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2005 250 Wing Keel pros / cons

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GNWFast
Deckhand

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USA
4 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/28/2010 : 05:23:52

Would appreciate information that would address the 22/ 25 / 250 Wing Keel abilities to sail some weather & the Gulf. Also , how does it trailer and what do you use to pull it. My wife and I are looking at a late model with a wheel, furling jib and reefed main w/ lazy jacks. It has 9.8 Tohatsu w/ electric start,tilt, remote to the cockpit & ability to connect to the rudder. We plan to move up to a bigger size later when she retires ( 3 years ), but would like to sail a boat that had some of the bigger boats features.

Thanks for your help / info , Dave & Anne

Dave

Edited by - on

SEAN
Admiral

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USA
772 Posts

Response Posted - 08/28/2010 : 12:29:28

i would wait ..see if you could charter a couple weeks a year ..

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9075 Posts

Response Posted - 08/28/2010 : 16:07:57

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GNWFast
 ...abilities to sail some weather & the Gulf...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...as in "of Mexico"? I would be very hesitant to describe either a C-25 or a C-250, in any keel configuration, as being suitable for "some weather" in the Gulf of Mexico. These are coastal cruisers, which simply means they're intended to sail along a coast when conditions are reasonable, and to be in port when "weather" hits. ("Blue water" or "off-shore" cruisers are for handling weather when you have no place to run to and hide.) You can have a nice day on The Gulf in a C-250, but when things get nasty, especially in the winter, you're not in a boat that's meant to be out there.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 08/28/2010 : 17:00:05

I concur with both opinions. We sail on Puget Sound, which is relatively small compared to the gulf. We've been out in weather our boat's not meant for, and strive to never do it again. Most of the time you'd have a ball, but eventually there'd come a day...

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Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 08/28/2010 : 22:08:17

We have done some cruising (two weeks) in the San Juan Islands off of Washington and British Columbia. The boat is a fun cruiser but these are relatively protected waters. The WK trailers fine and you'll want a 3/4 ton pickup. Generally the 25 and 250 are meant for lakes and bays and along the coast as Dave described. That can provide a lot of fun and if that is the sailing venue that you have in mind the C250 wing will be good for you. Many C25/250 sailors sail along the coast. The trick is how far out do you want to go. I wouldn't go with a C22 for coastal cruising. It's a lake boat IMHO.

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2010 : 11:11:04

I concur re the 25's as a coastal or lake boat. Re the Catalina 22, which I owned prior to my C250, I had sailed her along the Pacific Coast as well as to Catalina Island, about 30 miles offshore. I had a retractable keel which enabled me to get very close to shore when I sailed around the entire island. That said, I have lived in this area all my life and know the weather conditions and patterns. I would never sail that distance knowing the weather might be iffy. On at least one occasion, I had to cancel a trip due to a change in weather. I would do the same with my c250.
There are sailors on this site who think nothing about going out in 20+ knot winds with their 150 jib. These are more experienced sailors than I could ever be.
Re trailoring, I did not get a trailor for several reasons. Mainly I wanted my boat ready 24/7 so I keep her in a slip. I also don't feel comfortable trailoring this size boat and do not have a vehicle for that. I did trailor my 22, but that was a much easier task. I was much younger then too!
I don't know how often you plan to sail, but if you are planning to get a larger boat in 3 years and your sailing time limited, have you considered renting or joining a sail club? Best of luck.
Steve A

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GNWFast
Deckhand

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USA
4 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2010 : 11:14:51

We had not really considered anything but lakes and coastal sailing especially in the Gulf. We were wondering if the boat had any really bad habits if we got caught in some weather. I have never sailed where I couldn't see land. Don't think I will start now in this size of a boat. I know that there is a Mac 26 club that sails to the Bahamas and all but I'm not one of those brave souls. We just wanted to play in something other inland lakes and take a month / 6 weeks a year of trailering and sailing our beautiful coastal areas.
Thanks for your input , Dave & Anne

Edited by - on

GNWFast
Deckhand

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USA
4 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2010 : 11:30:10

Anne & I have no plans to sell or trade what we will purchase to trailer & sail. We are in the middle of negotiations for a nice condo in the Fort Lauderdale,Fl. area. We will keep the big boat there when we need to come back and see the kids / grandkids. We live in the St. Louis Mo metro area and have a 120 acre hobby farm less than an hour from Lakes Norfolk and Bull Shoals. We plan on being snow birds, keeping a few options available to us. That way we will be able to sail all year round if things work out. I was lookin at a nice GMC 3/4 or 1 Ton Diesel to pull with. Thanks for your input, Dave & Anne

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2010 : 12:17:22

Dave, we sailed our 250WB to Bimini. Conditions were far from ideal, but the boat handled the weather just fine. Lot's of bashing around, climbing up waves and driving down the far side. Would not do the trip again (well not unless in good company and plenty of weather window time) But my confidence in JD was only increased by the trip.

We sail our boat mostly in Biscayne Bay which is gentle most of the time, yet even in those protected waters, we have experienced some pretty nasty conditions. After Bimini our concern is more about the crew (us) than the boat.

Paul

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2010 : 13:21:38

What am I missing, the Gulf of Mexico? Sounds like a nice place to sail. Not in a hurricane, of course, not a tropical storm.

Well I've sailed my Cat 25 more than most would dream. I've been in some rough weather. The boat handles it very well. With a double reefed main and a 110% jib you are fine in about 30 knots of wind. After that I would go to my 60% storm jib or no jib (or no main). The problem with the boat is not that it is not strong enough - it is - but there are a couple of weaknesses in real rough stuff (not to worry for coastal sailing - it is fine). I'm talking about 30 knots plus of wind, 10 foot plus of seas, and 50 miles offshore (and yes, I've been there).

(1) rudder pintles and gudgeons are weak and need beefing up
(2) can't motor in those rough conditions, constantly worried about the motor mount ripping off or dunking the motor. I tie the motor up.
(3) no real nav station and so my nav instruments are exposed
(4) boat is so small you can't really store enough stuff for a real long trip
(5) C250 wheel hardware is weak and it broke on Charlie's in a round up.
(6) I believe the gooseneck is too weak, but then mine is 32 years old and has not broke yet. I don't trust it and baby it on those big air gybes.

What I like to do is go sailing on those real rough days but stay close to home, then practice for the day when you are caught out. The C25 is tough and a ton of fun in big winds and seas. From what I've seen the fin and wing are the same in terms of handling weather.

From what I've seen the C250 WB is initially more tender but stiffens up nicely, I've seen my friend Charlie take his out on a day I was staying in. Motor mount looks much better on a C250 but there are so many other things missing (traveller, cockpit winches, side decks) I prefer the 25.

Check out my web site some of the places we've gone.

http://www.indiscipline.org/cat25/indyIII.html

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Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2010 : 14:47:30

Perhaps Arlyn will chime in. He has taken his C250 on some long cruises on the Great Lakes and has encountered some strong weather conditions.

I'm a fan of the wheel steering and have had no problems with mine in over four years of sailing. Also note that the wing keel version of the 250 does have a traveler and many of us have moved the winches to the cockpit for easier access by the helmsman. A nice feature that has not been mentioned is the transom cutout. The swim ladder cutout on the 250 is a significant convenience and safety feature for man overboard recovery situations, swimming and access to a dinghy.

Both the 25 and the 250 are solid boats and do what they are designed for well. One thing to consider is the age of the boat. Most 25s are at least 25 years old and will require more maintenance including upkeep on the hull, teak, etc. Some people love that sort of work, others don't.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 08/29/2010 15:01:43

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9075 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2010 : 18:41:20

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimB517
 What am I missing, the Gulf of Mexico? Sounds like a nice place to sail. Not in a hurricane, of course, not a tropical storm.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...and not so much from November to March. It doesn't take a full tropical cyclone to whip up The Gulf into a frenzy. And 600-800 miles of fetch is enough to cook up some serious seas.

I don't disagree that a C-25 or C-250 can take more than I want to, and ours did take care of us in a nasty situation... Having been there that one time (actually, twice), I'll pass on doing it again. (Jim B. is cut from some different cloth from me!) And I'll definitely pass on sailing a Mac 26M/X across The Stream!

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 08/29/2010 18:42:10

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2010 : 08:27:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
...A nice feature that has not been mentioned is the transom cutout. The swim ladder cutout on the 250 is a significant convenience and safety feature for man overboard recovery situations, swimming and access to a dinghy...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I've been meaning to ask this for awhile, so your comment is a good opportunity. Have other C250 owners attached a cord to the ladder latch to facilitate bringing the ladder down from in the water? I became nervous while working on the boat in March, when the marina was practically abandoned. If I fell in the water I had only a few minutes survival time, and no way to drop the ladder to get back in the boat. So I attached a cord - one end goes to the latch, the other to the bottom step, and it loops down to a few inches above the waterline. If I fall in I can pull on the cord to drop the ladder. Attaching the cord to the other end also facilitates pulling the ladder up from within the boat after you're done using it.

Surely I'm not the only one who has thought of this.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2010 : 08:35:04

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by RhythmDoctor
 
... Surely I'm not the only one who has thought of this.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">No, but it's a good idea that bears repeating once in a while.

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moserd
Navigator

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USA
149 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2010 : 10:03:55

I have done the same thing on my 2005 WK; I feel that if I am sailing single handed and fall off (wheel steering) the boat will simply sail off without me in short order so I wanted to maximize the chance of getting back aboard. I have also considered towing a length of line as a last gasp attempt to 'get aboard'. I suppose the best defense though is to NOT fall off.

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2010 : 10:24:30

<hijack>
We've got a length of 3/8" line run from the lifeline toggle down to the water (almost), and back up, so you can drop the ladder from the water. I've never had to use it, other than on land with the boat over my head, but I feel confident that either of us could drop the ladder if it became necessary.
</hijack>

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2010 : 16:29:52

A C-22 is a good boat to buy if one is only going to keep it for a few years and move up. It took me about eight months to find a good clean C22 and I kept it only about three years before getting a C250 but sold the C22 for what I paid for it while spending nothing in the way of upgrades to it or outfitting it as it came outfitted. It is a good boat to get your feet wet with or transition from a day sailor or cat.

The C25 is the older Catalina 25 foot design and is a fine boat with many very happy owners. They are well built and if a clean one is found, very good buys. They do have external teak that requires some effort and they are relatively heavy to tow so need a reasonably husky tow rig.

The 250 was initially designed as a trailer sailor with the water ballast and two years later the wing keel version was released for those who don't trailer regularly or the boat doesn't live on the trailer.

If plans are for it to live on a trailer, the water ballast is a great boat and capable of coastal cruising. It can be hauled easily with a standard half ton truck.

The wing keel 250 is a better choice if the boat lives on a mooring or in a slip. If it is to be hauled out seasonally, it's not difficult to put it on a trailer as is also true of the C-25.

I'd shy away from the C-25 swing keel for coastal cruising but the fin or wing are fine, though the fin is generally not considered a trailerable design. It can be hauled, but not easily trailered and launched/retrieved.

One last comment, if the water ballast otherwise suits your trailering and storing on its trailer needs.... don't be tempted to think it uncapable as a coastal cruiser. It is a very salty boat in a seaway, having many of the manners of a full keel design and will yield a better ride in chop than will a center keel design. The other plus of the water ballast design is if equipped with a beaching rudder, it will navigate some very skinny water. It is sometimes the configuration of choice even for a slipped or moored boat in places like Florida that have some skinny water to deal with.

Best wishes with your search.

Edited by - on

ruachwrights
Captain

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USA
258 Posts

Response Posted - 09/01/2010 : 07:39:13

I have the tall rig wing keel. Though I usually sail in Narragansett bay, I have had her out on open ocean a few times. Will shoulder swells and non-breaking waves (even large ones) rather smoothly, especially under sail. Lot's of pitching and smashing in steep chop over 3.5 feet which is what happens when the wind pipes up past 25kts in the bay. In some points, there can be 15 miles of fetch where I sail.

The tall rig (which came standard in the wing keel of boats earlier than 1998) is a bit tender. It can take some getting used to, but if you learn to reef early and teach your crew to not worry about battling the helm there should be no problem. Placing ballast in the bow is reputed to help manage the whether helm. Have family of five ages 14,9,6 and we have spent up to four days cruising together. Its a little tight but manageable.

Vern Wright
Sailing out of East Greenwich RI

Edited by - on

GNWFast
Deckhand

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USA
4 Posts

Response Posted - 09/02/2010 : 08:00:08

Thanks to everyone for their input.
I respect fellow boaters because they are willing to help, regardless!
We have barns at the farm that can store just about anything that we purchase.
We have traveled to plenty of places with my 19 ft bass boat to chase ole bucket mouth. Our kids grew up at Midwest lakes camping , skiing & fishing.
We are water babies that have matured, but we have not lost our need for the wind and waves.
One feature that we did really like on the 250 WK was the transom cut out. Easy access is an issue.
If you move the winches to the cockpit will you need to add or move some stoppers?
Anyone using a generator ( wind or otherwise ) or solar panels?
What is the useful load?
Again, thanks for your input, Dave & Anne

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 09/02/2010 : 12:37:24

Dave, moving the winches is an easy project and simply involves moving the winches and adding a couple of blocks on each side to guide the sheets to the winch. Here is the thread where I described our project:

[url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17681&SearchTerms=winches,on,coaming"]Winches on Coaming[/url]

The photos got downsized but if you do the project I will be happy to repost them in the larger size. This project took just a few hours.

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