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FL Okee-trip done! Outboard Question

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SteveG_FL
Deckhand

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USA
10 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/14/2012 : 14:05:00

Hello Everyone,

I have completed the journey from Clearwater/St Pete FL to the East Coast (Ft. Pierce/Jensen Beach) with my boat and most of my sanity intact. Thanks to everyone on the forum who volunteered with possible trailering solutions and support for making the trip via land or sea.

My old Johnson Sailmaster 8HP completed the trip like a trooper and was used heavily during several legs of the voyage. Upon pulling for servicing however I learned s/he (what gender are motors?) may not be a long term part of the crew.

I have an older but very reliable Mercury 5HP Long shaft (2-stroke) from a previous boat (columbia 22 fixed keel) and it is still in great shape. It is approx 3 inches shorter than the Johnson but with a bracket to cavitation plate dist of approx 22 inches.

Question: For the next 3-6 months as I am fixing up the boat and only able to take it out once or twice a month on the intracoastal will I be ok with the 5HP? I don’t plan on even coming close to rough conditions as I will only be short half day sailing and motoring <5 miles from marina to some of the islands for anchoring-outings. Please avoid the (best laid plans scolding…) but will this motor be OK in short term for limited use? It would be a big help to direct the repowering funds into much of the other long overdue maintenance boat requires.

TIA for input.

If anyone is interested I will post some trip details (from west to east coast FL via Okee Waterway) and if anyone has any specific questions about that trip it may be the one are where I have something to contribute until I get some boat sense back under my belt.

Steve

Catalina 25 - 1982 SwingKeel

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
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Response Posted - 06/14/2012 : 14:43:26

Congratulations on making the trip. You're darn right we want to hear more about it! I hope you were able to take some time to smell the roses, because that area of the west coast is a great cruising ground, with lots of neat places to stop along the way.

As for the engine, 5 hp should be adequate, as long as the shaft is long enough, especially for your intended use. Try it out, and if it will push the boat to hull speed, it should be OK. My Merc 7 1/2 hp long shaft was more than enough. Don't be too quick to replace the Merc 5. It might be enough for your uses.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 06/14/2012 14:45:21

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 06/14/2012 : 15:26:37

Right with Steve. Most of us don't have 9.9's for the HP, but because that is a sweetspot for features and price on a motor since the size is very popular for fishing, etc. 6 HP with the right prop should be all our boats need, so a 5 should be fine in most situations.

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Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/14/2012 : 15:30:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">For the next 3-6 months as I am fixing up the boat and only able to take it out once or twice a month on the intracoastal will I be ok with the 5HP? I don’t plan on even coming close to rough conditions as I will only be short half day sailing and motoring <5 miles from marina to some of the islands for anchoring-outings. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
My only concern with a 5hp outboard in the intra-coastal is the currents created by the tides. For example, we were crossing Tampa Bay from south to north. When we got to the narrow channel on the north side, the boat was moving forward, but the boat was sliding along 20-25 degrees sideways. That was with a 9.9hp 2-stroke. It was some experience to be moving in one direction, with the boat facing another. Other than that, or very strong headwinds, you should be fine.

I will say that I used the original Mercury 2-stroke for a couple of years when I bought the boat. When I finally picked up a new Tohatsu, I wished I had done it much earlier.

Edited by - on

WesAllen
Navigator

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USA
222 Posts

Response Posted - 06/14/2012 : 18:18:40

Steve, Congrats on finishing the move. It is my plan to make that trip sometime in the future. When I get back down there I will give you a heads up call.

I used a Chrysler sailor 7.5hp for a couple of years before I found a good deal on the Merc. It pushed it very well and I don't see much of a problem with the 5hp except the length issue. On a rough day the prop would cavitate some. But not so much that I couldn't get back in.

Wes

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 06/14/2012 : 18:35:20

SteveG would you contact me.

Thanks.

Paul

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4303 Posts

Response Posted - 06/14/2012 : 20:38:16

A write up and some pictures would be nice if you have time.

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dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2012 : 07:51:31

Until I bought a 9.8 Nissan, I was using a 5 hp Merc 4 stroke long shaft on our C-25(the cruising motor from our C-22). It will do ok unless you are bucking a high wind or strong current. It has sufficient power to push the boat, and once in gear, will cause the boat to squat a bit so the prop will be deep enough. The only real problem a long shaft engine presents, depending on your mount, is coming out of the water if you or a crew person has to go forward. After I replaced the original mount, I found that it did not have the same drop as the old one and I needed an extra long shaft motor.

Edited by - dmpilc on 06/15/2012 07:52:23

Joe Diver
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Response Posted - 06/15/2012 : 08:37:19

I repowered this year with a brand new Tohatsu 6HP SailPro. It's a long shaft, high thrust prop, 4 stroke.

For my needs, on a local lake....current and waves/swell are not a factor....it's a perfect balance of weight, capability and performance.

However...if I were on the ocean, or an area where I had to also deal with wind/waves/swell/current.....I would have opted for the 9.8 and a heavy duty mount.

I think the 5Hp will work for you...it'll move the boat....but plan carefully and try not to get caught in difficult conditions....you could get overpowered.

Edited by - on

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/15/2012 : 08:44:50

Dude.. How was the trip?

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JKBIXBY
1st Mate

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USA
38 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2012 : 17:23:36

I sailed Galveston area for 10 yrs with a Nissan 9.8 extra long shaft. Did fine most of the time. One strong current and bad storm we make .75 nm in over an hour. If you watch for the wake from the push boats you should be fine.
John on Ms Achsa 77 Fk/SR

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Tim M
1st Mate

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60 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2012 : 21:31:18

I'll chime in on the outboard question because of my wide range of experience with them since owning a C-25 swing keel. I've had three different motors and am on the third and final prop for the latest engine -a Tohatsu 9.8 ultra long shaft. Each step in the progression was made based on input gathered from here on the forum. The last move, going to the 4-blade 8.7x5 prop, was really advised against by several here on the forum and I hesitated doing it. It was actually the smartest move of all by far. The 'high-thrust' 3-blade prop that came on it was a joke. The 8.7x7 that I ordered first would max out at 4520rpm WOT with the engine obviously straining. After installing the 8.7x5 I just got back from an hour's motor on Bellingham Bay - in all directions - to test performance against wind and current, and to finish the 10 hour break-in period. Wide open throttle is almost 6,000rpm and cruising speed at a comfortable 5200rpm is just over 6kt (on the GPS). 4000rpm is between 4.5 and 5kt. You can feel that the motor doesn't lack for power and at WOT it will make 6.7 to 7kts. I used a tach and a GPS for my findings. Cruising here in the San Juans it is good to know there is some power in reserve. With the new Tohatsu 6hp that came with the boat, (which the PO had gotten after his consulting the forum) there were times in our first year cruising with the C-25 when we would go backwards or be pushed rapidly sideways with sails up and motor full on. (We now use Washburn's Tables like the Bible). It was fine on a light breezy day on the bay to go out sailing but was dangerously underpowered - to the point of being life threatening - in any kind of wind or current. And there are many rocks, shoals and islands to navigate around here when we go out cruising. The upgrade to the older Honda 10hp (actually 8hp measured by today's standard) was better but even when I found a high thrust prop for it, it too did not have the torque to power against strong winds and currents and at times also felt underpowered. If you never get in a situation where a breeze right on the nose pipes up and you need to get somewhere before dark (or your wife doesn't get off till 5:30 and you want to make a harbor 3 hours away) and all of your motoring is done on smooth calm waters, a 5hp could work for you. One time when the main coil failed on the Honda - always no wind in these situations - we drifted as far as we could and I towed the C-25 the last mile - and all the way into the slip - with a Honda 2hp on the inflatable dinghy. As much as these boats weigh - especially one loaded for cruising - 10hp pretty closely fits the formula for propulsion of displacement hulls for a C-25. The right prop is one that will let your engine develope its available horsepower by turning at it's recommended rpm at wide open throttle - whether you ever use WOT or not. Performance not up to specs is damaging to your engine and limiting its power. Your personal choice of engine is pretty much based on how much risk you want to take but be prepared to make major course changes, especially if you plan on being under-powered. If the reasons are economic, find something else you can live with-out and sell it too so you can afford the right engine.

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2012 : 05:13:10

I've seen the tides get pretty wicked in narrow parts of the ICW, that would be my only concern. So research those local tides and visit and do a visual check out of the areas you'll be frequenting during mid tide conditions.

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2012 : 06:35:23

What tach are people using to measure engine rpm?

I thought that the Nissan/Tohatsu 9.8 motor came with the 8.7" x 5" prop by default when you got the 25" (extra long) shaft? That is what Online Outboards shows, and is also what came on my engine (which came from a local dealer).

Thanks for sharing your comparison of the 9.8 and the 6. I've wondered if the 6HP Sail Pro model would be good enough for a C-25 on Puget Sound. The lighter weight is attractive both for keeping the boat a bit less stern heavy and for easier servicing.

Edited by - on

Tim M
1st Mate

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60 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2012 : 13:52:01

Alex,
I probably should not have said the 3-blade prop that came with the the motor was a joke. In retrospect, I probably did not give it a fair trial. I think because I was already biased to the idea that I needed a 4-blade prop for less vibration and more thrust in both directions at low speed, etc.. I used the 3-blade getting the boat to new slip after launching for the year. I took it out once for a short trip on the bay in a chop on a day the tidal difference was almost 13ft and mostly sailed. At the time my memory of the motor it was replacing was a year old and maybe also because I had the 4-blade already ordered (and didn't have the tach hooked up yet) I was somewhat disappointed with overall performance. At this point I'm not going to put it back on to find out what I don't want to know now. Performance around the harbor with the 4-blade is a definite improvement however.
Google 'Tiny Tach' and several will come up. Self powered, single wire wraps 3 times around a spark plug lead, shows hours when the engine is off and rpm when it's running. Cut a hole in your cowl and install it permanently with a disconnect in the wire to remove cowl, or I stuck a magnet to the cowl and the back of the tach for easy removal when checking oil, etc.

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 06/16/2012 : 17:36:10

Thanks, I'll look for the tiny tach.

I'm still surprised that your 25" shaft motor came with a 3-blade prop at all. The 4-blade 8.7 x 5" prop is listed as the stock one since these motors are designed for sailing use. Maybe that is a recent change? (and the 20" shaft ones do come with a 3-blade prop).

Edited by - awetmore on 06/16/2012 17:39:32

Tim M
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 06/16/2012 : 18:16:48

You're right about the change, exactly what year I'm not sure. After researching the Tohatsu website, they say the motor is unchanged since 2005 and the only difference since it's introduction has been the use of 4-blade props on certain models. I purchased my motor 'new old stock' -figuring that it didn't make a difference. But it must have been made before the 4-blade came out. The 4x8.7x5 is obviously the correct prop for heavy sailboats.

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2012 : 19:07:09

Our 2008 Tohatsu 9.8 came with a 3 bladed prop. I bought a lower pitch prop to replace it with, but I've found the performance with the original prop to be more than adequate for our C-250. We can do about 4.5 knots at about 1400 RPM. I've decided to just keep the lower pitch prop as a spare.

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redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/16/2012 : 20:25:15

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by DaveR
 I've seen the tides get pretty wicked in narrow parts of the ICW, that would be my only concern. So research those local tides and visit and do a visual check out of the areas you'll be frequenting during mid tide conditions.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes, and even a 9.9 is too small when running against the unfavorable...

sten

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 06/17/2012 : 04:35:09

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by DaveR
 I've seen the tides get pretty wicked in narrow parts of the ICW, that would be my only concern. So research those local tides and visit and do a visual check out of the areas you'll be frequenting during mid tide conditions.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes, and even a 9.9 is too small when running against the unfavorable...

sten
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">If an engine will drive a boat to hull speed through a stationary fluid, won't it also drive it to hull speed (relative to the fluid, not relative to the ground) through a flowing fluid?

If you're trying to pass through a bridge against a 7.4 kt tidal current, and your displacement boat is only capable of making 6.8 kts hull speed under power, then you won't be able to pass through the bridge until the current abates. If your maximum speed is primarily limited by the displacement boat's waterline length, rather than by the engine's power, then, if you want to be able to achieve that speed, you need a bigger boat with a longer waterline length, rather than a bigger motor.

Increased engine power and thrust can help drive a boat through a chop, but it can't significantly increase the speed of a displacement boat.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 06/17/2012 : 19:24:50

Have to agree totally with Steve. Hull speed is relative to the fluid. You can reach hull speed at anchor with a sevenish current. The only thing that more horsepower does after you reach hull speed is make the stern squat. Chop and wind are another matter, but every boat can be overcome in severe enough conditions.

Edited by - Dave5041 on 06/17/2012 19:27:20

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 06/17/2012 : 20:04:58

Yup--against a current, more that 8-10 hp is not going to change things. When the C-25 reaches 6.3 knots (hull speed) through the water, it is stuck in the center of the trough between the bow wave and the stern wave. The only way to go faster is to have enough power to get up and over the bow wave--in other words, into "semi-displacement mode" like a fast trawler. A C-25 probably needs 40+ hp to do that. 15-20 will just push harder against the bow wave, so the stern squats and creates more wake, soaking up more power, making more noise, and burning more gas.

For this purpose, 6.3 knots over the bottom in still water is exactly the same as 4.3 knots in a 2 kt. "hurting" current, and 8.3 knots in a 2 kt. "helping" current--it's still 6.3 kts. through the water. The fact that the water is moving does not change the dynamics of the situation.

Wind and waves are an independent issue--this is where 8+ hp is generally a good idea on a C-25. If you expect to ever be motoring against 15+ winds and/or 2'+ seas, I would suggest 8 hp (extra long shaft) or above. My experience against 30+ knots of wind and 4' short chop (which is pretty nasty) is that 8 hp gets you there about as well as anything. 10 hp is essentially the same... 15 is more than you need, and adds unnecessary weight astern. (I guess if I were on a C-25 on the Bering Sea in a winter storm, I might wish I had 15... just for the helluvit.)

Edited by - on

Davy J
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Response Posted - 06/18/2012 : 06:33:01

SteveG, did you go directly across Okeechobee or around the coast? How long did it take? Any issues with the locks or bridges?

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DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/18/2012 : 11:11:52

I agree with Steve also but the fact that these are displacement hulls is to be acknowledged without saying and I think Sten was saying sometimes motor size isn't going to matter. I'm betting currents won't get to 6.2 knots but once they approach 4-5 knots the 5 hp will labor a lot more to try to maintain speed and that sort of thing can make you a bit nervous and the boat behind you quite impatient.

Also you can get "groups" of current that come from slightly different directions and cause you to correct semi frequently, can be hairy with a smaller motor. So a 8 or 9.9hp will just take you to the limit more efficiently.

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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Response Posted - 06/18/2012 : 13:56:52

Steve's right. When our 7.5HP Merc standard shaft (this was in 1987, before this great forum existed!) 2 stroke was in the shop for repairs, I slapped our old dinghy motor on the bracket - a 1.2HP Johnson single gear only forward, and motored with and against currents for a week or so. "Eventually" it actually got the boat moving pretty well. The 5 HP should do you fine as said watch the currents. If you plan it right, you can go OUT with the current and come back later within 4 to 6 hours WITH the current! Tricky stuff that moon!

Edited by - on

SteveG_FL
Deckhand

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USA
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Response Posted - 06/22/2012 : 12:13:56

Thanks to everyone for the great input and encouragement/caveats. I am going with the 5HP during the "flat" summer and working on the boat. There is a lot of restoring to be done and between my work schedule and parenting a young future sailor I have limited time to squeeze working or playing on board; and even to keep up with my own posts in a punctual manner. Needless to say, I love the response and appreciate being part of such a great group. Once I get the major stuff done and summer is over I can put on a stronger, deeper outboard. In the meantime I will have one eye on the weather and another on the tides. Someone else will have to watch were I'm going.

Will work on story and pics of trip across FL this sunday. It was across the okee waterway straight through the middle of FL. Both mundane and awesome simultaneously if that makes any sense... more to follow. Have a great weekend all!

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