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Another Cracked Rudder Question

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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2012 : 14:20:28

Szymek - tell him to make a mold - I may be in the market for a balanced rudder soon. Its been falling to teh bottom of my list for the past 3 years. If I could get one locally I might be more apt to pull the trigger.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2012 : 19:39:25

If anyone's interested, I made a Google SketchUp model of the rudder from the drawing Dave posted. I can send it to you in email. It's not complete, it's still a two inch thick block of the outline. I started doing the rounding to shape the foil, and realized I'd made a mistake in the outline and ended up starting over from scratch. Plus, since I don't have the foil shape to work with, it would have all been guess work anyway. There are no drawings of the foil's shape.

It was a good exercise in SketchUp, but after rebuilding it a couple of times, I sort of lost interest in shaping the foil.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4303 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2012 : 10:05:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by islander
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">also he said that in the last 30+ years that he's been building boats and doing repairs, not even a single rudder came back.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
That's because none of them ever made it back to shore...

Yes the seam crack is normal

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
The seam is normal for a boat of this age but it's not supposed to be there! It lets water in which will eventually cause the core to rot. In addition, the water that does get in will freeze during the winter and do more damage.

Edited by - GaryB on 06/10/2012 10:06:23

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2012 : 10:20:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by delliottg
 ...Plus, since I don't have the foil shape to work with, it would have all been guess work anyway. There are no drawings of the foil's shape...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I think the keys to the foil shape are a primarily a round forward edge and a tapered trailing edge. The original rudder ('77-'87) is tapered on the forward edge. Intuitively that would seem to cut through the water more efficiently, but my observation from owning both rudders was that it creates more turbulence, which reduces lift and is felt as "flutter" on the tiller. The mid-section of the foil is probably not a big factor at 5-6 knots through the water (as it is at 200 mph through air).

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/10/2012 10:21:51

fineg
Deckhand

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USA
18 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2012 : 13:29:13

I had a similar problem on my rudder. Took it out to replace the pintles to go along with new gudgeons to fix the "bump, bump, bump" that I hear all night as the boat bobs at anchor or along side the pier. The old gudgeons were worn and the original, so there was way too much play in there. When I took off the old pintles, I saw some cracks underneath. Took it to the local boat shop to find tht the seams were also cracked, potentially allowing water in. I don't think much got in. Rudder wasn't excessively heavy, and wasn't "weeping". Boat shop was going to grind out the cracks and the seam, let it dry throughly (doesn't take long in 108 degree heat and 10% humidity), put in new fiberglass, and re-do the gelcoat. Expensive, but about half the cost of a new rudder, counting the need to mount the new pintles and tiller, put on bottom paint, etc. Haven't picked up the repaired rudder yet - hopefully today. Hope the estimate holds that it really is about 1/2 the cost - not like my trailer rebuild which started out at half the cost of a new trailer and wound up being close to 90% of the cost and 500% of the hassle.

Edited by - on

szymek
Navigator

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Canada
209 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2012 : 19:38:35

Update:

Couple words of wisdom: if your rudder is cracked DO NOT attempt to repair it! I've learned it on my own mistake!

Well as you guys know I've found a guy that took on the job to repair it. He did outstanding job as when he came to the marina this afternoon it looked just like new.

Cost of repair $340 (bit more than i expected but based on quality of work i had no issues). We installed the pintles in the right places and once he left i decided to go for a spin. It was bit gusty but nothing crazy. About 10 kt with gusts of 15 max (probably even less). I sailed out approx 6 miles away from the marina and I was having wonderful time!

At one point i was close hauled - full sails - and CRACK!!!! Boat started rounding up - so i knew right the way what happened. Well the rudder crack right in half! approx 3 - 4 inches below the repair!

Once i dropped the sails i realized that I can't drop the motor as the broken rudder is in the way! well after about 5 mins or so of acrobatics at the transom I ripped the broken rudder right off and was able to put the motor in the water. Finally i had some steerage!

I called the marina on the radio to ask for assistance once I get back to the entrance and so they know that I'm dealing with issues in case things go south. Well the girl that was on watch told me that she'll get coast guard to get me. Well by that time I had everything under control and I asked for the harbourmaster - i've gotten to know him over the years. He offered right the way to come and get me and assist any way he could!

Well the harbourmaster met me just outside of entrance and towed me back to my slip! Once we were back in I asked them: "what do I owe you" the answer i got "don't worry about it Daniel"

All in all: i made it back in safely. I've wasted 340 on the repair. And I've in invested $50 (case of beer) in the marina crew!

I will take some pics and post on Sunday. But if your rudder is cracked... DO NOT repair it! it's not worth it as mine just failed at a different spot.

edit: I was single handed so that added to the stress level a bit.

Edited by - szymek on 06/22/2012 19:39:48

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2012 : 19:45:14

Wow, glad you got home safely Daniel. I'm sure it hurts knowing that you've just spent $340 for an education, but at least you were able to limp in and nobody was hurt.

The $50 in beer to the marina crew will probably go a very long way.

Ouch.

Edited by - delliottg on 06/23/2012 11:05:56

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2012 : 20:07:17

I'm very glad you made it back safely. Point is well taken about not repairing the rudder. As soon as I can find the funds, I guess I'm replacing the one I repaired.

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 06/23/2012 : 09:44:52

Thanks for sharing this story. It makes me feel better about replacing my rudder too instead of trying to repair and keep it. It is really hard to tell what is going on underneath the fiberglass when you may have already had a soggy core.

Edited by - on

szymek
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Canada
209 Posts

Response Posted - 06/24/2012 : 14:17:34

I got some pics of the rudder.

This is after the repair - it looks pretty good and solid. I was quite satisfied with the quality of work:

Here you can see that he has sanded the entire edge and repaired that crack. Apparently there was no damage and he put a sheet of fiberglass and epoxied it.

Following pics are after first sail (right after i got the rudder back on).

As you can see in the pics it cracked right at the water line - just couple of inches below the lower pintle.

Now that I think about it, I remember when I was taking of the rudder it was quite buoyant. And when we were putting it back on we had to hold it down to put the rings on the pintles otherwise it was just trying to float up. But once i put the tiller back on, the weight of the tiller made it stay down so I didn't think much of it.

Are the rudders suppose to be that buoyant??? or I should of taken it as first sign?

In this rudder the core is foam - so I'm assuming this is not the original rudder as I think all rudders pre 88 had wood core. But have a look at the close up of the core. The foam is not rotten or anything.. So I'm quite surprised that it cracked. Unless it was all saturated with water and just dried up.

But the key is I made it back in safely... and now this is another story that adds to my sailing portfolio. :-)

Edited by - szymek on 06/24/2012 14:18:34

szymek
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Canada
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Response Posted - 06/24/2012 : 15:28:13

Now I have bit of dilemma in terms of what to do next.

I can go back to the local boat builder and get him to build me new rudder - he might give me bit of discount based on what happened to the rudder after his repair. My only concern is that he builds it with wood core and wraps it up with fiberglass and epoxy.

So the options that I have are:
1. Get my local boat builder to make new rudder for me with wood core - cost would be $450
2. Get balanced rudder from Catalina Direct
3. Get blue water rudder from Catalina Direct

What would you guys recommend in this situation.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4303 Posts

Response Posted - 06/24/2012 : 16:10:20

Let the experts build you a rudder. You might not get so lucky next time. Letting your boat builder (probably not an expert rudder builder) build you another rudder might cost yuo your boat or worse.

The rudder on my '89 is foam core and it will float off the pintles very easiy once you pull the pin. It actually is quite bouyant which sometimes makes it difficult to install single handed.

It's odd to me that your rudder broke so cleanly along a relatively straight line. Seems like if it was originally laid up properly it would have broken along a jagged line as the fiberglass strands don't normally break in such a clean line.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
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USA
3440 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2012 : 03:56:00

Same as Gary's.

I thought another option was to go with Foss ? Foss builds our rudders and I thought they were the originaotr of our rudder way back when.

We had a lot of postings regarding this and Foss did not have the balanced rudder design of the last generation. I do not recall the exact circumstances but I believe one of us sent in his old balanced rudder to them and they made a new one for him free so that they could use his as a template for the Cat 25 balanced rudder which they did not have involvement with years ago. I forget what they were charging for their rudder but it was of the foam, fiberglassed/epoxy construction. I would search the forum for "Foss Foam" to read the past discussions. IT is at least another option to consider and from a reputable mfr. I have seen their advertisements toward the back of the "Good Old Boat" magazine. They are into making rudders for many boat mfrs rudders.

Edited by - on

szymek
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Canada
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Response Posted - 06/25/2012 : 06:21:32

Yes it is quite strange how it broke.

Larry: yes good point. I actually contacted them couple of weeks ago when I was trying to figure out what to do at first. I've contacted Foss FL - I believe they quoted me around 550 plus 150 for shipping.

But since I found the local guy that offered to fix it I went that route. He said that in worst case he'll build me new rudder for about $450. That's why I was bit surprised that only repair was 340 (300 plus tax). But like i said earlier - i did not complain as the repair looked good and he even delivered the rudder to the boat and installed the pintles.

Should i even bother contacting this guy?? The rudder cracked below his repair - I only question his judgment that the rudder is still good. I'm pretty sure he'll feel bad and might be bit embarrassed. He might even offer to build new rudder now at quite a bit of discount. He would build it with wood core though - what do you guys think about it. I need to make up my mind today so I can get back to sailing asap.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5895 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2012 : 07:04:03

I have never seen the inside of a foam core rudder before, and I'm surprised. That doesn't look very robust. I suspect C25 rudders are often damaged when they are trailer launched with the rudder in place. If the boat rolls off a roller-type trailer too fast, and the tiller isn't securely lashed amidship, the force on the rudder could be easily enough to snap a foam cored rudder. If launching from a roller-type trailer, it's best to either leave the rudder in the cockpit, and install it after launching, or control the launch, so that the boat doesn't roll off the trailer too fast. In any case, given a choice between a foam cored rudder and a plywood cored rudder, I'd be inclined to go with the wood core.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 06/25/2012 : 08:16:34

http://newrudders.com/?page_id=12

Edited by - on

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 06/25/2012 : 09:06:48

I went back over the whole posting thread and perhaps I skimmed through too fast, so correct me if I am wrong. You originally had a crack and some supported repair, others like me indicated go with new. You then talked locally and got the local guy to repair it and first time out it cracked, though, as you say, you were happy with the finished product. Now you are considering going back with the same guy to make a new rudder.

My philosophy. Well, first of all, I am not going go and rehash the decision going with the repair vs new. That's history. But if I had something, almost anything that broke after a quality repair or if I bought a new product, I would expect the product to hold up and if not satisfied, try and get the repair facility or mfr to cover the replacement cost as part of a warranty. If the repair or new product was not going to be replaced under a warranty claim or if the warranty period expired, I would still expect the product to hold up to many years of use. When the product does not hold up, I generally do not go back to the same mfr. My thought is that they had their chance and they did not come through and so I am going to go with someone else.

A rudder is fairly expensive to replace and I can see the temptation to go with this guy again because this time it will be new and it is less expensive than some or all other options. But if it were me, I would be very hesitant to go back throwing good money after good money and a lot was already spent on the repair. You indicated that you were fine with his workmanship on the original repair. But sometimes what you can see from the outside is not a good indicator of how it will structurally hold up...and it did not hold up. Consider many have had original rudders for well over 20 years and the rudders are holding up fine. Compare to what a lot of money was spent on for a repair that did not make it past the first year of use. I would be very hesitant as to how a new rudder built by same guy would hold up and ...by the way, were you able to ever check to see if at least some that have rudders made by the loca guy, they were completely satisfied ? Still, if my own experience turned out to be a bad experience. That's it...No second chance. If I bought a tv, washing machine, etc and it failed a couple of years after I bought it and was off the warranty, I would go with a different mfr just based on my own bad experience. This is at least my philosophy on most things I buy.

Now is your second try at getting this right ...and for the long term. You are the money man. You control all the options. Whatever way you go, I would ensure you know others have gone the same route and have had success for at least a few years before going with your choice. If the mfr can show a proven record of making rudders for many that would be to his credit.

Again, maybe I missed something in the above postings but except for this guy being local and having a competitive price, what way in experience and quality of past rudder making do you know of that can give you the confidence to go back to him for making up a new rudder.
Right now you are 0 for 1 try with him.

Edited by - OLarryR on 06/25/2012 09:18:23

szymek
Navigator

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Canada
209 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2012 : 09:34:22

I called the guy that did the repair just to see what he says. He claims that his repair holds and the rudder failed at a different spot. So i won't get any money back.

Larry: yes you got it correctly and I will follow advice given here.

So it's basically down to 2 options: a) Foss Foam or b) CD. Are the rudders sold by CD manufactured by foss foam anyway??

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2012 : 11:35:24

The CD rudders are mostly the IdaSailor HDPE ones.

I wouldn't recommend the normal IdaSailor rudder. I bought one a few months ago and I don't think it has a deep enough chord (it is 12" deep when most C-25 rudders are 15"). I find that it stalls way too easily, and I often lose steerage of the boat. In a race last week another very experienced sailor who took the helm for a while had the same comment.

The Bluewater model is deeper and longer and may work better.

Edited by - on

szymek
Navigator

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Canada
209 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2012 : 14:00:21

I'm just so confused right now it's crazy. I called CD just to see if they have any rudders in stock. The salesperson was very surprised that I'm asking about C-25 balanced rudder (660) - she did not recommend foam rudders at all. She highly recommended that I go with "C25 Standard Rudder Only HDPE".

And... for the balanced rudder it would be 4-8 weeks and might be more than 660 as that price fluctuates and HDPE rudders are in stock.

Edited by - on

awetmore
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Response Posted - 06/25/2012 : 15:40:10

The standard rudder HDPE is the one that I have an gave my comments on.

It works and was nicely made, I just think that the original Catalina dimensions (even for their balanced rudder) were better.

I will say that it arrived quickly. They didn't have it in stock when I ordered, but still arrived in under one week.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 06/25/2012 : 20:33:09

Puzzling... My original '85 rudder, that exact shape, was cored with wood in the head. I think the blade below the pintles was solid fiberglass. The whole thing was pretty heavy and certainly didn't float off the gudgeons. The balanced rudder I bought from CD, which as far as I know was identical to the factory balanced rudder from '87 or '88 on, was cored with foam and was very buoyant. I believe that's the $660 one CD sells now.

Did that repair include replacing the damaged wood core with foam? It looks strikingly new, given the damage and probably seepage before the repair. If a shell designed for a wood core is filled with foam instead, I'd say the design is severely compromised. If this is the case, I think the guy built you a pretty piece of junk, and the $340 is open to debate.

I haven't heard of failures of the foam-cored balanced rudders on the later year boats, or the ones people like me bought to replace our unbalanced originals. But who knows...

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/25/2012 20:34:08

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 06/26/2012 : 04:16:35

I agree that with some of these decisions like which rudder to go with it is not an easy decision. If we lined up 10 from this association and asked which optional rudder they would purchase, you would have some selecting each option. It comes down to considering a number of factors and how important each of those factors are to you: Cost, ease of installing/lining up pintles, experience in making/selling rudder replacements/repairs, references, construction methods perceived better, proportion or perceived proportion of success/failure of rudder configuration with known population sold of that configuration and by that mfr.

My concern with going with a repair is that the rudder is a heavily stressed component and if the repair is not done properly, it will be subject to premature breakage. Also, a rudder that has had a crack/known deficiency may be susceptible to addl deficiencies that are not yet visible and depending on techniques available to the repair facility, they may not be able to determine the susceptibility of developing addl deficiencies due to water absorption, etc. yet, we have had a few on this forum that have indicated success in doing their own repairs !! I am fairly handy with doing repairs/improvements to my boat but repairing a rudder will never be in the cards for me - I am prepared to replace it when the time comes.

As far as going with a new rudder, what is important to me is track record in selling rudders to the public - experience making the rudders. Any references or general feel that I can derive from past performence with utiilizing that mfrs rudder. Again, based on my own opinions (not necessarily in agreement with others), I see the new rudder replacements as follows: Those sold by Catalina Direct - Well, CD has a good reputation selling all the Catalina parts to us all and so I would consider a rudder sold by them. My personal choice would be to go with a proven design - One that has lasted for many, many years and that would be the older style catalina rudders with the wood core or the newer ones on the Cat 25s with the foam core. Each of these are then encapsulated in fiberglass. Since my rudder is a foam core encapsulated in rudder and has lasted for 22+ years and is of the balanced rudder design, then that's exactly what I want for a replacement. But I could see if someone had a wood core model, then they would feel equally wanting to go with that configuration. Both have been used for many, many years.

The HDPE rudders made of a solid plastic/composite matl ?...while some have reported good service from these rudders, there have also been reports within our archive postings of some that have snapped. Since these rudders have been on the market for ...what is it less than 10 years and my guess is that since they are newer on the market than the other designs, my erception based on reported failures would appear to be a higher percentage than with the mass of wood core and foam core encapsulated fiberglass rudders that are out there. So, based on that and even though catalina Direct also offers these HDPE rudders, I would not go that route. I would also check with Catalina (The Mfr) and ak their advice. They have a technical/customer support contact that you can send an EMail to them or call them up and see if they can shed some light on all of this. I believe they also will sell you a replacement rudder and it may be of the wood or foam core config but is probably not made by the same mfr that buiklt them many, many years ago...but it is definityely another source. Then there is Foss Foam and believe they sell thru two different facilities with one on the east coast and one on the west coast...but not sure if they are directly connected and I believe they are not but may have been from the same origin at one time. I also believe Foss Foam was one of the main mfrs of the original Catalina rudders for our boats...but those that made it are probably dead and buried by now...well maybe not...I guess I am probably of same vintage and I am still kicking around. Point is that Foss Foam is mainly into making rudders and do so for many different sailboats. My perception is that they are a quality mfr...but that is only my perception...I do not have a whole lot of facts to back that up...but they have been in business for a long, long time.

bear in mind that there is some pain going with a new rudder...Some may not provide the holes for the pintles and you are going to have to line that up yourself and drill them and attach the hardware which they may (pretty sure will) provide as an added cost. I believe the rudder from catalina the Mfr you have to drill the holes but they will provide the hardware. Not sure about Foss Foam and I forget how catalina Direct provides the rudder with or without pre-drilled holes. So...you are right it is confusing and it does come down to a personal choice of sorts. There is probably no one right answer/solution...and as some have pointed out, they suiccessfully repaired their rudders and some have bought HDPE rudders and have had good service with them. So...there you have it ?

Edited by - OLarryR on 06/26/2012 04:18:29

mrapkins
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Response Posted - 06/26/2012 : 04:59:21

New rudders are nice but they do not address the fundamental issue caused by the size of the lower pintle; it's simply too small. That small "finger" of metal exerts a lot of force in a very small area. All I did to improve things was extend the length of the pintle by 4 inches, ($25 for welding) effectively halving the force on the original area. Things could be improved again by enlarging the pintle vertically, again spreading the stress over a larger area.

Edited by - mrapkins on 06/26/2012 05:00:02

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/26/2012 : 06:19:25

The HDPE rudder that I bought from Catalina Direct did not come with predrilled holes. There may be too much variation in the location of the pintles to do that.

I've found dozens of rumors of snapped HDPE rudders in the archives and on other forums, but only one first person example of a failure. Considering the number of IdaSailor rudders in the world and the lifetime warranty I came to my own conclusion that this wasn't a major concern.

Edited by - on

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