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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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How much shore power is enough?

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mowrangler
1st Mate

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USA
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Initially Posted - 07/13/2012 : 09:18:09

I recently purchased my Catalina 250 WB and am getting it ready to take out to the lake. Part of my process is choosing which marina I should keep 'er at.

After looking around, my options are Marina 1 which is cheap, but only has a few regular outlets that can be used for shore power, or Marina 2, which has 30 amp twist-locks, water to the slips, and cable, but costs twice what marina 1 costs. (I'll simplify by limiting the result set to two options...)

I'm a little concerned about running a 30 amp shore power into an adapter into a 110 outlet, especially since I don't see any ground fault protection on the outlet and I'm not sure how many boats share the same circuit. But then again, I'm not sure how much I would really use on the boat. There are currently only two outlets that hang off of the shore power, and I will probably add a third when I wire in a charger.

Any advice from you guys who have been doing this for a while?

Ross B
95 Catalina 250 WB #29
Moving up to 90 Catalina 28 in June 2015
Four Winds
Spokane, MO

Edited by - on

putzmeister
Navigator

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100 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2012 : 09:44:06

When spec'ing fuse panels - we add up the FLAs of the appliances that will be on that circuit.

What is the gauge of the wire running from the outlet to the panel?

Edited by - on

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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1511 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2012 : 10:16:34

I think the question to ask is: will you be spending the night or weekends on the boat at the marina? If not, then I don't think it will matter.

My boat is docked behind the house, so I don't spend nights or weekends on it unless I go else where. The only time I have needed AC power on the home dock is to run a vacuum or turn on the battery charger. I just run an extension coed from the GFCI outlet on the piling.

I have this adapter if I need to connect it to the boat directly:

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5885 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2012 : 10:20:46

When my C&C 35 is on the hard, in the spring, I connect my shore power to a 110 outlet and live aboard for a week or two until I launch it, running my refrigeration, an electric heater, microwave oven, tv, etc. I turn a plastic bucket upside down over the outlet, to shield the outlet and plug from a heavy rain.

I never asked the marina how much power is delivered to those outlets, but I'd guess that they are 20 amp outlets, to provide power for tools and compressors, etc.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 07/13/2012 10:23:56

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2012 : 10:50:33

My marina has 30 amp connectors, but the circuit breakers trip at 10 amps. We've never tripped it. So for me, 10 amps would be plenty.

I also have the Marinco adapter for when we are on the hard, since the boatyard only has ordinary 120v outlets.

You can get portable GFCIs to plug into the marina's outlet, but someone with sticky fingers might walk off with it.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 07/13/2012 : 10:59:27

Our marina has 30 amp drops to each slip, as well as water available. I don't think I've ever once come close to capacity on our electrical service, but we only run a float battery charger and a boat heater, maybe a combined total of 300-400 watts which calculates out to about 3.3 amps.

I think if you run your AC drop through a GFCI at the cheaper marina, you'll likely be OK. The marina with "regular" plugs is more likely to have stray current buzzing around, it might be worth your time to talk to other owners and see if they're experiencing any problems with electrolysis.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">You can get portable GFCIs to plug into the marina's outlet, but someone with sticky fingers might walk off with it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Depending on how you do it, you can put the GFCI at the inside-the-boat end of the power so sticky fingers aren't tempted.

As an example of temptation, the hose that's connected at the foot of my slip has a really crappy pistol grip squirt nozzle, so I purchased a really expensive ($2) brass nozzle from Harbor Freight to replace it with. Someone decided they needed it and walked off with it, so now I'm back to the crappy nozzle. Unbelievable. I'm hoping it was just someone borrowed it and forgot, I can live with that, but stealing a $2 nozzle? Come on! I suppose I could walk the docks looking for it, but there's no way to know if someone else purchased the same nozzle for their hose, and for $2 I can't be bothered (but sure can whinge about it here).

Edited by - delliottg on 07/13/2012 11:05:10

mowrangler
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 07/13/2012 : 11:21:23

I'm not really sure if I will spend many nights on it. I'm sure we will do some, but no more than a couple of nights a month and it will be as a fun treat with the kids rather than out of necessity. (I live ~20 minutes from the lake)

I have one of those adapters on it right now... I use it to get power to the boat while working on it on the hard.

As far as the wiring, I believe it is currently 14 gauge, as it has white covering but I haven't had a chance to check it out further. It was there when I bought the boat. I plan on reworking the wiring anyway, as I'm not 100% thrilled with what I have found...

Other than maybe adding an air conditioner or my wife's hair dryer, I can't think of that many uses of heavy A/C power. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything...

One more question for you guys - if I am looking at a 20 amp charger, I assume that is the output rating. Based on what I have read on the Charles industries marine catalog (page 6 under Marine charger technical information at http://www.charlesindustries.com/marinecataloglowres.pdf ) It would seem that if I have two 100 Amp-hour batteries that are half discharged, it would take ~5 hours to recharge them with a 20 amp charger. However, I can't seem to find anything about what the A/C draw is to power the 20 amp charger. I'd guess that it can be calculated if one knows the loss of the AC/DC conversion, but I don't know what that would be. Anyone know how many AC amps are drawn by a 20 amp charger?

Edited by - mowrangler on 07/13/2012 11:24:20

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2012 : 11:30:13

Guest 3-bank 15 amp charger draws 3.5 Amps (AC). Doubt the 20 amp charger draws more than 5 Amps (AC).

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2012 : 12:03:12

FYI, I bought [url="http://www.amazon.com/P3-International-P4400-Electricity-Monitor/dp/B00009MDBU/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1342206124&sr=1-1"]this little device[/url] a couple weeks ago for the primary purpose of detecting whether I am approaching the safe limits of power strips/extension cords/circuits/UPS boxes/etc. It could also be helpful answering some of the boat-related questions that you are asking here:

<center>[url="http://www.amazon.com/P3-International-P4400-Electricity-Monitor/dp/B00009MDBU/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1342206124&sr=1-1"]

[/url]</center>

I read somewhere that this one is actually better/easier to use than the more recent, slightly more expensive version.

Edited by - on

CarbonSink62
Navigator

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USA
208 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2012 : 12:10:11

Inspect your shore power wiring carefully; my older boat (1982) listed 'shore power' on the dealer sheet, so I said 'cool' (to myself) and bought it.*

When I went into the 'dumpster' locker I found that shore power consisted of just the deck fitting wired to a single GFI outlet; maybe that is correct, but it seems a little bit hokey. I was expecting a panel with circuit breakers and such.

All of that would be fine if it went 'directly' to the outlet, but the DPO cut the line and used wire nuts to splice in a batter maintainer. Well, he spliced in a cheapo interior extension cord (no ground) and then plugged the maintainer into that!

When I saw that, I disconnected everything and use the wire nuts to terminate the line. Cockpit locker, exposed wires, salt water... what could go wrong?

*That wasn't the only requirement, it had an ice box too! ;)

Edited by - on

glivs
Admiral

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USA
836 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2012 : 12:39:21

sticky fingers?? - "Marge! Look at all this great stuff I found at the Marina. It was just sitting in some guy's boat!" - Homer Simpson

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awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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1144 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2012 : 13:55:49

I have zero shore power and it's enough. What will you use it for?

The only shore power that I could see using would be to run a small dehumidifier in the winter.

Our batteries charge from the motor and solar and the only electrical loads on our boat are LED lights (around 10W if I turn on all at the same time), autopilot, VHF radio, and a car radio. The 20w solar panel keeps up with that combined load.

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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1771 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2012 : 20:43:31

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by delliottg
 I think if you run your AC drop through a GFCI at the cheaper marina, you'll likely be OK. The marina with "regular" plugs is more likely to have stray current buzzing around, it might be worth your time to talk to other owners and see if they're experiencing any problems with electrolysis.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Electrolysis is only a problem if you have an inboard as far as I know... maybe if the prop was in the water.

sten

Edited by - on

hewebb
Admiral

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USA
761 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2012 : 04:10:38

We have 30 amp shore power and water. I use the water the most. I would not select a marina based on the shore power issue. Unless you plan to run an A/C unit the 30 amp service is not necessary. There are several other items I would consider.

Location of slip to available parking.
Security
Is the slip into the prevailing wind
What size is the slip and its condition
What finger amenities are provided, Bumpers Cleats etc.
Your potential slip neighbors, are their boats kept up.
Lighting at night
Restroom locations to slip
Convenience store close
Dock buggies provided

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2012 : 05:47:02

I have both in my slip....a 30 amp twist/lock and a household grounded 110. I only use the 110 as all I power is the battery charger.

When I had my RV, it had 30 amp service. 30 amps was plenty of power for normal use...you only ran into a problem if you used heavy appliances at the same time: AC, microwave, and a hair dryer....all at the same time....can be done if they're running....but when the AC kicks on it draws ALOT of power the first 5 seconds or so.....so, if the wife was blow drying her hair, I had popcorn in the microwave....and the AC kicked on, we could trip the breaker.....you had to be power aware.

I have none of these needs in the boat.....

Do you?

Edited by - on

mowrangler
1st Mate

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USA
66 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2012 : 18:40:13

I put a lot of thought into this as I was looking at slips and hanging out with friends today. Ultimately I came to the conclusion that I would be better to shoot for a decent solar charger and try not to plug in at all. This would help me be ready to sail somewhere that only has mooring balls or anchor out.

As an added bonus, it will allow me to delay a nicer charger and any shore power improvements.

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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5323 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2012 : 20:08:59

I'm strictly solar and engine/alternator powered, into a single Group 24 battery.
I don't have or use shore power on Passage, but I have an inverter for USB chargers and my PC's wall wart.
For ease of access, I made a double-ender: a 14-3 gauge cable with a grounded plug on both ends. I plug one plug end into the nearest 110VAC receptacle and the other end into the inverter. The inverter is connected to the battery with a 2ft long 10 gauge fused cable. Then I plug my PC power supply or USB charger into a more convenient outlet near my dinette. The only downside to this is I always plug the plug into the wall receptacle first before I plug in the 110VAC cable to the inverter or turn on the power.
My PC takes 90W and my USB charger takes about 2-3W. A 120W inverter is enough for me.
I've been considering buying a 4A cold plate for my cooler. I could run it for a few hours before I'd need to recharge the battery. My solar panels only put out 1.8A reliably, so even in full sun, I'd still be running it at a deficit.

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redviking
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Response Posted - 07/14/2012 : 20:29:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mowrangler
 I put a lot of thought into this as I was looking at slips and hanging out with friends today. Ultimately I came to the conclusion that I would be better to shoot for a decent solar charger and try not to plug in at all. This would help me be ready to sail somewhere that only has mooring balls or anchor out.

As an added bonus, it will allow me to delay a nicer charger and any shore power improvements.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Slip fees for a year will buy you a bunch of batteries, some cheap panels and a 1/2 all switch. Charge em up at the beginning of the season and you should be able to sit on a ball and not need to recharge the batteries until the end of the season. That's what I used to do.

sten

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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5404 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2012 : 03:52:12

Our DC system never pulls more than 5 amps with everything turned on, and that never happens. That includes the stereo and 15" TV. Netbook PC, VHF, GPS, etc.

Our Shore power system can run on our 1,700 watt generator with the Air Conditioning, Freezer, Battery Charger and all of the DC equipment running (with shore power connected, our DC system runs off the battery charger)

So total power <= 1700

Max amps for us =~ 15.5amps

Paul

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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1144 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2012 : 08:42:18

Bluesea has a new product that readers of this thread might like. It is a 12V -> USB adapter that doesn't require plugging an adapter into a cigarette lighter socket. It mounts in the same 7/8" hole as their 12V outlets. I know nothing about this vendor, but this is the product:
http://www.gpsdeals4u.com/gps/blue-sea-systems/blue-sea-dual-usb-charger-socket-two-usb-ports-with--RWC-44767.html

Combined output of 2.1 amps, so it'll charge two modern smart phones or one iPad.

I got it from Fisheries Supply in Seattle for right around $20.

I don't like to use an inverter, they are inefficient and produce pretty low quality AC unless you buy an expensive one. It is more efficient to get 12V adapters for your devices than to convert 12V DC -> 120V AC -> 5-20V DC. You can get 12V DC adapters for most laptops for less than the cost of an inverter (one exception are Macbooks, for some reason Apple doesn't see a 12V adapter as being a useful product).

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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3758 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2012 : 09:59:24

MacMall recently had dual USB cigarette lighter plugins from Griffin for $6.99. I was already happy with one that I paid $18 for, so I bought one for each car, the boat, both kids Christmas stockings and a spare. Just checked, and their price is $25 now.

Checked again, and Walmart has them for $11.60

Edited by - Dave5041 on 07/15/2012 10:12:29

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 07/15/2012 : 10:40:27

The Bluesea dual USB adapter I like! Very much.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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4479 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2012 : 10:45:37

Harbor Freight also sells a [url="http://www.harborfreight.com/universal-usb-12-volt-adapter-96515.html"]reasonably priced USB adapter[/url]. I've got one in all three of our vehicles, and two on the boat. One caveat though, for some reason, Rita's iPhone 3GS doesn't like charging from them very much, which could simply be age. My iPhone 4 works like a charm. I don't know if this is related to the adapter on her phone being worn, or the power is dirty and the 3GS is more picky about it, not sure. However, we have a couple of EverReady rechargeable batteries that hers will charge from no problem, and they have no problems charging from the HF chargers, so that works out. Plus, you can drop one of the EverReady chargers into our waterproof pouches along with the phone for an extra few hours of battery if you need it.

I also like the Griffin, having a low profile dual charger would be handy in our Jetta, the one vehicle we're likely to both need to charge at the same time. Looks like they're pretty easy to come by on eBay for [url="http://www.ebay.com/sch/Chargers-Cradles-/124270/i.html?_nkw=dual+usb+car+charger+griffin"]around $5 with free shipping[/url]. There's one auction for 10 chargers for about $40 with free shipping.

Edited by - delliottg on 07/15/2012 10:53:18

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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1144 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2012 : 12:30:35

USB chargers that plug into cigarette outlets are very easy to find for a variety of prices. The difference with the Blue Sea one that I linked to is that it is hard wired instead of having an adapter into an outlet. It is also a bit cheaper than buying a quality USB charger and a quality cigarette lighter style outlet. I do avoid cheap USB chargers from unknown sources on Amazon, I've had them fry my cell phone and a friend just had one fry 3 cell phones. It seems like they are tested on constant 12V sources instead of the nasty power than an alternator produces.

My boat currently has two cigarette lighter outlets and one of the Blue Sea chargers. All are mounted just above the quarter berth and are made by Blue Sea, so they match in quality and cosmetics. One of the lighter outlets usually has a dual USB charger in it and the other is used to power an old Dell laptop that I bring along for trips.

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 07/15/2012 : 14:33:55

Fortunately my radio has a USB port....normally my iPod occupies it, but anything that can charge from USB can use it...my Kindle, PS Vita, SafeCig batteries, iPhone....

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Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 07/15/2012 : 14:54:33

Might be a good idea to put a 10000 uF electrolytic capacitor in parallel with a 0.1uF capacitor in series with an automotive spark suppression coil on your 12V panel to eliminate spikes. The parallel capacitors soak up the spikes between +12 and DC ground, while the suppression coil prevents hash from running down the DC feed line from the alternator and other electrically noisy sources. Just make sure to observe the (+) and (-) markings on the capacitors.
I added some small capacitors to my LED lights (that produced hash on my FM radio) and that cleaned up the static.

Edited by - on

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