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Flirting with the Admiralty

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TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/10/2015 : 21:35:51

Ever since I got my C250 in 2010, I have told people that my next boat will be a C320. Over the years we have looked at other Catalina models and other brands of production cruisers, and all it did was to reaffirm our preference for the C320 as our next boat.

Recently a C320 came on the market that is in just amazing condition, and it is equipped exactly the way I want it. I am sooooo tempted. But every time I visit TakeFive, I am reminded how easy she is to sail, how comfortable she is to spend time down below, and how easy the maintenance is (especially over the last few years since I made all the modifications that I want).

So far there hasn't been anything that we want to do that can't be accommodated by the C250. This was reinforced this past season. I have a friend who owns a Mason 44 near Annapolis. She has moved to Maine and spends the summer up there. She invited me to use her boat all summer. We took a few sort cruises, but could only manage to get away for one or two nights at a time. Everything we did on that boat could have been done on our C250. We're limited by lack of time, not lack of space. And it reinforced our belief that bigger is not always better. 44' is a lot of boat for two people to handle - and we didn't even have to do any maintenance. (That was handled by the owners.)

So for now, the C250 continues to be the perfect boat for us. That C320 is tempting, and I might actually pull the trigger on buying it if it's still around by February or so. But my pragmatic side tells me that the C250 continues to be an amazingly fun boat that meets all our needs until we're ready to go out for more than a week at a time. That day may still be a few years away.

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5895 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2015 : 07:30:18

Take your time. There's no reason to make your choices prematurely. Explore the alternatives. A really good way to do that is to crew on lots of different race boats. This summer, I crewed on a 45', 20,000 lb boat that would be much easier to singlehand than my 35', 13,000 lb boat. If I had known a big boat could be so easy to sail shorthanded, I'd have bought a bigger boat.

The boat is a late 1980's vintage Jeanneau 45 with a roller furling jib and in-mast furling mainsail. The biggest complaint about in-mast furling is that you can't get good mainsail shape because battens in the mainsail can't be rolled up into the mast. Therefore, your mainsail can't have battens.

This boat, however, has inflatable battens, and they work very well to shape the mainsail. When you want to furl or reef the mainsail, you simply deflate the battens.

When you sail most big cruising boats, you have to remove a big mainsail cover, fold it and stow it, remove the sail ties, attach the main halyard and raise the very heavy mainsail up the mast. When you stop sailing, you have to roll up the jib, lower and flake the big, heavy mainsail, attach sail ties, remove the main halyard and cover the mainsail. That's a lot of work, even if you have crew.

By comparison, with in-mast furling and inflatable battens, all you have to do is roll out the mainsail, inflate the battens with a bicycle pump (or a small electric pump if you prefer), roll out the jib, and you're under way. To stop sailing, you just roll up the jib, deflate the mainsail battens and roll up the mainsail, and that's it.

We race this boat, and it is very competitive with boats that are flying deck-sweeping racing jibs that have to be folded and bagged after every race. While the others are folding and bagging big, heavy sails, we're motoring back to the marina and relaxing with a cold beverage. Nothing could be easier.

I know that another fear that is often raised about in-mast furling is that it could get fouled, and you wouldn't be able to furl it in foul weather. Having used it, I don't see that as a significant concern.

Some see in-boom furling as an acceptable alternative, but that will require that you raise the whole weight of that big sail up the mast every time you want to sail. With in-mast furling, the sail stays up all the time. You unfurl it by pulling the outhaul, and, as it starts to unroll, the wind catches it, and pulls it out the rest of the way.

My suggestion is, get experience with different systems and make your own judgment about them. Don't be overly influenced by online people who don't like the general idea of the system, but who haven't had hands-on experience with it.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Edited by - Steve Milby on 10/11/2015 07:35:13

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2015 : 09:24:56

Steve, another variation for in-mast furling that seems to support some roach is vertical battens--have you seen those? I suspect they''re not optimal for shaping, but better than a fluttering leech with no roach.

Rick: While it's been out of production for a while, Catalina once had a nice, contemporary cruiser between the C250 and the C3xx--the C-28. It has a nice open layout (you would recognize it) and true standing headroom below, but is not nearly as big to handle--sails, docking, etc. My wife and I were thinking about it as a step from our C-25 (after we relocated, which didn't happen.) I sorta think of the C250 as an overnight or weekend boat, the C3xx as a summer-aboard boat, and the C-28 as a week-or-two boat that can still double as an easy day-sailer. The 320 is about a third heavier with about 40% bigger sails. Just a thought... (Nothing against "big" boats--our thinking was just that the bigger the boat, the less it feels like real sailing.)

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5895 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2015 : 09:56:53

I haven't seen a boat with vertical battens, but the inflatable ones work so well that it's hard for me to imagine that anything other than standard rigid battens would work better. As the battens inflate, you can see them smooth the wrinkles out of the sail.

The reason why I really like big boats is that they have a way of smoothing out rough water. Even a 35 footer, like my C&C, gets knocked around by heavy chop on the bay, but a 40 footer or more, with a longer waterline and wider beam, rides over the chop, and doesn't heel or roll as much. Big boats give a much more comfortable ride, not to mention the fact that there are much more spacious accommodations down below. If I'd known that it could be so easy to singlehand a 45' boat, I'd have bought something like that big Jenneau.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2015 : 10:59:01

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Milby

...If I'd known that it could be so easy to singlehand a 45' boat, I'd have bought something like that big Jenneau.

"It's never too late," "You can't take it with you,"... etc., etc.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2015 : 19:26:09

I have no objections to furling main, and one of the boats that I've been considering has it. I do believe that it would allow me to continue sailing later into my life, when I might want to have some of those conveniences. Many of the boats that I'm looking at may be due for a new mainsail at some point, so inflatable battens might be something to consider then.

I really can't imagine a 40 footer. All the costs go up exponentially. I realize that there are benefits to it, but just don't see going there, especially after sailing a 44 footer this summer and chartering some boats in that size range.

The C28 is a beautiful design, especially the Mark II version. It was my choice before I made a last-minute change to the C250. And it does fill a nice gap between the C250 and the C320. I'll have to keep that one in mind, but I really see a step-change coming where we will do much less daysailing and more long weekends and week-long cruises. This would correspond with moving our home port from the Delaware River (12 minutes from home) to the Upper Chesapeake (1-2 hours away). I think the C320 would provide more comfort as a "floating condo" further away from home.

Also, in general, the C320 was a more successful production run than the C28, so there are more boats to pick from at any given time. Also, I want to get a boat that's already outfitted with bimini/dodger/connector panel, and most of the C320s after 1999 seem to come out of the factory that way, with a very nice setup. Many of the C28s lack that canvas work, and although I could add it myself, it's much more economical buying a boat that already has it.

As I said, I'm planning to stick with my current boat for awhile. I start a new job in a week, so Take Five is getting hauled out tomorrow so I can focus 100% on work related activities.

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1913 Posts

Response Posted - 10/13/2015 : 16:26:38

Another option to in the mast furler is a behind the mast furler. There are no battens and has great sail shape. My set up came on the boat when I bought it. Its great, I have not had one issue with it. Single hand sailing is a breeze (pun intended). I have won some races with it, I don't think it slows you down like some say. Flip the clutch pull a line and your done. Never have to go forward, no covers, no flaking.

So not to completely hijack your tread - There's no time to buy as when the deal presents itself - you cant buy it when its sold.

1997 250 TR WK (sold)
1984 O'Day 28 (sold)
1979 SISU 22
Bath, NC.

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 10/13/2015 : 17:27:11

quote:
Originally posted by Tom Potter

Another option to in the mast furler is a behind the mast furler... I have won some races with it, I don't think it slows you down like some say...

Tom: what is the area of your furling main, and how does that compare to stock? I'm guessing it's around 20% smaller, with a lot less area aloft due to no roach. I don't doubt it makes your boat sail nicely, but I don't see how you don't give something up to your rating in a competitive race. That said, since I didn't race my C-25 (and often sailed on roller genny alone for convenience), I once gave BTM furling some thought!

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 10/13/2015 17:29:18

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5895 Posts

Response Posted - 10/13/2015 : 18:19:47

For cruising, I'm sure the furler makes your boat a pleasure to sail. For racing, I don't think it usually costs you much in boatspeed or pointing, and whatever it costs, you make up for in racing skill.

My C25 was a tall rig, and it surprised me how much the extra mast height, with the extra weight aloft and small extra sail area cost me when the wind piped up. In a breeze, I had to reef sooner than standard rigs, and standard rig boats were faster than my tall rig in strong winds. I expect that furling hardware will have a similar effect on your boat. Nevertheless, it sounds like a nice system that works well.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4303 Posts

Response Posted - 10/13/2015 : 19:33:37

Teaser - http://sailingtexas.com/201501/scatalina28112.html

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GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1314 Posts

Response Posted - 10/14/2015 : 09:17:33

Wow... would suit us just fine.

Only thing missing is a nice double (triple?) axle, hot-dipped galvanized trailer

Henk & Johanna
"Floating", a few off your "barnacles".
"Someday Lady" '95 C250WB #151 ('03 - 2016)
"Sea ya" 30ft Bayliner (04-2018 - 09-2018)
"Mariah" '96 C250WB #191 (05-2019 - 15-05-2023)
"Lady J" '00 C250WK #499 (05-2021 - 09-2022)

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4303 Posts

Response Posted - 10/14/2015 : 17:08:40

One of my co-workers bought one about 8 months ago. I've been invited to go out several times but something's always come up.

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 10/14/2015 : 20:55:24

quote:
Originally posted by zeil

Wow... would suit us just fine. Only thing missing is a nice double (triple?) axle, hot-dipped galvanized trailer

...and a Freightliner or Peterbilt to pull it...

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

ruachwrights
Captain

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USA
258 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2015 : 08:06:37

Rick,
I have been tempted many times. Eventually I think my wife and I will get a bigger boat (if we are lucky enough) but only to do something really fantastic like sail to Bermuda or spend a season in the Caribbean.

When I had sailed up to Camden ME this summer in the company of million dollar Moriss', Hinkley's and exotica that is difficult to truly fathom, a dock hand said something that got my attention. After self disparaging my boat, a dock hand said "You know I think I'd prefer your boat to all of these here. I look at your sloop and I see freedom.

Vern Wright
Hajime

97 Catalina 250 TR/ WK
Hull #301
Attleboro, MA

Ape-X
Admiral

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USA
662 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2015 : 10:57:14

A friend just moved up to a 28 from a 27. Completely different boats, but I think most manufacturers follow the same formula for their 28ft offerings: a small cruising boat, with wide beam, built for comfort. His concern is single-handing still, while the mass of the boat is less tender, and handles heavier weather more comfortably. I would agree, and have come to the conclusion a 28 really fits the niche well of providing room, and still the freedom. Costs are still reasonable as well.

They are certainly NOT a trailer sailor though.

s/v No Worries, O'Day 28
PO Moe'Uhane - C25 SR/FK #1746

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2015 : 11:27:49

Just my opinion, but once you have inboard diesel, refrigeration, A/C system, pressure water, larger battery bank, the difference between a 28' boat and a 32' boat is pretty minimal.

In fact, on the smaller boat things may be worse, because all those systems on the smaller boat will be crammed into tighter spaces making working on them more difficult.

Davy J

2005 Gemini 105Mc
PO 1987 C25 #5509 SR/SK
Tampa Bay

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5895 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2015 : 12:26:22

When you move up to a bigger boat, you eventually have to stop trailering it and find a slip or mooring for it. In some ways that increases your expense, but there are trade-offs. You no longer need to own, maintain, license and insure a tow vehicle. The capital invested in that vehicle, and it's attendant costs, can pay for several years of slip fees. I didn't feel a need to move up in size until I retired, but when I finally did so, it wasn't nearly the expense that I anticipated. Since I don't have to run the air conditioner, water heater, and other utilities in my home all summer, those savings pay for a significant part of the cost of owning my boat. If you're weighing the pros and cons of up-sizing, don't just consider the added costs. Think also about those trade-offs.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4018 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2015 : 13:13:30

Not only do you get rid of the tow vehicle and associated expenses that come with it, Having the boat in the water is sooooo much more convenient. You can run down and go for a 2hr sail or just hang out on the boat. With trailing its has to be a planed time and usually an all day event or its not worth the effort. This of course depends on if you live near the water or not.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4303 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2015 : 16:53:20

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Milby

When you move up to a bigger boat, you eventually have to stop trailering it and find a slip or mooring for it. In some ways that increases your expense, but there are trade-offs. You no longer need to own, maintain, license and insure a tow vehicle. The capital invested in that vehicle, and it's attendant costs, can pay for several years of slip fees. I didn't feel a need to move up in size until I retired, but when I finally did so, it wasn't nearly the expense that I anticipated. Since I don't have to run the air conditioner, water heater, and other utilities in my home all summer, those savings pay for a significant part of the cost of owning my boat. If you're weighing the pros and cons of up-sizing, don't just consider the added costs. Think also about those trade-offs.

And it's way cheaper than a water-front home that cannot move when you get tired of the view!

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2015 : 18:21:58

FWIW, I do not trailer my C250. I do not consider the WK version to be a trailerable boat, though I know some do it. I keep her in a slip (only $1000/year) and LOVE being able to drive 12 minutes to the marina, hop on, and be sailing in less that 30 minutes from leaving home.

For winter storage, we haul out like the big boats. At my DIY boat club it costs $12/foot ($300 total) for haulout, storage, and spring launch. Only additional cost was the one-time purchase of boat stands ($600 for five new ones), and in my sixth season now, they've paid for themselves. I keep them in my shed over the summer.

No regrets on lacking a trailer. I'd have to pay to store it. The lack of trailer might make it a little harder to sell, but I'll try to convince people that trailering is a good way to ruin the fun (especially with the C250WK version). Plus, I'll probably offer to deliver anywhere on the Chesapeake down as far as Solomon's.

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

DavidCrosby
Navigator

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USA
236 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2015 : 20:16:57

I just have to chime in on this one.

I consider the 250WK to be a very trailerable boat. I bought mine in Washington DC and trailered it back to St. Louis, MO.

I keep it at a "dry sail" sailing club on a parking lot, on it's trailer ($450 year). The boat is all setup and ready to go. I can be sailing within 30 minutes of arrival.

This year, the wife and I trailered it to Kentucky Lake for a week of sailing and then later in the year trailered it to Michigan to sail on Grand Traverse Bay for a week. Next year we have plans for taking it to Door County, Wisconsin.

In three weeks, our club will close for the season. I will then trailer it to my father's house and store it there for the winter ($0).

I had a Morgan 30 for several years. I was itching to take it somewhere. I was trapped at the marina I bought the boat at ($2,300 per year when I bought the boat. $3,000 per year when I decided I had to get it out of there). I finally paid big bucks to have it moved to the Mississippi River and a cheaper marina ($1,050 per year). Paid big bucks to drop the mast. Paid big bucks to pull it from the water and put on a truck. Paid more big bucks to launch it and even more big bucks to step the mast.

I'll stick with the C250.

David Crosby "Small World"
'02 C250 WK #614

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