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Maneuvering from tight quarters at dock

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ruachwrights
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USA
258 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/18/2009 : 17:44:23

One of my main problems in retrospect was leaving the dock when there is no initial momentum. Where my Nissan 9.8 is mounted in the outboard mounting area, it is impossible to move it very much to assist in turns. I had some close calls and have had to replace my bow light twice because until I have some speed, the boat seems to be completely at the mercy of the wind and tide. I can move it forward or backward but turning is nearly impossible unless I have running room. Fortunately I keep my boat on a mooring so I usually don't have problems unless I pull up to a restaurant. Any simple tips for reducing embarrassment and white knuckles?

97 Catalina 250 TR/ WK
Hull #301
Attleboro, MA

Edited by - on

ruachwrights
Captain

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258 Posts

Response Posted - 12/18/2009 : 17:49:26

P.S I have a wheel.

Vern Wright

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 12/18/2009 : 20:08:33

Vern, we've got nearly identical boats (hull 271, WK, TR) and I feel your pain. You should look into making either a soft or hard link for your engine & rudder. There are numerous threads on this, but I'd start with Arlyn's soft link which is the easiest way to go. I had a hard link with my old two stroke engine, but have yet to figure out how to make one work well with my new engine. Having the engine linked to the rudder makes a HUGE difference in maneuverability at low speed, you typically would unlink and point the engine straight forward when you don't need the maneuvering capability.

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Voyager
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Response Posted - 12/18/2009 : 22:25:07

I agree that moving the rudder in concert with the engine is the best way to go in tight quarters, but it's really like the old joke goes:
"How do you get to Carnegie Hall?" Practice - Practice - Practice.

Being on a mooring, you rarely have to deal with working in tight quarters, but it took me several months, no maybe a few years, to get comfortable with going into and out of slips, especially with wind and current.

While I live on a dock end, I still have to get around my dockmates and the gas dock traffic regularly. From time to time, I take Passage into the fingers near the bulkhead so I'll be out of direct exposure to the fetch of the river when nor'easters come up, and when traveling to other marinas, I've got to be able to handle tight parking spaces.

It really took me two years of doing it regularly before I could say I can control the boat in tight spots.

It's mainly about controlling and counteracting the effects of wind and current. I always ask for a slip where I have to oppose the wind and current getting out. Way I figure, I can always get in and use the Randy-o-matic line to catch a cleat on my way in.

It's generally the way out that gives me trouble.

Nobody's perfect, and as they say about groundings, its never IF you're going to run aground, its always when! Same holds true for docking.

Edited by - on

britinusa
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Response Posted - 12/19/2009 : 06:52:39

Must admit that I can only recall being on the water a single handed once.
Peggy is not as agile as myselft when it comes to stepping/jumping ashore, so she's at the helm and I'm on the side with the lines (I guess I'm on the sidelines

)

When I did manover the boat alone, it was not comfortable at all! I have great respect for Peggy's learned ability to control the boat as we move in and out of the slips. So for you guys that do this regularly, kudos!

We have my own design of hardlink and it's never disconnected unless we raise the engine. Works like a charm.

Paul

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John Russell
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Response Posted - 12/19/2009 : 08:11:12

I think the real solution to the problem is as Bruce said: Practice! There are a lot of threads about hard and soft links and I'm sure they're helpful but, I think practice is the real answer. Oh, yeah, Dave's sage advice about never approaching a dock faster than you're willing to hit it helps too.

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zebra50
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408 Posts

Response Posted - 12/19/2009 : 08:25:03

I have a WB #370 and had the same problem for a number of years. No amount of practice would help, and having a wheel with motor controls made the operation even worse by having to move from throttle to motor while watching progress and steering. The only solution was moving the motor and the rudder, and if the wind was from the wrong direction that just made matters worse. I finally installed an Ez Steer hard link from the rudder to the motor and have not had a problem since.

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/19/2009 : 09:12:07

Jay's solution is probably what you need--he has the same engine with the same turning limitation...

Another thing to be aware of, for planning your maneuvers, is "prop-walk". When the boat is standing still or moving very slowly, a burst of power in forward gear will push the stern to starboard (turning the boat to port). In reverse, it pulls the stern to port (also turning the boat to port). Being aware of this and sometimes being able to use it to advantage can make maneuvering easier. You can counteract it to some degree by turning the engine to starboard before throttling up.

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 12/19/2009 : 13:51:04

Hi Dave and Jay...

Jay, your pic caught my eye. Is that a 1st generation beaching rudder or is it angled back somewhat that isn't discernible in the picture?

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 12/20/2009 : 08:28:16

There are a number of techniques you can use to maneuver a boat. You can use the engine, or you can use a boathook to pull it into a slip by hand. You can let the wind push the boat into place, or you can use a spring line to limit the boat's movement, so that it can only move in a certain desired direction. One of the benefits of an outboard engine is that the prop's thrust can be pointed in the direction in which you want to apply force, and, by doing so, you can use the engine to kick the stern to the right or left, as you wish. If a boat has an inboard engine, with a fixed prop, you can't do that, so sailors with inboard engines learn that they have to use the prop's torque ("propwalk") to maneuver the boat, as well as all these other techniques. If the boat isn't going fast enough to have "steerageway," you must use prop torque or directed prop thrust to maneuver the boat. If you have steerageway, then you can use the rudder to maneuver the boat. Because the C250 somewhat limits the turning of the engine, the techniques normally used by inboard powered boats must be used to maneuver a C250. The key to maneuvering a boat successfully is to know your boat's limitations, know all the techniques for maneuvering such a boat, and to be able to plan your approach in advance, and to decide quickly which technique you need to use at any given point in the docking procedure. That requires study and practice.

If you use prop torque to maneuver the boat, you learn that, when you back the boat, for example, the boat's stern will only move in one direction - to port, and it will generally move to port to a reasonably predictable extent. Therefore, the key to maneuvering the boat by using prop torque is to line up the boat's approach to the slip. If you have positioned the boat correctly, the boat can only move in a certain direction, and if it moves in that direction, the boat will move into the slip. That's how you can back a fixed-prop boat into a slip, and it's how you can rotate it almost within it's own length.

The bad news is that a C250 sailor needs to learn more sophisticated techniques for maneuvering a boat. The good news is that, when you move up to a bigger, inboard-powered boat with a fixed prop, or when you charter such a boat, you'll already know the techniques that you'll need to maneuver it.

There's an excellent discussion of the use of propwalk, with graphic aids, at http://www.cruising.sailingcourse.com/docking.htm

Edited by - Steve Milby on 12/20/2009 09:55:45

Slider
Deckhand

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USA
7 Posts

Response Posted - 12/21/2009 : 11:23:07

Several years ago, while at the Moorings facility on Tortola, I had some time to kill, so I walked the docks to look at the boats and watch the local guys move the boats around the docks.

One of the things I immediately noticed is that those guys are really good at moving big sailboats boats by themselves. Another thing was that they would use the motor for most of the docking work, there wasn't alot of tying on and using lines to swing the boats around (since they were doing it by themselves for the most part). I also noticed they tended to thrust the engine in a series of "pops" to scoot the boat around, when needed.

I have used this technique with very good success since then. I found that by just briefly thrusting the engine, then throttle back, I can get the boat to move sideways even though I am not really moving forward or backwards very far. It takes a little practice to see how your boat reacts, but it does work.

Also, your comment above indicated:

"I always ask for a slip where I have to oppose the wind and current getting out. Way I figure, I can always get in and use the Randy-o-matic line to catch a cleat on my way in."

This is pretty much the opposite of my experience. I find it much easier to control a docking situation when I head into the wind or current as I approach the dock. That way you can always slow your forward momentum by just letting off the throttle. If you dock with the wind or current to your back, there is no way to stop the forces of nature pushing you into the dock, neighbors boat, fuel dock, etc., which could cause some interesting docking side shows.

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zebra50
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408 Posts

Response Posted - 12/21/2009 : 17:28:59

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Arlyn Stewart
 Hi Dave and Jay...

Jay, your pic caught my eye. Is that a 1st generation beaching rudder or is it angled back somewhat that isn't discernible in the picture?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
It is a 1st gen beach rudder-original issue for the 1998 250. I did modify it so that the Edson steering rudder plate would allow for beaching as the dealer bolted it through.

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Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 12/21/2009 : 18:14:50

Ahhhh, I was thinking you had retro fitted your rudder to discover that my mental data base was bad. I'd thought all '98 model boats were shipped with the 2nd generation rudder.

Very likely you have a very early '98 model as the 2nd generation rudder was released in the winter of '98 as that is when I upgraded.

It opened the door for me to cruise on the Great Lakes. I otherwise had my boat ready for a '97 cruise but believed the rudder inadequate and was in communication with Gerry Douglas about it. Fortunately in '97, we were able to borrow a C30 to cruise on but it sold between the '97 and '98 seasons.

I take it you have found the 1st generation adequate or are at least making it work. If I were racing in light air, it would be my choice as it doesn't have much drag. I expect it keeps you very honest with a reefing discipline.

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zebra50
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Response Posted - 12/25/2009 : 08:37:57

Arlyn
It could be an early 98, I bought it from a dealer in Nov from the boat show here in St Louis, dont know how long he may have had it. It came loaded-stern seats, 135 Jib etc. I have added a lot to it since, most from here on the tech area. Love the beach rudder for shallow water and beaching etc. Sail at Lake Carlyle in IL., big lake but not like the Greats of course. I dont do any racing but lots of long day cruising with stops for swimming and eating. Have had very little trouble with this boat. Only siginificant problem was water leak into the bilge which came from the bolt placement on the ballast plug.

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cwstrang
1st Mate

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USA
78 Posts

Response Posted - 01/07/2010 : 12:52:41

Vern:
I know what you mean about white knuckles! I sail on the Columbia River and my slip is perpendicular to the flow of the river and the distant from the stern of my boat to the boats in slips just across from me is barely the width of my boat. I have only had my boat in the slip since May of last year. In May the current in the Columbia was running fast enough that as soon as I started to back out of my slip the current caught the winged keep and swung me out stern first and I had to back my way out to open water which wasn’t all that bad. Getting back to the slip running against the current the river actually helped swing the boat into the slip. I had a whole different set of problems later in the summer when the currently really slowed down I couldn’t get enough steerage out of the rudder once I started out of the slip and several times made contact with my neighbors fortunately without damage but oh the nerves were rattled. I have a 15 hp Honda and have tried to turn it manually with some success but it’s difficult to do and key on eye on where you are in close quarters. I may look into a hard link to the engine and rudder. My confidence is shaken enough now to where I don’t feel comfortable single handing and that was my primary reason for using a slip.

Craig
04 Catalina 250WK
Three Bs
St. Helens OR

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 01/07/2010 : 13:37:21

Hey Craig, The goal should be to reduce the overload so that concentration can be on what is critical. If busy trying to manhandle the motor, hand the tiller or wheel and watch what is happening to the boat and fending off objects all at the same time presents a nervous challenge, remember the rest of us have been there.

In my quest to make the process easier and safer, it seemed the mental and physical overload had to be dealt with. There were simply too many demands for my actions that there wasn't enough time and mental abilities left for proper observation and thought about how to make the process go smoother and safer.

That is the condition that prompted the soft link. Once the engine and rudder were connected, the overload problem was all but eliminated. It was easy then to stay in observation mode and not get distracted by turning the motor manually. The process went from nightmare to a predictable task.

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dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 01/11/2010 : 12:47:12

Someone will probably make a mint if they can figure out how to get more rudder angle out of a wheel steered C250.

Max rudder on a C250 (wheel)

Edited by - dlucier on 01/11/2010 12:48:19

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 01/11/2010 : 15:22:12

I have never found the rudder angle of the wheel version 250 to be an issue at all. That applies to general sailing and docking.

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superbob
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Response Posted - 01/11/2010 : 19:15:07

I have to agree with Don's post on rudder angle not cutting it on my WK 250 wheel steering. It's a real issue and dictates taking the OB tiller in hand when needed for sharp turns. The steering cable/chain has been adjusted to factory specs by a professional and rudder angle is still a fairly large problem. That applies to general sailing and docking. This performance in the 250 has at best been disappointing.

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JohnP
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Response Posted - 01/12/2010 : 15:58:10

As Steve mentioned above, there are ways to handle the boat with a boat hook or spring lines when approaching or leaving a dock. Once in a while the wind is howling at my dock and I'm singlehanding, so I head out of the slip bow first at low speed with a centered tiller, and I climb up front and hold a dock line around one of the pilings to turn the boat into the wind. It's easy.

Maybe these diagrams will help you in approaching or leaving a dock using spring lines:

.
.
.

.
.
.
Here is a fancy way to dock using 2 stern lines and an anchor. It's called a Med moor, and is good to know in the odd chance that you need it:

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Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 01/12/2010 : 17:35:09

The original design small boat steering system used on the 250 had a problem that if the rudder was put hard over to starboard, the rigid shaft end crimped to the flex cable could protrude beyond its jacket and when trying to center would hang against the cable shoulder.

Edson sent a fix consisting of a turn limiter plate that fitted to the transom cutout plate inside the hull. When Edson changed from a single cable to two cable system, the new design did not provide for arc compensation and I suspect that the turn limitation plate was left in the design to limit the degree of center dead band.

My boat doesn't have the turn limitation plate and uses an open wire conversion kit that provides a great deal of rudder travel but I still wouldn't give up using the soft link for docking.

As I've a fair amount of time on a C30, let me quickly say the C30 was far easier to dock than a C250. I've never been on a C25 except during raft ups.

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cwstrang
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 01/13/2010 : 17:22:00

Arlyn: Thanks you are correct; overload. Are soft or hard links available off the shelf or they a custom build on each boat?

Craig

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 01/13/2010 : 19:50:00

The soft link is far too easy and simple to do that there is really nothing to market. There is at least one commercial unit called EZ Steer.

The [url="http://pages.suddenlink.net/arlyn/sailing/softlink.html"]soft link[/url]

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 01/13/2010 19:51:07

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 01/13/2010 : 21:14:44

Craig,
Search the site for hard link or soft link, there are many-many discussions about this. I built a hard link for my original engine, which worked beautifully. When I installed my Tohatsu the geometry was all screwed up and I've gone through and rejected three different attempts at a new hard link. I may well reconsider the soft link, but I've got one more idea for a hybrid that I'm going to look at over the winter.

We too are on a river, and getting back into the slip has always been a trick. Fortunately we now have a down river slip, which is easier to hit than the upriver ones.

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cwstrang
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 01/15/2010 : 10:40:06

David:
Thanks I have done some searching and actually haven't found much. My slip is erpendicular to the river current and I have to exit with the river current and return against the current. My biggest worry is the lack of width I have from the stern of my boat in my slip to my neighbor’s boat across the way. I feel like I barely have a boat length to move in. I do like Arlyn soft link approach and will give that a try. Thanks. Craig

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 01/15/2010 : 11:26:42

Craig, Here are a bunch of links (hah!) to various projects folks have done, both hard & soft.

http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16477& SearchTerms=hard,link

http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15567

http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20222& SearchTerms=hardlink

http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/search.asp?mode=DoIt

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