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Maneuvering from tight quarters at dock

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2010 : 08:46:05

David, is your slip the up current or down current? Do you have a choice which way to slip?

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2010 : 08:57:02

We're down current now, but had two different up current slips previously. I still try to time my arrivals to an incoming tide to minimize the current we have to deal with. At least now it's not quite such a white knuckle affair as before. I'm still going to try to rig a pull-pull link system over the winter.

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2010 : 10:15:00

I'm not all that experienced at docking in slips only doing so during transient docking but there are many sailors with a ton of experience who when they understand your need, could offer suggestions.

I only know that a 250 is much harder to deal with than a C30. A big issue is that larger boats can use engine thrusting off the rudder, a very important tool not available to a stern mounted outboard. Regaining that thrusting ability by steering the outboard is very helpful.

Those that think they should be able to hold the outboard stationary as the big boats do, are forgetting the rudder thrusting advantage of big boats.

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Unsinkable2
Captain

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USA
273 Posts

Response Posted - 01/20/2010 : 12:57:19

You either develop skills maneuvering in tight slips or you develop skills in gel coat chip repair. Until you develop one or the other, this tip is really handy:

We have very tight slips with crushingly unforgiving concrete fingers. I return to the slip after dark most nights, and occasionally have 20+mph winds diagonally from behind. If I shut the outboard off and try to coast in with the wind, I lose steerageway (this is bad for my neighbors boats). If I run the motor fast enough to overcome the diagonal winds, and then I have about 6 feet to stop before I slam into the dock (this is bad for my boat).

So the solution is to take an oversized fender and hang it from two eyehooks at the dock's edge where the bow would hit. The oversized fender provides just enough resistance that it will absorb the shock of hitting the dock without damaging the boat.

Of course, with my brain-surgeon-like accuracy at the helm, such a fender would go completely unused. On the other hand, if a friend were to take the boat into the slip late at night when no one's around and a wicked diagonal wind is blowing, I - er - HE - might like knowing that my friend the faithful fat fender is waiting to greet the boat and me - oops - HIM.

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Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 01/20/2010 : 13:48:02

We did two things to help with this issue. First we lined the entire finger with vinyl dock edging including a rubber dock corner at the end of the finger. We also have three round fenders affixed to the finger and always in the water. We can bump the finger edge with no damage at all and the fenders keep the hull off the finger as well.

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 01/20/2010 : 15:29:07

I'm glad you mentioned that Randy, I need to re-task my corner roller fender from our previous slip. I'll likely have to do some redrilling so it can be mounted on the left side of the finger pier instead of the right, or I might have to have a mirror image one built by my blacksmith friend. Need to add this to my seemingly ever growing task list for the winter.

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jlannutti
Navigator

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USA
102 Posts

Response Posted - 01/21/2010 : 09:16:43

The old adage of "never approach a dock faster than you are willing to hit it" unfortunately does not apply to 250s. My marina has rather tight slips and you board via the transom, i.e. no finger piers. While I can't say that leaving the slip has ever been a problem the reverse is true for returning. I must position my craft almost perpendicular in the fairway with the bow slightly to windward,estimating how far the bow will come around due to the wind AND the effect of the prop. (more than slightly in a significant wind). I put the engine in reverse and must get the boat moving enough to give me steerage well before getting to the outer pilings. You can't be too timid. The only way to achieve the confidence to be this "bold" is to practice repeatedly away from the slip until you know EXACTLY how far to the side the stern is going to kick when the engine is shifted into forward to slow the boat down before coming to a stop. The angle of approach must be planned just so. Since I single hand almost all the time I've become very proficient but I had a few embarrassing moments during the learning process. I also have my bow lines ready to go so I can get to the bow in a hurry to drop the pre-spliced eye over the bow cleats in a hurry

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5882 Posts

Response Posted - 01/21/2010 : 10:44:21

There are some slips that are inherently very difficult to enter and leave, but, in most cases, there's no reason why you should struggle to get a boat into a slip, if you can get either the bow or the stern of the boat started between the pilings. We sailors tend to approach the problem by thinking about it in the same manner that we think about pulling our car into a garage - we want to line it up and drive it in. We wouldn't even consider pulling it up to the entrance, getting out, and pushing the car the rest of the way into the garage. But a boat maneuvers completely differently from a car. My boat is 35', weighs about 14,000#, and I'm a 67 year old frequent singlehander, and, if I can get either the bow or the stern of the boat in between the first two pilings, I can use the boat hook to push and pull it the rest of the way into the slip. You don't have to use the engine to put it in the slip. It's perfectly good seamanship to get it close to the slip, put the engine in neutral, and use the boat hook to push and pull it in the rest of the way.

Also, when you have a boat that is difficult to maneuver, you have to use every tool at your disposal, because every little bit helps. Prop walk doesn't depend on the prop wash flowing against the rudder. The effect happens regardless of whether the prop wash flows against the rudder, although the effect is increased if the prop wash flows against the rudder. You can prove it with an experiment, done in very light air, so that wind is not a factor. Set your outboard engine so that its thrust is dead ahead. Let the boat come to a dead stop. Then put it in reverse and give it a little throttle, until it starts moving backwards a few feet. Then shift into forward gear, and give it a little throttle, until it begins to move forward a few feet. Then shift into reverse and repeat that process, and you'll see that, each time you back up, the transom of the boat will move to port. If you keep it up, the boat will rotate in a circle, turning gradually to starboard.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/21/2010 : 14:36:17

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 ...If you keep it up, the boat will rotate in a circle, turning gradually to starboard.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...although each time you juice it in forward, the prop-walk will push the stern to starboard, turning the boat back to port. (...maybe less if the prop is directly forward of the rudder, as on your C&C.)

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5882 Posts

Response Posted - 01/21/2010 : 15:40:36

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/21/2010 : 19:10:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby The maneuver is explained on the US Sailing website as follows: "In a sailboat with a right-hand prop, the ship's wheel is turned and kept to starboard (or tiller to port). Forward thrust will turn the boat starboard as reverse prop walk will turn the stern to port. The boat rotates clockwise."<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Of course, with a rudder behind the prop (which I suspect US Sailing assumes), and turned so it counteracts prop-walk in forward gear when the prop wash is against the rudder (which is not what you described). In a C-25, prop walk from throttling up at low speeds or stopped definitely turns the boat to port (pushes the stern to starboard), and the rudder will do little to counteract it until steerage speed is reached. I dealt with this every time I exited and entered my slip, which was about 16" wider than the boat.

Turning the engine to starboard in forward gear would seem to counter it, but it tends to push the whole boat (bow and stern) somewhat to port until you have some way on. Sometimes that works to your advantage. If not, short bursts of the throttle with the engine turned a little, followed by idling down, lets the keel straighten things out.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 01/22/2010 07:16:52

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5882 Posts

Response Posted - 01/22/2010 : 07:19:08

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby The maneuver is explained on the US Sailing website as follows: "In a sailboat with a right-hand prop, the ship's wheel is turned and kept to starboard (or tiller to port). Forward thrust will turn the boat starboard as reverse prop walk will turn the stern to port. The boat rotates clockwise."<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Of course, with a rudder behind the prop (which I suspect US Sailing assumes), and turned so it counteracts prop-walk in forward gear when the prop wash is against the rudder (which is not what you described). In a C-25, prop walk from throttling up at low speeds or stopped definitely turns the boat to port (pushes the stern to starboard), and the rudder will do little to counteract it until steerage speed is reached. I dealt with this every time I exited and entered my slip, which was about 16" wider than the boat.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Dave, the C250 offers maneuvering challenges for it's owners. In this thread they are asking for ideas for techniques that they might be able to use to help them. The suggestions I'm making aren't theoretical or experimental. They work, and the operators of bigger, fixed prop boats, including the biggest commercial vessels, rely on them.

I don't know whether they'll work as well on a C250. I never tried them on a C250. They work better on some boats than on others. C250 owners won't know whether these techniques will help them until they try them. Personally, I don't see how their ability to maneuver their boats can be harmed by learning additional techniques for doing so. When I don't know whether a certain technique will work, my preference is to experiment with it, rather than to simply assume that it will not. You'll never know what you can do until you try.

Vern, in your initial post you say some of your maneuvering problems happen when you use an unfamiliar transient slip, such as at a restaurant. In that situation, gather some information before you enter the slip. Check for any tidal current, and watch the wind direction and strength for a minute. Look at how other boats entered their slips. Did they enter bow-first, or back in? The people who regularly use nearby slips usually know the best way to get in and out.

Get everything ready before you enter the slip. Explain your plan to your crew. Have all your docklines in place and your boat hook on deck and ready to use. Sometimes, if the conditions are too challenging, the best decision is to not use that slip.

Edited by - on

willyd103
1st Mate

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USA
49 Posts

Response Posted - 01/23/2010 : 18:19:34

Whew! And I thought I was the only one having issues with my C250 getting into and out of my slip! I managed to have not one catastrophic slip incident this past boating season!
I attribute it to luck. Well - practice too. It only took 10 years at the same slip, the loss of the bow nav lights (twice), one gelco repair and installing some fenders at the front of the slip
to have one season without a docking panic.
Undocking was best achieved by going "full astern" with the rudder amidships. I don't have a rudder/outboard link. It seems easier and you get a quicker steering response using only the outboard.
My goal is to be in the middle of the fairway with the outboard and rudder amidships and move to "slow astern" and then to all stop. I then shift into "slow ahead" and use the rudder/wheel to keep
her centered in the fairway until forward momentum is achieved.

Getting back into the slip is best described as having the "Catalina 250 sailors eye". Does it seem like I've got enough speed for the rudder to overcome the issues with wind and tide? Will she miss the
piling on the port side and hit the target of fenders at the front of the slip gently enough so she doesn't get a bruise? Once she nudges up against the fenders, actually she bounces a little,
I push the throttle to ahead dead slow and use the rudder to swing the stern in toward the finger. I usually step off of Stardust, tie down bow and stern lines that are on the dock and then
jump back on board and perform engine shut down.

Now that I've told you this, I bet I'll need a new bow nav light and stem gelco repair by the end of the 2010 season.

Will Dawson
C250 WK #215
Stardust
Hingham, MA
Massachusetts Bay

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/24/2010 : 10:24:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by willyd103
 ...I usually step off of Stardust, tie down bow and stern lines that are on the dock and then
jump back on board and perform engine shut down.

Now that I've told you this, I bet I'll need a new bow nav light and stem gelco repair by the end of the 2010 season.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Will--do a forum search on "springline" or "spring line", and then set one up that you can grab on your way in. Works great!

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John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 01/24/2010 : 10:46:48

[url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15645&SearchTerms=dock-o-matic"]Dock-o-Matic[/url]

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Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 01/24/2010 : 13:59:29

I went and re-sized the photos in that old thread so they are larger now. Three years later we still use the Dock-A-Matic every time we dock.

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Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 01/25/2010 : 09:50:59

Here's the link: http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15645

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willyd103
1st Mate

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USA
49 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2010 : 13:49:18

The Doc-O-Matic is a great idea! Thanks for the tip... I'm going to make the
trip to West Marine so I can get the stuff I need to make one.

Will Dawson
C250 WK #215
Stardust
Hingham, MA
Massachusetts Bay

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2010 : 14:34:45

Just last week I found some clear spiral wrap to further stiffen our [url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19741&SearchTerms=bowline"]Dock-o-matic MK II[/url]. While the original design works OK, the extra stiffness should make it even easier to use.

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islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4012 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2010 : 15:16:58

Randy,I think you better get a patent on the Dock-o-Matic. I can see you now in one of those booths at the boat shows next to the guy selling the Wonder Mop!

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piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 01/28/2010 : 14:29:27

Hey, dont cowboys use those stiff ropes for lassoing? They are gonna want a cut too!
Steve A

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/28/2010 : 15:29:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by piseas
 Hey, dont cowboys use those stiff ropes for lassoing? They are gonna want a cut too!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">But cowboys don't have that cute little loop for the boat-hook. That's a great touch!

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 01/28/2010 : 20:46:04

Here's a bit of irony for you, I decided to wash all my lines in mesh bags in the washer. All of them except the Dock-O-Matic survived nicely. My knot got partially washed out in the tumbling, so now I have to remember how to tie it again.

Edited by - on

Charley Sheets
Deckhand

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5 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2010 : 16:06:06

Gentlemen, I have been using two very necessary items on my last boat which have proven invaluable to me. The first is an extension handle which slips over the steering on my outboard and tightens down with clamping action provided by tightning the locking knobs. it will not damage the handle and is quick to install and remove. I picked it up at Walmart for $30. or so. Also available at bass pro shop and other places. It also comes in two lengths. Ihe outboard is easily steered left and right while sitting in the seat. I can turn my boat around in a circle or overcome any number of bad docking situations. The other is the tiller locking system. The one i have now has a locking knob to hold the tiller in place or simply add tension for single hand sailing. It is most important when backing out of my dock with lots of wind trying to blow me onto the rocks. I lock my rudder in centered position and turn using the outboard. If uou try to speed backwaed and the rudder slams over you will really hate the show you will be putting on. Being squashed by your tiller is bad, but the new direction your boat heads can be terafying in a close fairway. Charley, #2458

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piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 02/02/2010 : 10:49:14

Charlie, thanks for that. But do you have links to the sites and/or pics on your boat. I did not find any online at WalMart and but did see several at Bass Pro. That you help.
Steve A

Edited by - piseas on 02/02/2010 10:57:36

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