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Green water over the bow

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JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/07/2010 : 14:04:26

Who has taken green water over the bow? I'm not talking spray but had the bow well submerged!

Who has had a large amount of water in the cockpit - from being pooped or heeled over so far a wave breaks in? I've never had this.

Freeboard is just right on the C25.

I've experienced water over the bow, not on my C-25, but on a really old Sunfish with the bottom scraped down after years of dragging across the beach on Little Pleasant Bay in South Orleans, MA.

My son and I sailed across the shallow bay to the Atlantic Ocean side and didn't realize the boat was leaking. We beached the boat on the sand, tipped it over to keep it from blowing away while we swam and beachcombed along the ocean beach. It did not drain out of the hole in the hull. On the way back west across the bay to our vacation cabin the wind picked up on the nose, and the little boat dove into the chop. After trying to tack the sinking Sunfish,
we finally turned to a dead run and landed on someone else's beach 3 hours late in the pitch dark. Although we could have walked part of the way across the bay, sailing a sinking boat is really scary. Years later, my grown son still enjoys the C-25 when he visits us now, but he regrets that awful night at Cape Cod.

Little boat - shallow water - happy ending!!!

JohnP
1978 C25 SR/FK "Gypsy"
Mill Creek off the Magothy River, Chesapeake Bay
Port Captain, northern Chesapeake Bay

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 01/07/2010 : 14:16:34

The closest I've come is in Ponce Inlet with a heavily outgoing tide that creates "standing soldiers", So you're plowing through 6 to 8 ft waves that are 20 feet apart. Quite an experience! (especially with the outboard going in and out of the water)

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
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Response Posted - 01/07/2010 : 15:47:35

I buried the forward 3 feet of the bow of my first cruising boat, a Catalina 22, under water. I told about it before on the forum, but not for a long time. It happened when we were young and dumb.

We were cruising the Gulf coast of Florida, and decided to take a shortcut through shallow water (about 4' deep) in an area just north of the entrance to Tampa Bay. We cranked up the swing keel, and entered the area, not knowing of it's local reputation for generating breakers, even in seemingly good weather. It was a sunny day with a nice sailing breeze out of the west. The wind was a little strong, but not enough to cause concern. The waves were coming in from the west, and, as we passed a small inlet, a strong tidal current was running out, against the incoming waves. We sailed into an area where the waves, the tidal current and the shoaling bottom contour all coincided, and I happened to look over my left shoulder in time to see a huge, steep wave rising up on our port quarter. The wave lifted our transom like a high speed elevator, the bow pointed down steeply toward the bottom of the wave, and the boat began to surf down the face of the wave, as if it was a 22', 2000 lb surfboard. I can only make a wild guess that our speed down the face of the wave was about 12 kts, although it seemed more like 20 kts at the time. We were going so fast that the rudder was vibrating. I didn't really know the "correct" way to deal with the situation, but it seemed logical to keep the stern square to the wave. When the boat slid to the bottom of the wave, the leading 3 feet of the bow, having less buoyancy than the wider part of the boat, dove under the water, making me think the boat was either going to pitchpole, or that the transom would get knocked sideways by the wave, and the next wave would roll us over. Fortunately, neither of those things happened, although we did get hit by about four more similar, but slightly smaller waves before we got out of the danger area.

A year ago, I was caught in the leading edge of a horrendous storm on the Chesapeake Bay, just north of the Bay bridge, and we took a couple of breaking waves over the transom. I was on a friend's 60 year old Pearson Triton, a great old 28' full keel boat who's sisters have crossed the Atlantic and Pacific, and which are generally regarded as among the great, small, bluewater sailboats. Despite the boat's great reputation, it was only the second time I wasn't sure we were going to make it. The first time was the above incident. In the same storm last year, and the same area where we were, a 40' trawler sank, so I think it's fair to say it was a survival storm, although it only lasted about 2-3 hours.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 01/07/2010 15:48:47

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/07/2010 : 18:43:03

A friend and I were delivering Passage from my old hometown in western CT to my new home in Mystic... With no wind, we were motoring one morning when a big tug crossed about a mile and a half off our bow, throttled way up. In the glassy water, I could see something strange, so asked my friend to go below and close the forward hatch, and we slid the companionway hatch back. As we got closer to the wake, we could see it was going to be interesting: two vertical, cresting walls of water, each around five to six feet high. The bow tried to lift over the first, but some green water came over the coachroof just as we were going airborne. Then we came down with a deafening BANG just before the bow submerged in the second wave, which put maybe 6" of water in the cockpit and soaked us both. Since my friend neglected to dog down the forward hatch, there was some water in the cabin, too. (Lucky it wasn't open!)

Just before the wake arrived, I thought about taking it at 45 degrees, but given its shape and size, I thought it might broach us, so I took it head-on, which might not have been the best choice. But the little Cat came through.

Edited by - on

sweetcraft
Admiral

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USA
816 Posts

Response Posted - 01/07/2010 : 20:57:55

On the NW Cruise this last summer the toughest wakes were from large powerboats coming up from behind and passing in channels but no green water. Had a wind blown chop of 5 to 6 foot waves from Dodd Narrows for maybe 4 miles to Nanaimo and when taking the waves head on the 30+ wind would blow spray over the bow but didn't see any green water. The outboard would come out of the water but I could hear it slow it's rpm (Honda). I changed course from straight on and very little spray and the outboard stopped coming out.
During racing have knocked down with spinnaker twice and no water in cockpit. It happened once with the 150. The crew and I gained much confidence in the 25 during those races. I still use caution when taking on big waves having used a warp with following waves.

Edited by - on

hinmo
Navigator

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USA
248 Posts

Response Posted - 01/08/2010 : 00:16:14

I've capsized a couple smaller sail boats, a few on purpose (Hobie's, 420's, lazer's, etc.) and buried plenty a power boat, but never a cruising sailboat....must be quite exciting.

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DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 01/14/2010 : 07:04:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> I changed course from straight on and very little spray and the outboard stopped coming out. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I think this is pretty important info for people to know Jim. It might be the difference between a fairly calm conclusion or losing control of your boat. You deviated from a straight on approach to what? 23 degrees off? a full 45 degrees?

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islander
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Response Posted - 01/14/2010 : 14:00:36

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">During racing have knocked down with spinnaker twice and no water in cockpit. It happened once with the 150. The crew and I gained much confidence in the 25 during those races.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Your scaring me. I showed this video to my wife, She just looked with her eyes getting bigger, Turned and left the room.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DG3jA6Fswak& feature=related

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 01/14/2010 : 15:11:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by islander
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">During racing have knocked down with spinnaker twice and no water in cockpit. It happened once with the 150. The crew and I gained much confidence in the 25 during those races.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Your scaring me. I showed this video to my wife, She just looked with her eyes getting bigger, Turned and left the room.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DG3jA6Fswak& feature=related
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">On the contrary, it should increase your confidence. These boats are designed so that, if they suffer a knockdown, they'll stand right back up and begin sailing again.

Think about what didn't happen in that video. The mast didn't break, the sails didn't rip, and the boat didn't sink. Although you can't tell from the video, the likelihood is that nobody got hurt. Mostly what the crew got out of it was a great story to tell at the after-race party, and a terrific video that they can show their friends.

I have broached my C25 many times, and have been on other boats when they broached, and never saw an injury result from it, and never saw significant boat damage. It's a spectacular sight when it happens, but not nearly as bad as it looks.

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PCP777
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Response Posted - 01/15/2010 : 15:42:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by islander
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">During racing have knocked down with spinnaker twice and no water in cockpit. It happened once with the 150. The crew and I gained much confidence in the 25 during those races.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Your scaring me. I showed this video to my wife, She just looked with her eyes getting bigger, Turned and left the room.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DG3jA6Fswak& feature=related
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">On the contrary, it should increase your confidence. These boats are designed so that, if they suffer a knockdown, they'll stand right back up and begin sailing again.

Think about what didn't happen in that video. The mast didn't break, the sails didn't rip, and the boat didn't sink. Although you can't tell from the video, the likelihood is that nobody got hurt. Mostly what the crew got out of it was a great story to tell at the after-race party, and a terrific video that they can show their friends.

I have broached my C25 many times, and have been on other boats when they broached, and never saw an injury result from it, and never saw significant boat damage. It's a spectacular sight when it happens, but not nearly as bad as it looks.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

When you broached your C25, how much water did you get in the cockpit if any? Is there a danger of water entering down below through the companion way when your completely knocked down?

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 01/15/2010 : 17:09:28

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by PCP777
When you broached your C25, how much water did you get in the cockpit if any?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Two or three times, a little water came into the cockpit over the coaming, but usually it didn't. If the broach came on gradually, no water came into the cockpit. If it happened suddenly, then a little water might come over the coaming - not much; maybe a half gallon.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Is there a danger of water entering down below through the companion way when your completely knocked down?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
It's possible, but, if you "batten down the hatches," it would be very unlikely, short of a freak occurrence. If a swinger broached so far that the keel swung up against the hull, the boat might be slow in righting itself, and could take on water. I've never seen or heard of a C25 going over that far, but it could happen with any sailboat, although it's very rare.

I sailed past an Etchell that broached and sank during a race on the Chesapeake Bay. He had failed to secure his hatch, and the boat filled with water and sank when it broached. The C25 has much higher freeboard and would be much less susceptible to sinking than the Etchell. (The Etchell was raised the same day, suffered no significant damage, and raced again the next day.)

The danger isn't only from water going down the companionway, but from the cockpit hatch flopping open when the boat goes inverted, and the cockpit hatch filling with water. The remedy for that is to secure all the hatches when it starts to get rough, but many of us forget to do that. The v berth hatch should be dogged down, the hatchboards should be in place, the sliding hatch should be closed, and the hasp on the hatchboards should be secured with a clip of some kind. Also, the hasps on the cockpit hatches should be secured with a clip.

The "corked bottle" principle says that, if you toss a securely corked bottle on the ocean during the worst storm, it will still be floating after the storm so long as it remains corked and the bottle remains intact. If you fail to secure the hatches when it begins to get rough, then you are sailing in an uncorked bottle.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 01/15/2010 17:15:06

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2010 : 21:36:14

Agreeing with Steve, I'd say the companionway, when the boat is lying on its side, is high enough that little or no water will enter the cabin. The amount that enters the cockpit at that point may or may not be enough to be above the top companionway sill when the boat rights itself, which could mean a little water in the cabin (particularly if the hatchboards are out)... but nothing that would sink the boat. The biggest threat I see is the "dumpster" (the port-side sail locker), which, if unlatched, could flop open and let water that comes over the port coaming flow into the locker and directly into the bilge. That could be a recipe for going down. I always kept an unlocked padlock on the hasp for that locker so it wouldn't pop open in such an event.

All that said, I'll go back to the song that the C-25 is not a blue-water boat intended to be knocked down, rolled, or totally "pooped" (waves crashing into the cockpit). If conditions could lead to those things, stay home or get there as soon as possible.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 01/16/2010 : 08:04:54

It occurred to me that somweone might say, "Steve says nothing bad will happen if my boat broaches," and then might go out and intentionally broach their boat to see what happens. When I say that, that assumes that you have secured the hatches, and that the boat is in good condition, especially that the mast is well tuned. If the mast stays are too loose, or weakened due to age, or the mast is out of column, it's liable to snap. A sailboat is engineeered like a bridge. The strength of one part depends on all the other parts being in their proper place, performing their designed function. If a key part, such as a mast stay, is not performing it's function, it undermines the strength of the entire structure.

The first couple of times I broached my boat were unintentional. My rig was always well-tuned and in good repair. The boat is designed to withstand those stresses if properly maintained. I don't recommend that anyone broach their boat on purpose. I'm simply saying that you shouldn't fear a broach if you're prepared for it, and if your boat is sound.

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PCP777
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Response Posted - 01/19/2010 : 08:27:23

I really appreciate the feedback and everything I learn from this forum. I've been sailing with the port hatch not secured, this will change. Should be getting Stephanos back tomorrow with her new bottom job, polished and buffed hull, new roller furling set up and new back stay with the rig nice and tuned.

Looks like great sailing weather this weekend, I can hardly wait.

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