited about the upcoming racing season.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 02/16/2004 : 16:51:45

Steve - I'm sorry that you won't make it this year and I'll miss meeting you - both on & off the water!

Derek

Edited by - on

Page: of 2

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.