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Pursuit Races... Love/Hate

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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/19/2009 : 13:57:57

Do you like your PHRF applied at the end of a race or the beginning?

Every year we have one Pursuit Race at our club, and while I really like the concept, I don't like the forecast this year.

Light winds early on, building through the day. This means I will start, bob around for while, and then take off just when the big boats are starting.

I guess its the same as when the wind builds from behind in the last leg of a "normal" race, and I catch up to the fleet, but for this race it feels like I'm being double penalized.

Here's hoping Sailflow has bad data.

Last year on this same race, one of the crew on the last boat to start got on the radio and started hailing other boats with advice on how to go faster since he could see them from behind. It really screwed things up for the newbies (myself included), and made the rest of the fleet ready to choke him. I think that guy is on RC this year. Not sure.

Should be an interesting race.

"Iris"
1984 FK/SR #4040
http://frosthaus.blogspot.com/

Take a minute to register your boat with the association!!
http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/owner_questionnaire.htm

Edited by - Prospector on 06/19/2009 13:58:47

windsong
Captain

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USA
318 Posts

Response Posted - 06/19/2009 : 17:44:07

I did a Pursuit Race last month for the Long Bay Sailing Association. A sausage, 6.5 nm for each leg. It was a nice day, but somehow seemed less like racing, I guess because of the staggered start. Because of my phrf, I was the second boat in the fleet to start, and I led all the way to the first buoy. I liked that part. Then came the downwind leg. It was ugly watching those big monsters slide past me, one by one, but it was fun to know that the order in which I finished was the order of the actual finish. Two of the big boats, including a Catalina 375, never caught up with the pack. If you asked one of them what they thought of the format, I think you'd get a VERY negative answer. The 375 gave up and turned on his engine!

Edited by - windsong on 06/19/2009 17:45:47

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5895 Posts

Response Posted - 06/21/2009 : 06:22:04

It could work to your benefit as readily as to your detriment. You could be the one who gets the big wind, and it might fade for the faster boats. You can't do anything about things that amount to "racing luck." I don't worry about such matters as long as I believe the race wasn't specifically designed to favor certain boats, and that kind of dirty trick is extremely rare. Nobody likes to be "homered" by an RC that favors the locals. With that exception, you have to accept whatever wind and weather the gods throw at you. Do your best and have fun, however the race turns out.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 06/21/2009 : 09:16:05

We used to run our Moonlight Regatta on a pursuit basis. Our probem with that is the variable wind on the lake - the start times were determined using the whole course (about 14 miles)and if the wind dropped around 10 p.m. and the course had to be shortened, all the times were way off.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 06/21/2009 : 14:55:09

We do one a year - The race also has only a first place - no runner up or third. Many quit after being passed.

I think it is an interesting approach and don't mind once or twice a year. ( I think levels in youngstown NY does an entire regatta this way)

The big beef many have is that the starting line is no longer fair for all. Some guys start alone, some have 4 boats, etc. Port tacking the fleet, so to speak, when you're the only boat that starts for a 2 minute stretch can make a big difference.

Edited by - Champipple on 06/23/2009 04:52:03

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2009 : 06:45:23

The race was OK. I was really happy with the boat's performance and th erig tuning really paid off.

I was the 2nd boat to start, but because of the weather only 6 or 7 boats raced. I held my position to almost the halfway mark, and then got caught in a dead spot, and sat and watched the fleet pass by.

The lot of us were within striking distance of each other after rounding the island that served as the only mark on the course, but I had rounded inside (thinking buoy tactics) and that was where the wind continued to be lightest longest.

Solidly in 2nd last place, I finally got into the wind that was building and worked my way back to the start line.

On the way I caught the boat that had been the leader for most of th erace, but everyone else had passed him too. The boat that was behind me at the island ended up DNF. Newfie Screach (my Nemesis) took 1st.

The highlight of the race for me though was that I never tacked over 110 deg.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5895 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2009 : 06:52:54

Most people, myself included, would rather race the traditional way, with the handicap added at the end, but the pursuit race has one big advantage - it encourages new, inexperienced racers. Because each boat starts the race on a staggered schedule, based on it's own handicap rating, the starting line is rarely crowded, and new racers aren't so likely to be intimidated by crowded and aggressive starts.

Edited by - on

windsong
Captain

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USA
318 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2009 : 06:53:22

Win or lose, I'm jealous of your day on the water.
Nice job. I'm sure you'll get "Newfie Screach" next time.
I was once told that if you're the kind of person who has to win every time, then sailboat racing is not for you.

Edited by - on

HeelinPatrick
Navigator

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USA
102 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2009 : 11:49:16

I ran a race on Saturday, 8 boats, pursuit. Was figuring on taking 75 minutes, took 120 minutes (winds faded), favoring the low Portsmouth boats. Top 4 boats finished within 10 minutes of each other, so not too bad. Shifting winds and motorboats on the lake play big factors too (marks are like drifting boat magnents).

This race is for fun, and certainly isn't a serious race. One guy buzzed the dock mid-race to pick up an extra crew member. Anyhow, we sometimes can fudge the start times a little if you know their boat is consistantly slow or fast, since not hardcore racing. I'm always one to 'change it up' if nothing else, and gives a different perspective, can see what others are doing as pass or get passed. I would think maybe do a pursuit 10-20% of the time?

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 07/12/2009 : 20:35:26

Our club does its weekly club racing on Wednesday evenings during the summer (followed by a cookout the 1st Wednesday each month) and uses the pursuit start method, on the honor system, as it is very difficult to get people to staff the committee boat and do all of the time adjustments each week. We almost always start at the no wake buoys for our marina's cove, and one skipper will agree to be the official starter. We have a standard course and an alternate longer one for very windy days. It works fairly well. you are right, the starting line is much less intimidating for new sailors. Most Wednesdays we'll have 12-15 boats out there.

Edited by - on

jbkayaker
Captain

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USA
299 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2010 : 17:49:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
.....

Last year on this same race, one of the crew on the last boat to start got on the radio and started hailing other boats with advice on how to go faster since he could see them from behind. It really screwed things up for the newbies (myself included), and made the rest of the fleet ready to choke him. I think that guy is on RC this year. Not sure.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Getting outside help while you are racing is against the rules of racing. The guy giving advice on the radio should have been told to stop.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2010 : 20:53:09

I agree the guy should stop, however utilizing unsolicited outside help or advice is NOT against the rules of sailing. (41.d) 41. A boat shall not receive help form any outside source except ...d. unsolicited information from a disinterested source, which may be another boat in the same race. (disinterested has been defined in appeal as pretty much anyone not on your boat.)

PS - the post you replied to was from last year

Edited by - on

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2010 : 07:36:35

The main advantage of the Australian Pursuit is that you avoid the "mosh pit" at the starting line which is a bit intimidating to someone new to racing keel boats like myself. On Wednesdays our club does normal starts, on Sundays we have a smaller fleet doing pursuit. I did well in the one race I've entered this year, finishing 3rd overall and 2nd in B fleet.

As an aside, I feel like those Mcgregor 26's have an error in their PRHF. :)

Edited by - on

SailCO26
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2010 : 08:16:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by PCP777
 As an aside, I feel like those Mcgregor 26's have an error in their PRHF. :)<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Which series?

We've had a few 26D's (PHRF 222) around here that actually do rather well. I wont even offer my opinion of the 26X's on this family-oriented forum.

btw, I HATE pursuit races.

RC nightmares, and the crowded start line is half of the fun.

Of course, I'd much rather race OD but I'd have to buy a J/22 (sigh...)

Jim

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2010 : 08:48:47

Here's my view from a race committee perspective

As a PRO (albeit one with a very soon to expire certification)- I don't mind the pursuit starts one bit - they are easier than regular races by far. 1. The course never gets shortened or changed. That means no wind monitoring after the initial line set. Essentially start it and go to the finish line. 2. Over early is easy to call - at most you have a small fleet starting. 3. scoring is what it is - you finish in order.

VS a re- 5 fleets of varying boats and lengths - so the line may need to change in length between fleets. Wind needs to be constantly monitored at the weather mark and at the boat, and elsewhere on the course. The new mark needs to go in with enough time to notify all fleets that a mark has changed - before the first fleet is done going downwind. the new mark has to be at the same distance in case some boats haven't yet started so you have to coordinate the GPS distances coordinate new start info on the RC boat. If the wind dies you shorten the course. Move boats, maybe a mark, get a signal boat in place with the appropriate signage and soundage. Then you have to score everything - which means either entering the finishing times into a system or actually doing the match yourself - after a day on the water in the sun - while everyone else is at the tent having the a beverage.

As for the 26 D's - you'll need to take that up with your local phrf association. 26x's - Take that up with your local fishing and water skiing fleets.

Edited by - on

SailCO26
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2010 : 09:18:22

So maybe I'm completely off in the pursuit world.

Dont you have to monitor the start/OCS for each boat?
Dont finishes get crazy?
Granted you cant change/shorten the course, what DO you do when the wind dies?

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2010 : 11:04:58

THE START - Yes you do have to monitor the start, but that's usually one big list with start times - in my case put together by the fleet captain or captains. Because your only dealing with only a handful of boats at one time you only have to look for one boat to be OCS at a time.

I guess if the course were rather small, say less than 2 miles, you might have boats starting within seconds of each other which would make things a bit interesting, but the pursuit races are usually pretty long distances. Ours are over 8 miles. Using the I flag and adding a "keep clear of the start box inside 5 minutes" to the SI's helps because the boats police themselves. Skippers don't want the added penalty of having to go around a long starting line when OCS. Announcing everything over the radio assists greatly and is almost a must with a pursuit start.

FINISHES - The finishes are not normally as crazy as you would think. In theory everybody should be get to the finish line at the same time. That would be a mess. In reality, the wind changes, people make tactical errors, PHRF ratings aren't 100% perfect, etc. They finish just like normal - staggered.

IF THE WIND DIES - It depends on the Sailing instructions - In most cases, get a good book out and standby on the Race committee Channel. Or alternatively call the whole thing off.

Edited by - on

SailCO26
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2010 : 11:15:22

Interesting. Ok, with that in mind maybe now I just mildly dislike pursuit starts.
:)

Edited by - on

klassi1
1st Mate

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88 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2010 : 12:46:01

But pursuit races miss all the great fun at the starts. Swapping gelcoat, yelling and cursing, forcing your buddy up over the line early.

Pursuit racing has it's place. But it wouldn't be my preferred racing every week.

Edited by - on

nebraskac25
Deckhand

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USA
15 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2010 : 20:04:45

This has been great reading everyone's perspectives on this. We started doing a few pursuit races last year as a way to get new sailors into racing. Being in on a small lake in the midwest, we don't have a big fleet to work with, but this proved to be a great way to introduce people to the idea of racing.

After the first event, we started to add/subtract from starting times to equalize the fleet. As one of the more competitive members with a faster boat, (harmony 22 at the time) I enjoyed chasing people down much more than a standard race where I was only concerned with my own boat speed.

That being said, I believe there are too many variables to use it as the basis for a competitive regatta or series. And, it takes a PRO that really knows what he is doing, (or a few engineers with too much time on their hands) to establish start times.

Edited by - on

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 04/30/2010 : 09:43:52

Here's the starting line for last Wednesday's race. We were on a C-27 and didn't have a good race but we did have fun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E63E-ri6Mo8

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2010 : 22:03:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by nebraskac25
 This has been great reading everyone's perspectives on this. We started doing a few pursuit races last year as a way to get new sailors into racing. Being in on a small lake in the midwest, we don't have a big fleet to work with, but this proved to be a great way to introduce people to the idea of racing.

After the first event, we started to add/subtract from starting times to equalize the fleet. As one of the more competitive members with a faster boat, (harmony 22 at the time) I enjoyed chasing people down much more than a standard race where I was only concerned with my own boat speed.

That being said, I believe there are too many variables to use it as the basis for a competitive regatta or series. And, it takes a PRO that really knows what he is doing, (or a few engineers with too much time on their hands) to establish start times.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The downside to the pursuit race IMHO is that the more experienced adn serious racers tend to have lower PHRF boats, and so get teh advantage of the late start.

Starting behind the fleet give the opportunity for them to see where th ewind is and isn't workign for the boats ahead. It doesn't take much for an experienced guy to read what is going on ahead of him, adn avoid th eerrors the rest of teh fleet has a greater chance of making.

Our club has gone from 2 pursuit race to a half dozen or so. I'm not a big fan of them.

Edited by - on

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 07/01/2010 : 07:25:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Data Recovery
 Hi,
I am also interested in the Pursuit race.
There is no reason love that reason and no choice to hate it.

Thanks
Britt
[url="http://www.datadoctor.biz"]Photo Recovery[/url]

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

SPAM?

Prospector, your point is valid about the lower PHRF boats seeing what's happening before they start.

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 07/01/2010 : 11:21:32

In recent years our club's racing population has dwindled to six boats with a PHRF below 290 and about twelve above. We run several race courses on Lake Superior ranging from 18 to 26 and miles and about 4 courses on Portage Lake (inland)ranging from 5 to 7 miles. On Lake Superior, boats over 290 obvioulsy started early in the day with little or no wind and bobbed around until the lower PHRF boats started. Of course that's when the land breeze picked up and they blew everyone away, handycap or not. Very frustrating for the majority of us. Wind was not a problem on the inland lake courses but the racing population still declined.

Here's what the club did to salvage our Lake Superior regata series.

The racing boats are broken out into an "A" fleet under 290 PHRF, and a "B" fleet over 290. The "A" fleet races to a known turning point - bouy or island. The "B" fleet races to a GPS waypoint, established at a distance out from the start based on the each fleets PHRF average. boats in each fleet races against each other and is awarded first (1 point), second (2 points), and third (3 points)places. At the end of the series of eight races (two per month)a fleet champion is determined and an overall series champion based on the lowest point total in both fleets. We do not use a race committee in these races-everything is on your honor. For obvious reasons the number of big boats has remained the same but we have gained two or three boats over 290 PHRF class.

We use the same system in our Sunday Portage Lake inland series but it just isn't the same on short courses. I like it on the big lake and hate it on the smaller inland lake.

Our Weds night beer can series uses traditional triangular courses with a start committee and handicapping. These are really popular. I like them best, but have been unable to race recently because of work requirements. Can't wait to retire next June. The number of boats has remained relatively constant at about 6-12 over the years.

Edited by - on

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