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Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Which keel is best for LI sound?

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av8rOC
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USA
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Initially Posted - 02/10/2012 : 06:57:14

Hi all,

After a few months of scouring Craigslist and reading several "learn to sail" books I've settled on the Catalina 25 as my first sailboat. I have a family of four with 2 young girls. I wanted cabin space, ability to sail single handed and tiller control.

As far as finding a boat I'm currently looking for something that was cared for, in sound condition, and an overall bargain. (looking in the 5-7k range).

Can anyone with local knowledge say which keel would be best for sailing the sound. Fixed or swing?

Thank You!

Sean

Sean
Hyde Aweigh 4
1984 SRFK #4152
LINY

Edited by - on

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 02/10/2012 : 07:09:13

Sean:

Welcome to the forum. I imagine you will get several different viewpoints on your question however I would suggest you look at a fixed or wing (if you can find one at your price point) for LIS. Much will depend on where on the sound you are. If you are looking at doing a lot of gunk-holing the swing is fine too. I have a fin keel and sail on the western end of the sound with no difficulties relative to depth and would have no qualms sailing right out the eastern end north to Buzzards or south toward Shelter Island. That said I have a friend who sails all the time with his swing keel C25. The boat is fundamentally a well designed boat for coastal cruising which is exactly what LI Sound is -- coastal waters. I would focus more on finding the boat that is in the best condition for the money so you have minimal maintenance issues on the git-go.

Keep us posted how your search progresses.

Edited by - on

av8rOC
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Response Posted - 02/10/2012 : 07:18:55

Thanks Peter.

So far that has been my strategy.. Search for the best boat for the money and make a decision on the keel then. I'll be sailing out of Northport with the majority of time spent in and around Huntington Bay. Perhaps a bit of gunk-holing once I become comfortable with the boat.

I appreciate your advice and love all the info on this forum so far!

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 02/10/2012 : 07:36:24

Welcome Sean!

In the beginning, Catalina called their fin keel "fixed"... Later they introduced a wing keel that's also fixed, so I called my "fixed" a "fin." Fins will be in your price range--the newer wings will generally be a little higher (but commensurately better investments, especially compared to the swing).

LIS has plenty of water except in areas where the issue is granite, and you don't want to touch that with any keel. Unless you need to get the boat on and off a trailer (without lifting), I'd go fixed (fin or wing). A little-known fact is that Catalina recommended against the swinger for salt water. Some people have done just fine--others have had their boats sink due to accidental "free-falls" that crack the hull. Signs of damage at the front of the keel trunk are not that rare on swingers.

Around 1983 (?), Catalina switched from a bare, cast iron fin with mild steel bolts (that rust) to an ecapsulated lead fin with stainless bolts (which I had). There was also a change to a fuel locker molded into the port cockpit seat (replacing a shelf inside the huge port locker). Both were significant and desirable upgrades, IMHO.

Good luck in your quest--let us know about the candidates and we'll have plenty of opinions.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 02/10/2012 07:37:42

av8rOC
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Response Posted - 02/10/2012 : 07:53:52

Excellent advice Dave thank you!

I've seen a number of nice 1982's but I'l be certain to check on the lead/iron fin as well as the fuel locker upgrades.

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redviking
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Response Posted - 02/10/2012 : 08:06:25

Fixed... Plenty of wawa in LI Sound... Better performance, near 50/50 keel displacement ratio. Less maintenance. '82 was a great year... I loved mine... A great cruising vessel...

Good luck!

sten

Edited by - on

NautiC25
Admiral

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USA
957 Posts

Response Posted - 02/10/2012 : 08:17:45

I agree on getting the fin keel, as long as you don't plan to trailer, otherwise get a wing keel. And try to get the latest model you can afford/find for the improvements made. You have a family to tend to. The last thing you need is to spend precious time upgrading things that the later year models already have.

You made a good choice getting a C25. It has tons of support here and with Catalina Direct. It's also a great affordable boat for the family. My kids love it.

Edited by - NautiC25 on 02/10/2012 08:20:19

av8rOC
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Response Posted - 02/10/2012 : 08:18:55

Here's a couple of options I may go see if anyone feels like checking out:

1984 single owner:
http://newyork.craigslist.org/fct/boa/2819602871.html

Trailer included:
http://newlondon.craigslist.org/boa/2843667012.html

This one is cheap and pretty close, it does have a roller furling:
http://longisland.craigslist.org/boa/2841704251.html

Edited by - on

redviking
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Response Posted - 02/10/2012 : 08:26:12

I like the first one and the last one... The last one for the money gets my vote. Scrap the trailer idea. Haul out like the big boys. Towing and whatnot is a huge pain in the butt... Get a mooring ball for cheap and buy a dink. You'll need it for gunkholing...

sten

Edited by - on

John Russell
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Response Posted - 02/10/2012 : 08:27:03

I wouldn't buy a swing keel unless the kind of sailing I wanted to do mandated it. That is, if I was going to ramp launch regularly and frequently trailer the boat to different venues. It is a significant maintenance concern for a couple of reasons. First and foremost is that if the cable should fail, the results could literally sink your boat. That is, if the keel should drop suddenly, 1500 pounds of cast iron will do significant damage to the keel trunk if it doesn't rip it out completely leaving a very large hole behind. The second issue is the rust issue Dave mentioned above. The swinger is just plain more maintenance that the fin.

I'd look real hard at the middle one (with trailer) in Mystic. The nearly new Yamaha on the back sells for around $2500. You'll need to store the boat in the winter, and a trailer is as good as a cradle for that purpose and it helps with later re-sale.

Maybe you can get Dave (Stinkpotter) to go look at it with you -- he lives in Mystic and might even already know the boat?????? (I guess that's like saying: "Oh, you live in New York, do you know Larry? He lives there too.")

Edited by - John Russell on 02/10/2012 08:37:08

NautiC25
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Response Posted - 02/10/2012 : 08:53:36

Of those listed, I'd go with the second one.

C25's are always being sold, so take your time and you'll find one better than all 3.

Edited by - on

av8rOC
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Response Posted - 02/10/2012 : 09:02:11

Thanks guys, yeah so far I haven't been blown away with any listings but those are just some ideas. I do like the trailer and newish engine on the second.. It may be worth a drive to go see.

Edited by - on

NautiC25
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Response Posted - 02/10/2012 : 09:14:24

Make sure to check http://www.sailingtexas.com/cboats2catalinas.html
They're not just in Texas.

If you're willing to travel and it comes with a trailer, your options are much better.

Edited by - NautiC25 on 02/10/2012 09:15:58

av8rOC
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Response Posted - 02/10/2012 : 09:21:12

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NautiC25
 Make sure to check http://www.sailingtexas.com/cboats2catalinas.html
They're not just in Texas.

If you're willing to travel and it comes with a trailer, your options are much better.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks Nautic, I've been on there but most boats are geographically undesirable. I will keep an eye on it though.

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JimGo
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Response Posted - 02/10/2012 : 10:09:34

Check the Jersey Shore, North Jersey, and Central Jersey listings on Craigslist, too. In the end, none of those are TOO far away from you.

I agree with the advice above regarding keel. If I were to do it again, given the depth of the water in my area (or lack of depth), I'd probably go wing, swing, fixed, in that order. If you have 6+ feet to play with, as is the case in most of LI Sound, from what I recall, then I'd probably go fixed, wing, swing, though the fixed and wing would be a toss-up.

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OLarryR
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Response Posted - 02/10/2012 : 10:12:36

1980-85 I had an ODay 23 out of Huntington Harbor. It was a centerboard keel - lead encapsulated in a shoal keel with a fiberglass centerboard inbetween the shoal keel halves. It worked great for the bay and LI Sound areas. I would go with a swing keel or wing keel - The Swing Keel is fine except for some maintenance you may have involving the cable, etc raising and lowering the keel. But a wing keel will also give provide you with the ability to anchor in shallow areas without any moving parts and virtually no maintenance.

A fin keel is also okay since the LI Sound has very few if any shallow areas but the there are many areas to anchor close to sandy spit areas and a wing keel will allow you to get closer to shore. From Northport, you are easily within reach of the sandy spit that is opposite the mouth of the Huntington Harbor and plenty anchor their boats and use the sandy beach area for the afternoon. Then you have the Oyster Bar Sandhole near the entry to Oyster Bay where the Coast Guard Station is located. From what I recall, the sandhole has room for perhaps 20-25 boats anchoring in there overnight and with a wing keel it will provide more options if it gets tight in there. There are addl areas to gunkhole for the afternoon or overnight close to sandy shore lines and if you have a dinghy or just want to swim to shore a wing keel will get you just a bit closer in.

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av8rOC
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Response Posted - 02/10/2012 : 10:18:06

Thanks Larry!

I've grown up boating in the area so I know all the spots you're talking about very well.. I've just never owned a sailboat and I've always had the itch to learn. (BTW Sand City is the name of the spot you're talking about opposite the mouth of Huntington Harbor).
I haven't found any wing keel's in my price range but I'll keep looking. It looks to be the best of both worlds.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OLarryR
 1980-85 I had an ODay 23 out of Huntington Harbor. It was a centerboard keel - lead encapsulated in a shoal keel with a fiberglass centerboard inbetween the shoal keel halves. It worked great for the bay and LI Sound areas. I would go with a swing keel or wing keel - The Swing Keel is fine except for some maintenance you may have involving the cable, etc raising and lowering the keel. But a wing keel will also give provide you with the ability to anchor in shallow areas without any moving parts and virtually no maintenance.

A fin keel is also okay since the LI Sound has very few if any shallow areas but the there are many areas to anchor close to sandy spit areas and a wing keel will allow you to get closer to shore. From Northport, you are easily within reach of the sandy spit that is opposite the mouth of the Huntington Harbor and plenty anchor their boats and use the sandy beach area for the afternoon. Then you have the Oyster Bar Sandhole near the entry to Oyster Bay where the Coast Guard Station is located. From what I recall, the sandhole has room for perhaps 20-25 boats anchoring in there overnight and with a wing keel it will provide more options if it gets tight in there. There are addl areas to gunkhole for the afternoon or overnight close to sandy shore lines and if you have a dinghy or just want to swim to shore a wing keel will get you just a bit closer in.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

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dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 02/10/2012 : 10:22:03

First off, fin bias here.

At least twice a year, and a few more times due to weather patterns, I have to traverse the shallows. I take some comfort in the fact that my 1,900lb cast iron keel is going to hit before my relatively fragile rudder.

This is my friend's C25 fin keel after an encounter with the bottom. Imagine the damage if the rudder bore the brunt of a grounding!

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av8rOC
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Response Posted - 02/10/2012 : 10:25:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 First off, fin bias here.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

OUCH!

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Dave5041
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Response Posted - 02/10/2012 : 11:05:27

First, let me say that a swing is perfect forme. The essential, easy maintenance is not an issue for me, but I think the lead fin/wing would fit your environment and experience better. It really depends on the value you assign to shoal draft since you are not likely to be trailering. I would also opt for lead over an iron fin if it is affordable. Iron can be fine, but lead is just one less thing to worry about.

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av8rOC
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Response Posted - 02/10/2012 : 12:10:47

Does anyone know for sure what year they switched to the lead keel?

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 02/10/2012 : 12:54:18

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by av8rOC
 Does anyone know for sure what year they switched to the lead keel?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I don't... I'm thinking '83--could be '82. Don's picture is of a lead keel, and the damage is to the thick blanket that encapsulates it (probably to reproduce the dimensions of the cast iron keel). That damage is easy to fix, and fixing it is not critical to sailing the boat.

I'm gone this weekend, but can probably track down the Mystic boat for you next week and see what keel it has. The picture looks like the marina where I store Sarge--it might be there now or it may have been towed out--I can still find it.

Love the British plaid cockpit cushions on the third one...

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av8rOC
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Response Posted - 02/10/2012 : 13:08:31

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by av8rOC
 Does anyone know for sure what year they switched to the lead keel?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I don't... I'm thinking '83--could be '82. Don's picture is of a lead keel, and the damage is to the thick blanket that encapsulates it (probably to reproduce the dimensions of the cast iron keel). That damage is easy to fix, and fixing it is not critical to sailing the boat.

I'm gone this weekend, but can probably track down the Mystic boat for you next week and see what keel it has. The picture looks like the marina where I store Sarge--it might be there now or it may have been towed out--I can still find it.

Love the British plaid cockpit cushions on the third one...

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Haha yeah the third one is probably a little rough around the edges but could probably be had for cheap.. This thread is steering me away from anything older than '82 or '83 though.

Here's a nice '84 FK someone posted in the swap forum, its in Atlanta but I'd be willing to go down and trailer home if it truly was the right boat.
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/pl_boat_detail.jsp?slim=broker&boat_id=2440146&checked_boats=2440146&hosturl=snugharborboats&&ywo=snugharborboats&&ybw=&units=Feet&access=Public&listing_id=56149&url=

Dave if you'd be willing to check that '82 out in Mystic I would be really grateful, really good of you to offer

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Response Posted - 02/10/2012 : 13:29:00

With all other things being equal, if one of the boats has a balanced rudder, choose that one.

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islander
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Response Posted - 02/10/2012 : 15:57:37

Welcome, This forum and these articals really helped me zero in on the boat I was looking for, An 86 or newer wing keel. Read these, I'm sure they will help in your decision. By the way I'm right around the corner here in Glen Cove so if you need any help just ask.
http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/tech/tech25/summertm.asp
http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/tech/tech25/summert2.asp

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av8rOC
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Response Posted - 02/10/2012 : 17:06:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by islander
 Welcome, This forum and these articals really helped me zero in on the boat I was looking for, An 86 or newer wing keel. Read these, I'm sure they will help in your decision. By the way I'm right around the corner here in Glen Cove so if you need any help just ask.
http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/tech/tech25/summertm.asp
http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/tech/tech25/summert2.asp
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Excellent reads, thank you!

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