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Downsizing from a C-25

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dblitz
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240 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/03/2014 : 15:45:52

Looks like the time may have come to sell my boat for something a little smaller.
The way it goes, I only used the boat twice this season, not at all last season and it seems silly to be painting, fixing, changing oil, moving the cradle, etc., etc.
I'm interested in what you might think would be appropriate for use in the Hudson that could be drysailed.
I'm 60, am I too old for a centerboard daysailer?
Basically, I'm looking for something that I can hoist into the water,
take out for an hour, have a sandwich and come back in.
Your suggestions are appreciated.

Edited by - on

sdpinaz
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Response Posted - 11/03/2014 : 16:36:45

how about a smaller catalina? You already know how a catalina is made and how it works. Or how about a smaller keel boat like a Cape Dory Typhoon- 2000 lbs, single axle trailer, small outboard engine, large cockpit, and stable enough to just lounge around in, yet large enough to have a functioning head and to also store a cooler for lunch....

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sdpinaz
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Response Posted - 11/03/2014 : 16:43:02

I would say a Haven 12 1/2 would be ideal also, but they are so darn expensive!

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 11/03/2014 : 20:05:59

What do you mean by "hoist"? Will it be in a boatyard or yacht club with a crane, or on a trailer, or...? Where on the Hudson? (Some areas have a lot more chop than others.)

We had a 17' O'Day Daysailer for 20 years on Long Island Sound--Cape Cod Shipbuilding makes them now. You're not too old for one, although the seats are a little low for some of us creaky, really old farts. And there's no ballast except you.

I'd love a little Herreshoff 12-1/2 (the LWL) from Cape Cod, Haven, and maybe someone else, but they are pretty dear. The classy little Typhoon is stable, with a heavily ballasted full keel, but the relatively small cockpit is made smaller by the rudder post and tiller inside the cockpit. I suppose it could take a porta-potti, but I think you'd have to use it on your knees. Most of them are pretty old--the last being built in 1986. But they have lovely Carl Alberg lines!

The Catalina/Capri 18 (brand depending on year) is a nice little package. The ballasted wing keel gives some stiffness for the Hudson, and the cabin gives ample storage and "camping" accommodations if you ever want. The cabin trunk also helps keep green water out of the cockpit if it comes over the bow. Precision had a similar model.

Then there are the catboats... Menger, Herreshoff America, or the more contemporary Com-Pacs. One sail, broad beam, roomy cockpit, shallow draft,...

Tell us more about your thinking.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 11/03/2014 20:08:01

dblitz
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Response Posted - 11/03/2014 : 20:25:13

I sail on the Hudson around the Tappan Zee. The idea is to drysail the boat on a trailer and use the Club's hoist to put it in the water. I want to avoid having the boat on a mooring where you can break loose, drag or have something crash into you. You also avoid having to maintain mooring tackle and finding it on the bottom (we have to drag for our tackle) in the Spring.
A boat with a centerboard would let me put it into the water without having to worry about whether it's high or low tide. On the other hand I want something with some stability.
I am trying to decide whether I want an Oday daysailer 1 or maybe you can recommend something else. I understood that Odays are relatively stable and there are many, many people that have had one for 20 years like David above.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 11/04/2014 : 07:01:51

I liked our DS/2 better than the DS/1--the cockpit liner made her self-bailing, which is useful even on a trailer. Also, I could sit on the coamings. The DS-1 is now for O/D racers.

How much water is under that hoist? The Catalina 18's draft is listed at 2'4", and the Typhoon is 2'7". The Catalina carries 425 lbs. in the wing keel, with over a foot more beam than the DS, and the Typhoon has 900 lbs. in the full keel. The Daysailer has zero lbs. and typically (at least ours) no reefing capability. While I sailed ours in probably 20 knots and 3' seas a couple of times, it was harrowing, and I was a lot younger! I used a lot of twist in the main, kept the mainsheet in hand, and hiked out up on the coaming with feet on the centerboard trunk. Stability is a very relative term, and a dinghy like that absolutely will capsize and not come back up. But it was fun, and comfortable ("stable") in up to 12 knots or so.

If the mast is left up, I'd probably put a roller furler on either the Catalina or the Ty, for the ease and convenience you allude to. I rigged a dousing line on the DS jib so I wouldn't have to crawl forward in big chop--that boat starts feeling really small when you do that.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 11/04/2014 07:14:17

islander
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Response Posted - 11/04/2014 : 13:12:23

Potter 19 would be somthing to consider too.

Edited by - on

hinmo
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Response Posted - 11/04/2014 : 13:56:43

quote:
Originally posted by dblitz

Looks like the time may have come to sell my boat for something a little smaller.
The way it goes, I only used the boat twice this season, not at all last season and it seems silly to be painting, fixing, changing oil, moving the cradle, etc., etc.
I'm interested in what you might think would be appropriate for use in the Hudson that could be drysailed.
I'm 60, am I too old for a centerboard daysailer?
Basically, I'm looking for something that I can hoist into the water,
take out for an hour, have a sandwich and come back in.
Your suggestions are appreciated.

....all which I did a couple years ago. Sold my cat 25 and bought a Com-pac 16. Great boat, trailerable without the hassle of a centerboard. They are very inexpensive and simple. I really love this boat (and miss my cat 25!). Good Luck!

Edited by - on

GaryB
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4303 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2014 : 19:56:26

How about a 19' Flying Scot? That's what I'm thinking about getting when I sell my boat next spring. http://flyingscot.com/

Sounds like it might meet most of your requirements. http://flyingscot.com/Buyerchecklist.html

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2014 : 20:48:15

My thoughts on the Flying Scott and Com-Pac... I consider the Scott to be a very nice lake boat--light, beamy, fairly fast, etc.--it wants to plane. But the Hudson around the Tappan Zee Bridge is no lake (and I'm no kid any more). It's only a couple of miles wide there, but the wind funnels up from the south or down from the north in the deep river valley, with 20 miles of fetch, and with the wind often opposing the current (meaning very steep chop). I only know it from crossing the TZ Bridge, and I respect what I've seen. At my stage in life, I'd want a solid, ballasted boat for comfortable sailing there.

The Com-Pac 16 isn't a bad choice--a solid little keelboat (emphasis on little). The Com-Pac 19 is a scaled up version that I like better--sort of a cross between the Typhoon and the Catalina 18, but a touch bigger than either. Both Com-Pacs are shoal draft with long, concrete-ballasted keels. And both have that classic look--almost (but not quite) like the Cape Dorys.

I guess another question is whether you want a go-fast dinghy or a comfortable mini-keelboat.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 11/04/2014 20:54:02

hinmo
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Response Posted - 11/05/2014 : 05:13:51

How bout a O'Day 192 - I really like their design. Theres one in my harbor. Enough of a cabin for the essentials, but definitely a daysailer.

The compac 16 has some nice features beyond its simplicity; can sit 3 adults in the cockpit comfortably, has a self-bailing cockpit, and does have a cabin....bigger than a DS1

Anyway - there all good. Its fun dreaming about them (ps - I want a Cat 25 again!)

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 11/05/2014 : 09:26:57

The OD 192 is nice--almost indistinguishable from the Cat/Capri 18, except for the centerboard. The 192 has some ballast in the below-the-bottom centerboard trunk, and the board might make her perform a little better. For dry-sailing, the board nice. For leaving in the salt/brackish water, I'd prefer the wing.

To repeat a theme here, Catalina is still in business.......

Edited by - on

dblitz
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Response Posted - 11/05/2014 : 09:55:59

Low tide at the bulkhead is just under 2 ft. That basically cancels the possibility of having a drysailed keelboat unless you want to go the Club and wait for tide (not really). Also, I plan on single-handing most days so I'd rather not have to pull/push a heavier boat to the hoist.
Another thing to consider is whether the boat has a backstay since hoisting with backstay on sooner or later will get complicated.
A lot of details, I know I'm not making it easy for you to recommend something.
Back to the Oday daysailer: I understand that the DS1 has less of a knees to the chest feeling when sitting on the seats because it doesn't have the liner. If I have some reefs put in the mainsail of the boat I buy (if it doesn't already have reefs), wouldn't that make the boat much less likely to capsize? I have been reading that many people have had their boat for many years and have never had a capsize using the reefs.
The Typhoon is a very nice boat, but I'd probably go the Ensign route at my Club. There are a lot of them there, a very active fleet, beautiful, stable boats.
Rather than selling my Cat-25 and getting an Ensign though, I might as well keep the Catalina. Comfortable, newer sails, inboard diesel.
This is getting COMPLICATED.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 11/05/2014 : 11:02:02

The Ensign is a classic--I just could never get over Carl Alberg drawing a boat with a reverse sheer. At 3' draft and 3000 lbs, your dry-sailing objective would be compromised.

You're probably right about the DS/1 seating--the lack of a liner just means you have to get the water out yourself. (Of course you can pull the transom plug and tip the bow up--when you're on the hard.) The boom on my DS/2 was designed for roller-reefing, meaning turning the boom and rolling the sail up on it. But you had to have a "claw" for the mainsheet, with rollers that held the boom by rolling on the reefed sail--I didn't have one, and didn't like what I imagined it would do to the sail.

Maybe some of those DS/1s have normal jiffy reefing. I wasn't sure it could be rigged with my roller boom. I did, however, convert from a bolt rope to slugs on the luff, and left the main covered on the boom.

BTW, I never capsized that boat in our 20 years. I came close when out with a friend who, when we were hit by a big gust, pulled on the mainsheet as she leaned back... Lotsa green water in the cockpit. (It drained out.

)

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 11/05/2014 11:15:04

dblitz
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240 Posts

Response Posted - 11/05/2014 : 16:42:19

Roller reefing is just not something that I'd want to submit my mainsail to. Rigging up jiffy reefing
won't be hard. Anyway, I'll continue my impossible search for that perfect boat.

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clark1962
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Response Posted - 11/06/2014 : 12:01:13

Daniel
Not to hijack your thread but I am considering putting my boat on a mooring in Piermont just south of the bridge. What is that area like? How is the sailing on the river? Are there places to anchor and spend the night? I have been sailing in the sandy hook area for quite some time just wondering what the river is like
Thanks

Edited by - on

OJ
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Response Posted - 11/06/2014 : 18:12:14

Perhaps you might consider a McVay Minuet . . . available in a full fixed or swing keel.

I have one in-waiting for the day I am forced to downsize . . .

http://mcvayminuet.wordpress.com/

Edited by - OJ on 11/06/2014 19:45:21

jhorner
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Response Posted - 11/06/2014 : 18:36:57

You might consider a Harpoon 4.2 built by Boston Whaler. Very stable, easy to sale 15 footer. I'm 66; no problem.

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sdpinaz
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Response Posted - 11/06/2014 : 20:10:37

maybe something like this will work. minimum draft 1 foot.....
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1974/Herreshoff-America-Catboat-2756764/Fair-Haven/NJ/United-States#.VFw4U2ctDrc

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dblitz
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Response Posted - 11/07/2014 : 17:30:05

Have any of you seen this video? Pretty sure it's an Oday though not sure if they're sailing a Daysailer 11 or 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mm8xjwYqR_U
Gotta admire them, though
Thanks to all of you for your suggestions.
Clark,
If you have a house on the water, a mooring a stone's throw from where you live is nice, but if you want to belong to a sailing community, come visit us at Nyack Boat Club just north of the bridge. Info for you at nyackboatclub.org
I live 20 minutes away so I wouldn't think of going anywhere else, but the Hudson at that point doesn't really have all that many destinations. You can race your boat, you can daysail and if you have some free time you can go out to the Sound. Maybe you can overnight at Bowline Point Park or spend the day on the hook at Croton Point Park.
Basically, I'm not retired and I just haven't been able to dedicate as much time as I would like to. That's my reason for wanting to downsize. Maybe with a simpler, smaller boat, I'll be able to get out more.
Maybe I can get up to Labrador myself, someday.

Edited by - on

dblitz
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Response Posted - 11/07/2014 : 17:47:53

Minuet - Nice boat to have in the wings waiting for you. I'm afraid the full keel one wouldn't serve at low tide if I wanted to
hoist it into the water at the bulkhead. They make them swing keel also, but it's weird that sailboatdata doesn't show that
spec. Never seen that before.
I looked into the Harpoon 5.2 and also your suggested 4.2. BW is BW but there aren't that many of them, really. There's only one that I can see right now, in KY (a 5.2 on Ebay) Kind of far to go look at a boat.
Catboats might be another way to go, but somehow I keep coming back to the Daysailer.
The capsize ratio on a Daysailer, I read to be 2.33. Can that be right for dinghy?

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 11/08/2014 : 08:57:22

I don't think the capsize ratio formula is completely valid for a dinghy--its simplicity suggests some assumptions about the distribution of weight in the hull and rig. But the rule of thumb is above 2.0, the boat will tend to capsize--below 2, it will tend to resist capsize and right itself. The C-25 CR is about 1.95

There are also more sophisticated measures (which I haven't looked up recently) for "initial stability" and "ultimate stability", the latter essentially being the ability to right from having the mast in the water (as opposed to turtling). The former, from my recollection, relates to the sail area, ballast, hull shape, etc., and measures the degree to which the boat resists heeling. The DS has some initial stability and no ultimate stability. Like most dinghies, it relies on the "movable ballast," tiller, and mainsheet for much of its stability. (The C-25 barely notices the "movable ballast." Likewise the Typhoon.)

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 11/08/2014 08:59:14

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 11/08/2014 : 09:08:50

The DS in the video is more like our DS-2 (molded seats, coamings, and cockpit sole), although with some differences. One is the stern lazarette--the O'Day just has a bare transom (with liner). There also appears to be a traveler across the cockpit--that suggests it might be Cape Cod Shipbuilders' "racing version" of the Daysailer.

I love the "auxiliary power"--a seat and rails right out of a rowing shell! Also note the deep jiffy reefing and bow sprit.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 11/08/2014 09:17:05

dmpilc
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Response Posted - 11/08/2014 : 11:32:02

I like the Catalina/Capri 18. Looks like a neat little boat. One of our club members, a retired fellow, has one and single hands her all the time.

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bigelowp
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Response Posted - 11/09/2014 : 15:12:46

Lots of great boats and concepts already mentioned. That said, if used there are a couple of 19 & 21 foot Compac's listed on CL in the SW CT area, one a donated boat by a not-for profit looks like a steal. Also take a look at the BullsEye -- lots of boats available, especially in MA/RI and simple to rig/trailer sail. . If new, consider the Sage 17 good reviews especially in a chop and easy to rig. Most of all enjoy looking for said boat!

Edited by - on

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 11/10/2014 : 07:36:12

Semi-related to your topic, I have entertained for many years building a small sailboat from a kit. Because of the procrastination factor and concern of not finishing the project, I would like to take a one week class that gets you approximately 70percent toward completion - Chesapeake Light Craft out of Annapolis offers classes and their Skerry 15' is of interest to me. basically, the class gets you done with hull construction, then sanding, fittings, mast/rigging you complete at home. you bring it home on top of the car or more realistically, you buy a trailer from them and trailer it home. it's lightweight, believe less than 150 lbs. But it's actually a little larger than my liking. I prefer something more like Shell Boats, Lucky 13, which is also very light, has no stays but has 2 masts - The main mast and a smaller one aft. I would like a small trailerable sailboat to go lake sailing or to take with us down to the Outerbanks in North Carolina where we go for our annual family beach vacation. I could use the small sailboat on the bay side of the Outerbanks.
So...if interested in a small sailboat and a project, this is another thing to consider. maybe, I would be swayed to go with the Skerry if anyone else wants to also take the class. anyone interested ?

Edited by - OLarryR on 11/10/2014 07:39:31

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