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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Leaking....

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Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/28/2003 : 14:48:11

Yep, it's me again. Call me a whiner, but I got tired of finding water under the aft cushions (yes, inside) and around the battery box so I launched a congressional investigation.
I guess it came from my old distrust of skylights, but I immediately suspected the cubbyholes in the cockpit. So I stuck a hose in there and...bingo.....the port one caused a stream to come over the edge of what is part of the cockpit floor, right above the battery box.. I removed the somewhat soggy aft "bulkhead" and contorted my way in there to find that I could see daylight coming through the joint between the cubbyhole and the back of the combing. It seems to be a separate "box" which is glassed on, probably after the deck comes out of the mold, and before it is joined with the hull, with epoxy reinforced glass tape which in this case was clearly not saturated with epoxy......leaking like a sieve. Plain poor workmanship. Like somebody went on break and never came back to finish the job. The folks after him/her who turned over the deck and mounted it in the hull didn't see it either. And, this is the worst part, no one stuck a hose in there before the boat left the factory to see if everything was up to par.......A complete failure of quality control.
I'm ittching like hell from all the glass, and I just left a very frustrated message on David Grass' voice mail....why is there never anyone to talk to there?......This is why I paid good money for a new boat?

<img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle>

Oscar
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/LKforumshot.jpg" border=0>
Lady Kay 250 WB #618
In the driveway in Behtlehem, PA trying to dry out......

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2003 : 20:40:47

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>This is why I paid good money for a new boat?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

You are mad <img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle> because you have one leak, but as a C25 owner, I'm happy <img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle> when the number of leaks is under a half dozen.

Question: If the water leaks fill the boat halfway, is the boat half empty or half full?

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d904b3127cce9f7cd9ffdf1d0000003010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2003 : 21:53:29

If I would have bought a 25 for under 10K I would have agreed with you.
I've never had a problem with the half full/half empty scenario, and it's got nothing to do with psychobabble, but everything to do with direction........If the boat is going down it's half full. If, on the other hand we can still see you foaming at the mouth, working the five gallon bucket like the proverbial maniak, and the topsides seem to be getting bigger, I'd say it's half empty. <img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle>

Now, for the important stuff. My poison e-mail (the first post of this thread verbatim) to Catalina had results. The big guy (Frank Butler) called within the hour.
Tomorrow I will receive an e-mail detailing the local dealer where I am to take the boat to have my gripes looked at. The Leak and the List being the most important

I did discover one important detail during the "inquiry", Anything that leaks in the cockpit, stanchions, in this case cubbyholes or what have you, dribbles onto the ceiling over the aft berth, then aft to the area behind the aft bulkhead, and forms a puddle next to the battery. When this puddle gets big enough, it spills over the "sill" that is at the end of the aft berth floor, where it joins the hull. This lip supports the bulkhead. When the water spills over, the plywood bulkhead and the berth get soaked.

I carefully drilled two 3/8" holes, both sides of the battery, parallel to the hull through the sill. (From the stern aiming forward.) Theres only one very thin layer of fiberglass. Now the puddle drains to the bilge, where the inlet hose to the pump is. Although it doesn't solve this, or any future leak, it does keep the berth from getting wet, and delivers the water where it does the least damage and can easily be removed, in the bilge.

After discussion with him I am submitting this "mod" to Frank Butler.

<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/Forumshots/puddlearea.jpg" border=0>

I know some of you are following the trials and tribulations of Lady Kay, I will post after visiting the dealer.

Oscar
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/LKforumshot.jpg" border=0>
Lady Kay 250 WB #618
In the driveway in Behtlehem, PA ready to go anytime.

Edited by - Oscar on 05/28/2003 22:29:04

Edited by - on

Sailor Vic
1st Mate

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56 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2003 : 23:09:48

Yup, had a similar problem with my new 2002 250wk #660.

My starboard coaming (storage pocket in the open cockpit area) in the stern area leaked.

What was I told to do by Frank Butler?

Take it back to the dealer!

Great...only 4 1/2 hour drive (9 hours round trip).

NOT!

So a two day trip twice and that is assuming I have a trailer and a towing vehicle.

No trailer, no time, or no tow vehicle means no warranty I guess!

I find that TOTALLY not acceptable.

I was willing to wait a month to have someone come by on the way to other fixes!

Having mold on my NEW mattress is not what I had in mind when I purchased my new 250.

I also ass-u-med that my warranty included getting my boat fixed at the marina.

It's not like I am in Alaska.

My boat is in the same state as the factory! California!

What have I done so far?

Used lots of adhesive, etc etc. and whined to MANY people about their warranty policy!

Catalina needs to deal with a warranty problem by going out and fixing it!

Yes, Frank sounds nice and totally experienced, etc. but his warranty policy isn't acceptable to me.

I know I'll never buy another NEW Catalina (am in the market right now for a larger boat to keep in the San Francisco Bay and I'll keep my 250wk at Lake Oroville but I won't consider a NEW Catalina because of their warranty policy).

Vic

http://www.plumbingsupply.com/vic-sailing.html

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2003 : 23:18:54

Vic,

Read again how you can keep the water out of the cushions, and, I see you're a plumbing supply...I used plumbers putty to create a temporary seal. (from the outside, don't block the drain holes.) It works.

Oscar
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/LKforumshot.jpg" border=0>
Lady Kay 250 WB #618
In the driveway in Behtlehem, PA ready to go anytime.

Edited by - Oscar on 05/28/2003 23:19:33

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Al
Captain

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USA
269 Posts

Response Posted - 05/29/2003 : 12:08:43

Add me to the list of new owners with cubbyhole leaks. My leaker is on the port side (but maybe just because the wind was blowing that way...). I showed it to my dealer (nice having a dealer who runs the slip where your boat is) and he offered to seal it. I decided to just do it (both sides) myself, and know it was done right.

Al Maniccia
SeaWolf C250WK #698
Marina Del Rey, CA

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 05/29/2003 : 12:29:44

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

Question: If the water leaks fill the boat halfway, is the boat half empty or half full?

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Don, that all depends on the depth of the water and whether my mast is stepped or not. Over 40 feet of water - grab the life jacket and the dog dear....

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/dreamimages/Flags/measurer.jpg" border=0>

Edited by - on

frankr
Captain

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256 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2003 : 19:07:02

Must be a new factory option - I have hull # 690 and just discover the cubbyhole leak on the starboard side. It just took rain coming from the right direction to find it. I also did the disassembly of aft bulkhead (partition) and contorsionist moves to find it. I can nearly see daylight thru the sieve joint. The secondary problem is no drain hole there so it soaks the cushions. I measured from the aft inspection hole and it seems that it isn't any cavity under the battery box area. so drilling one seemed out of the question. Also when when they drilled the cubbly drain holes - one nicked the bottom of the cubby enough to create another hole. I used 3M 4200 to try to seal it. It slowed it down but it still leaks. I think I will mix some epoxy and cabosil together and pour it in - it should follow the leak path and eventually plug it up.

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2003 : 22:25:12

Indeed don't drill down next to the battery box...Thats the hull!!!The leaking cubbyhole would be the least of your problems.

<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>

Just forward of the battery box is a "sill". Drill parallel to the hull where the sill meets the hull, it's less than an eigth of an inch of material and then its a straight run to the low point under the little sqaure hatch at the front af the aft berth. If you drop a light into that square hole and stick your head in and look aft you'll see what I mean. You'll also notice a whole lot of crap.....dust, cutoffs even a dustmask <img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle>.....all kinds of stuff to clog up your bilge pump, and of course it would dislodge when the waterlevel down there is rising above accepatable levels...(the early part of sinking) so, I spent a half hour squirting around down there with a garden hose and wiping/pumping cleaning out the crud. Gives me a better chance of survival.....

<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/Forumshots/puddletwo.jpg" border=0>

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake:
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/Forumshots/chesapeake.jpg" border=0>

Edited by - Oscar on 06/01/2003 22:28:46

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2003 : 23:53:19

Oscar, your suggestion is a great one... On the wheel steered models, there is a slight amount of water that gets by the rubber boot...this will solve that problem as well as that of the leaky coaming boxes.

Your tech tip should go into the tech section...

Jim outlined earlier that he would like worthy tech tips brought to his attention. I'm not sure he monitors this forum so you might catch his attention and write it up for publication to the tech section including the drawing.

I was about to say... if your hesitant... I will... but better thought concludes your not shy about presenting your ideas.

Thanks....

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

frankr
Captain

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256 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2003 : 11:27:30

Oscar - there actually is a small hole drilled in that location - (factory after thought?) however there is a cross member beam just in front of that lip. The hole dead ends against something substantial. I took a tape measure, mirror, light and measured back as far as the tape would go from the inspection hole at the front of the rear berth. My boat runs outs of gap about 4 inches in front of that cross beam. I can't even see any part of the cross beam when looking back through the inspection hole. Tapping on the rear of the compartment also seems to verify that there is no space under there.

Edited by - on

jkountz
1st Mate

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USA
48 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2003 : 12:44:53

Based upon what frankr reports, it would appear that Oscar's suggested improvement would not achieve the desired results in all cases. I wonder if this might be due to a difference between the WB and WK boats.

Oscar has a WB, what do you have Frank?

John Kountz
Foolish Treasure C250WK #668

Edited by - jkountz on 06/02/2003 12:51:39

Edited by - on

jkountz
1st Mate

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USA
48 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2003 : 13:57:49

I've confirmed that Frank and Oscar have different hull types, Oscar has a WB and Frank has WK #690. So it's possible that either the newer models changed something or the WK is slightly different.

Next weekend I will check my WK and report back.

John Kountz
Foolish Treasure WK #668

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2003 : 16:20:57

I would not be surprised if the WK has more structure to distribute the stress from the metal blob....the water blob spreads it's load out over a substantial larger hull area and and would thus requires less reinforcement of the hull.

Arlyn I'll be more than happy to submit the tip to the techtip section. I checked the page, but the instructions don't say where to send it......all I found was webmistress's snailmail address to send kodaks.......point me in the right direction.....

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake:
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/Forumshots/chesapeake.jpg" border=0>

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2003 : 17:03:37

Oscar, your likely right in your analysis of the structures. The ballast tank does not extend aft beyond the forward edge of the aft berth. The area under the birth being all bilge.

Those of us who have added a seacock... have done so directly under the bilge access hatch. Opening and closing the seacock is fairly friendly there even on the water ballast version with the center board tackle.

As far as tech submissions... if recalling correctly, clicking Karen in the officers section took me directly to my mail client with her email address correct... she received my mail ok so think its good.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

Tray
Navigator

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Namibia
224 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2003 : 22:54:50

I have another leak problem besides the coamings and companion way hatch. I just launched last weekend after a haul out. While filling the water ballast tank, I found a lot of water leaking past the valve stem under the bottom step and into my bilge. My 3M 5200 fix has apparently worn out, and reading Oscar's troubles after this experience has got me pretty pissed off. Why should we have to put up with crap like this in a new boat? The next owner of my boat will not have to because I have fixed nearly all that has gone wrong myself, but he/she will not have paid the new boat price. Isn't part of the expense of a new boat supposed to buy peace of mind?

For a long time I thought I got stuck with a lemon due to all the little problems I had after first buying my boat, but it seems I am not alone. Something has happened with QA at Catalina in the last couple of years. I am lucky to live so close to my dealer. If I didn't, I can see how difficult it might be to get my boat back to him. I have never had to return my boat. My dealer sends a tech rep to me. It's only a 45 minute drive, but a really long boat ride, and Catalina has responded positively to most of my concerns, either directly or through my dealer, but my laundry list is ridiculously long. In my first 6 months I personally replaced both water pumps due to leaks, the forward hatch seal due to leaks, the opening head window due to leaks, and resealed a faulty valve stem installation due to a ballast leak. Catalina or my dealer supplied all parts required, but what about my trouble/labor? I have also found that without the canvas cover over the companion way, rain water will leak into the salon.

Catalina's reputation is in danger as far as I'm concerned. Maybe their focus is more towards their big boat customers. I'm pretty sure that people who buy big boats probably owned small boats first. Based on my experience so far, I would not move up to a bigger Catalina. I have handed my boat over to my local Hunter dealer for brokerage. I'm ready for a bigger boat, and I'm not shopping for another Catalina. Like Doug, however, I plan to remain active on this forum no matter what I buy next. I've learned more here than anywhere else.

Tray
C-250WB #554
"Weeny Bean"
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3da37b3127cce963eb621ece90000001010" border=0>

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2003 : 23:32:53

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I have handed my boat over to my local Hunter dealer for brokerage. I'm ready for a bigger boat,...<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Regarding the bigger boat, do you have anything in mind?

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d904b3127cce9f7cd9ffdf1d0000003010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2003 : 10:01:12

Hunter.....HUNTER????? Are they any better? Is there anything any better out there? Ironically, when I did the Lady Kay's shakedown in FLA, concurrently with a family vacation...duh...the shoulder to cry on regarding al the little QC items was the dock master. In a previous life he was with Bertram. Very expensive belch fires. He told me some of the stories about the problems they had. How about shelling out a million plus and then have it leak on your head at night......I'd go beserk.

Three out of five new cars I've bought over the last eight years resulted in lengthy knock down drag out battles with the manufacturers.

In addition to Catalina, several of the electronics manufactureres whos product I've bought, my ISP, heck, even my mortgage companies loan servicing department have an answering machine and ask you to leave a message. Sometimes they call back....

There is a trend here, gentlemen, and that is that there is a perception in the business world that it is cheaper to swallow an x% collateral damage in the form of product failure, than to make sure everything is perfect before it leaves the factory, and then in the unlikely event that something goes wrong to fix it right away.

I work in the airline industry. About ten years ago we got our butts chewed by the traveling public for delivering a lousy product. We listened, and got busy. Today our product is vastly improved. My airline, Continental, had a 99.9% completion factor in May, and had no cancellations for 13 days out of the 31.

So, to end this rant. We, the consumer, can only effect change by bitching like hell, and/or voting with our feet. ($$$) Then they will listen. Right now they don't seem to care too much. So, we'll just complain and get out the caulk guns and the rubber gaskets and grommets and do it our selves and feel pity for the guy with two left hands.

I think I will build my next boat.....then I know it will be done right, or at least have no one to blame but myself...."what's that honey?.....as a bachelor?????"

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake:
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/Forumshots/chesapeake.jpg" border=0>

Edited by - Oscar on 06/04/2003 10:41:28

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2003 : 10:32:01

Also,

Frank and John,

I've taken another hard look at the sill in the back of Lady Kay, see more acurate cutaway diagram. The "structural member" you refer to is indeed there, but does not touch the hull. It is an engineered formed profile, integral to the berth floor, and only the very aft edge, the one to drill in, contacts the hull. Take an awl and do some poking through the hole you have, maybe there's just some glass in the way. Also, put a bright light in the battery area, close the hatch in the bulkhead and then stick your head in the hatch at the front of the berth to look for light......

Then again, you might be right, the WK could be different.

<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/Forumshots/puddlethree.jpg" border=0>

Oscar
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/LKforumshot.jpg" border=0>
Lady Kay 250 WB #618
In the driveway in Behtlehem, PA ready to go anytime.

Edited by - Oscar on 06/04/2003 10:36:31

Edited by - on

Tray
Navigator

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Namibia
224 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2003 : 22:03:32

I'm sure Hunter is no better. I'm not looking to buy a Hunter, I just wanted to busiest brokerage around hoping for a quick sale.

I'm completely wide open as to our next boat. Size from 27-30 feet for less than 25K are my only guidlines so far. Any suggestions, Don?

Tray
C-250WB #554
"Weeny Bean"
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3da37b3127cce963eb621ece90000001010" border=0>

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2003 : 00:58:26

What kind of sailing do you want to do? Coastal/Tahiti.....ie full keel vs light air boat....etc..

Oscar
(in the studio www.wdiy.org.....no picture)

Edited by - on

Tray
Navigator

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Namibia
224 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2003 : 10:28:01

We're moving to California next year, and coastal/offshore sailing looks to be in the picture. The wife wants something sturdy that will handle chop, and have standing headroom, and a tiller. I want something a little faster with a diesel and a wheel.

I recently checked into shipping a boat from Florida to California, and due to the cost (5-6K) I may wait until we get there to buy another boat. Who knows...if I don't get the price I want for my boat, I may be trailering it out there. We'll see.

Tray
C-250WB #554
"Weeny Bean"
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3da37b3127cce963eb621ece90000001010" border=0>

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2003 : 21:18:50

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>standing headroom <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Careful....you might ruin your posture......your chiroparactor won't be happy too says Lady K. <img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

All kidding aside, there's a lot of boats in the 20-25K range that fill your needs. Late 70's early 80's C&C/Cape Dory...the list goes on...

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake:
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/Forumshots/chesapeake.jpg" border=0>

Edited by - on

frankr
Captain

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256 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2003 : 22:28:03

Response from Catalina about the leaking coaming cockpit compartments.http://members.gcnet.net/swampman/images/repair.jpg . Basically it's tape and pour in epoxy - let it dry - test and repeat as needed.

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 06/12/2003 : 00:17:44

Good tip, thanks. Pretty much figured that's how I was going to do it. Did not think of the tape. Also looking for advice on how to thin down the epoxy.

An interesting detail.....did you notice the date? They've been using this design and having problems with it since 1981...!!!!!!!

Oscar
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/LKforumshot.jpg" border=0>
Lady Kay 250 WB #618
In the driveway in Behtlehem, PA ready to go anytime.

Edited by - Oscar on 06/12/2003 00:20:56

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The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.