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Getting under sail best practices

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Peregrine
Admiral

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Response Posted - 04/24/2009 : 18:13:50

"Does anyone here use the topping lift ot put more shape in your sail on a light air day? Lift the weight of the boom so the sail is less flat."

No.
I think it's counter productive.
I ease the outhaul ease the main halyard and sit to leward.
However...
I am lucky, there was a new, never used, drifter on the boat when I bought it.
In the worst of the doldrums, I can ghost along.
I rig it with a line on the tack run back to the cockpit so I can drop it without going forward when, and if, the wind picks up.

Edited by - Peregrine on 04/24/2009 21:13:46

Even Chance
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Response Posted - 04/25/2009 : 00:43:47

It's only counterproductive if it doesn't work.

Try it: it DOES work. And, if you do some google research, you'll see that using the topping lift as a control to create lift is a pretty common (and recommended) technique.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 04/25/2009 : 08:51:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Even Chance
 ...if you do some google research, you'll see that using the topping lift as a control to create lift is a pretty common (and recommended) technique.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I tried, and found nothing but discussions on spinnaker pole topping lifts--I couldn't find one mention of using a topping lift for mainsail shape. I've never seen anyone do it on the racecourse (unless it was boats behind us), including the Americas Cup. Google "outhaul" and it's a whole different story.

Where's Derek Crawford? I'd like to hear from the guy with the professional trimmers.

(Probably out racing.)

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 04/25/2009 08:53:46

Even Chance
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Response Posted - 04/25/2009 : 17:51:57

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I tried, and found nothing but discussions on spinnaker pole topping lifts--I couldn't find one mention of using a topping lift for mainsail shape. I've never seen anyone do it on the racecourse (unless it was boats behind us), including the Americas Cup. Google "outhaul" and it's a whole different story.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=4220

http://www.j24class.org/IJCAForums/tabid/72/forumid/3/postid/2384/view/topic/Default.aspx

http://archives.sailboatowners.com/pviewarch.htm?fno=9&sku=2000118144728.56&browse=T&g=%5Bg%5D&ptl=Tension%20on%20the%20topping%20lift%20while%20the%20main%20is%20set%3F

diagram, p. 117, Royce's Sailing Illustrated, V. I, 1993

And, of course, there's the radical idea of actually trying it next time you're in really light air. If it doesn't work, you can always dig up this post and say you told me so.

Edited by - Even Chance on 04/25/2009 17:54:01

Peregrine
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Response Posted - 04/25/2009 : 18:58:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Even Chance
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I tried, and found nothing but discussions on spinnaker pole topping lifts--I couldn't find one mention of using a topping lift for mainsail shape. I've never seen anyone do it on the racecourse (unless it was boats behind us), including the Americas Cup. Google "outhaul" and it's a whole different story.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=4220

Nothing here says the topping lift is used to "shape" the sail to go faster.

http://www.j24class.org/IJCAForums/tabid/72/forumid/3/postid/2384/view/topic/Default.aspx

Nope. Nothing here.

http://archives.sailboatowners.com/pviewarch.htm?fno=9&sku=2000118144728.56&browse=T&g=%5Bg%5D&ptl=Tension%20on%20the%20topping%20lift%20while%20the%20main%20is%20set%3F

Gee, am I missing something?
Topping lifts are mentioned but not as sail shaping for speed or efficiancy.

diagram, p. 117, Royce's Sailing Illustrated, V. I, 1993

Now here may be the idea you are getting at, "Going Downwind" they show a loose footed main easing the outhaul and raising the topping lift.
The picture is of a cat type boat with no headsail (Mast way forward like a Nonsuch or Freedom) and the main is not attached to the boom in any way. In other words they are showing a completly different rig than the C25 or any other "sloop", running before the wind. So...
Yes IF you are in a CAT boat running before the wind you could use the topping to turn the main into a spinnaker.

I'm sorry, using the topping lift, which can only raise the boom with our boats (or any sloop) as a method to shape the sail is;
"counter productive".
There is no reason to artificially raise the boom to shape your mainsail.
It may work for you.
Good luck with it.
But insisting it is a viable method of sailing on a thread where a new sailor is looking for advice is IMO not helpful.


And, of course, there's the radical idea of actually trying it next time you're in really light air. If it doesn't work, you can always dig up this post and say you told me so.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - Peregrine on 04/25/2009 19:47:02

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/25/2009 : 21:44:45

Sorry Brooke... I couldn't find anything there (except a vague reference from one Hunter owner who I'd probably debate). Tensioning the topping lift twists off the top of the sail--that's a simple fact. Easing the outhaul while maintaining tension on the vang to keep the leach tight creates the "pocket" you want in light air (watch the telltales), and downwind, keeps the maximum sail area presented to the wind. (A loose foot is best for this purpose.) Google will give you pages of references on that.

Edited by - on

Even Chance
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Response Posted - 04/26/2009 : 06:02:06

In the forum thread, read Clambeach's posting: Most folks only use them to hold the boom up when not sailing, but they can also be used to lift the boom in very light air, giving the mainsail more shape.

j24 thread, second posting: They can help take tension off of the leech on light air days.

Sailboatowners thread, second posting: The one exception (there usually is at least one) is in very light air, when you might want to induce a fuller shape to the main than the air will support. 

It seems that your copy of Royce and mine have different page numbers -- the pic in mine shows hardening the topping lift and easing the outhaul in light air.

As for misguiding a new sailor -- it's hardly going to hurt anyone to try this in light air, and, as I said, if it doesn't work on your boat, ditch the idea. All I can say is that in light air, my boat speeds up when sailing lower than a close reach by hardening the lift a little and giving the main more depth.

Jeez Louise. You'd think this were a life or death issue.

Edited by - Even Chance on 04/26/2009 06:15:49

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 04/26/2009 : 10:05:56

I hope I wasn't contributing to an argument--I was trying to have a discussion--sail shape seems to be part science, part art. Prospector asked for opinions about using the topping lift to make the sail "less flat"... The following is from Monkeybird02 last weekend, and piqued my interest:

"But the topping lift was still tight, so i just took out my knife and cut the rope where it runs thru the topping lift. The boom dropped down another 8-12". Holy crap. The sail is so much flatter now. I can move in very light wind now. The boat will do things it didn't do before."

8-12" might be a bit extreme, but it reinforced my belief, mostly based on playing with Lasers (loose-footed), where in light air, easing the out-haul and leaving the vang on (a relaxed foot but not a relaxed leach) seemed to fill the sail best and generate the most speed. It might be that in very light air with the outhaul tensioned, lifting the boom just a tiny bit is better than having tension on the leach. I think any more than that creates twist (which I don't consider to be the same as fullness) that is your enemy. I think easing the outhaul (if you have that option) produces a more effective shape than lifting the boom. But the basic condition and shape of the sail itself is probably as big a variable as anything. As you say, Brooke, try them both in steady light air (if there is such a thing) and use what works.

Edited by - on

jerlim
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Response Posted - 04/27/2009 : 16:15:11

...wouldn't the influence depend on whether or not/how much the main is loose footed?

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 04/27/2009 : 20:28:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by jerlim
 ...wouldn't the influence depend on whether or not/how much the main is loose footed?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I'm not sure I understand your question...

Edited by - on

Peregrine
Admiral

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Response Posted - 04/27/2009 : 20:43:19

"I think easing the outhaul (if you have that option) produces a more effective shape than lifting the boom."

I think that's right but...
If you have opted for a full battened main you will find that in light air the sail cannot take a natural shape it will remain too flat, so you will have to find some way to induce shape and lift into the sail.
A conventional battened sail will ease into a more rounded shape delivering more needed lift.

Edited by - on

PCP777
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Response Posted - 05/05/2009 : 14:38:57

So when you guys have a fresh wind day with more than 10 knots you guys completely undo the topping lift?

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dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 05/05/2009 : 16:00:13

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2009 : 19:03:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by PCP777
 So when you guys have a fresh wind day with more than 10 knots you guys completely undo the topping lift?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">My topping lift was adjusted so it went just slightly slack with the sail hoisted, mainsheet hardened, and boom centered. When I dropped the sail, it held the boom high enough to clear the bimini (and my 5'9" head). My personal theory, disputed by some here, is that while the topping lift can change the shape of the main, it changes it in the wrong way for light air performance.

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PCP777
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Response Posted - 05/06/2009 : 11:10:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by PCP777
 So when you guys have a fresh wind day with more than 10 knots you guys completely undo the topping lift?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">My topping lift was adjusted so it went just slightly slack with the sail hoisted, mainsheet hardened, and boom centered. When I dropped the sail, it held the boom high enough to clear the bimini (and my 5'9" head). My personal theory, disputed by some here, is that while the topping lift can change the shape of the main, it changes it in the wrong way for light air performance.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

OK, stuff like topping lifts etc is new to me, the former owner had it tight. On my last sail I slackened it and it seemed to help my sail shape. Then before I took down the main I slightly tightened it again.

Thanks!

My next mission is to figure out how the jiffy reef system works. Friday is supposed to be sustained winds of 20+.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 05/06/2009 : 18:08:12

Peter, with your tall rig, pulling the boom up with the sail down is more important than it was for me. As for 20+, you could try your jib alone--it gives you nice performance with the least heal (due to more area down low). The main alone is a pig. A reefed main balances the rig better, giving you some weather helm. But I used the jib (genoa) alone a number of times in blustery weather--it helped that mine was on a roller.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 05/06/2009 18:08:36

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 05/06/2009 : 18:22:05

A 20+ sustained day is probably not a good time to figure out the jiffy reefing.

Also, check the archives for postings about two-line reefing. It is simple and produces a better sail shape than single-line. If reefing is something you will need to do fairly often then I recommend the two-line solution.

Like Dave said, on really windy days sailing on jib alone is another good option.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/06/2009 : 20:05:03

I agree on two lines--you can tighten the tack toward the mast before you tighten the clew, so you get the best foot tension without breaking or pulling the lower slug out of the slot. Also, do you have mast gate plates? (See Catalina Direct.) They are helpful for reefing, as they let the sail drop as close to the boom as possible without having slugs fall out of the gate.

Edited by - on

JimB517
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Response Posted - 05/07/2009 : 06:28:59

In some conditions, especially light wind and you are heading upwind on or a reach, taking up a few inches on the topping lift will help you get the twist you need to get that top main telltale flying. The reason you need twist is called gradient wind, there is more true wind up high which means there is more apparant wind down low. The bottom of the main needs to be sheeted in tighter than the top. Playing with your main halyard, backstay adjuster, outhaul, and yes topping lift (last resort) can get you this twist.

Most of you would be motoring by this time, however.

Twist can also help you depower in big air but I prefer getting the sail flat and taking a reef.

Edited by - on

PCP777
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Response Posted - 05/08/2009 : 09:32:03

I appreciate all the great advice. I think I'll run just a jib at first and see how heavy it is. What's funny is none of the foresail bags are marked, I have like three different ones. I don't suppose there's a spot on the sail that tells if it's a 110, 130 etc?

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dmpilc
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Response Posted - 05/08/2009 : 09:58:41

Sails are rarely marked. You'll need to do your own measurements, then take a Sharpie and label the bags. You could also label each tack or clew. In my case, the 110 has a heavier set of sheets that stay attached to it (came with the boat that way) in addition to the bag being labeled. The foot on a 110 will be just under 13 ft. and the foot on a 150 will be about 17 ft.
You may already know this: The labels 110, 135, and 150 for a headsail refer to percentages of a sail's "LP" dimension compared to the boat's "J" dimension, which, on a C-25 is 10.5 ft. The LP is a perpendicular line from the sail's luff to the clew. So, for the C-25 a 110 (J times 110 percent) has a LP of 11.5 ft., a 135's LP is 14.2, and the 150's LP is 15.8 ft.

Edited by - dmpilc on 05/08/2009 10:02:00

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 05/08/2009 : 10:31:18

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimB517
 In some conditions, especially light wind and you are heading upwind on or a reach, taking up a few inches on the topping lift will help you get the twist you need to get that top main telltale flying.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">But doesn't that result in your lower telltales streaming upward? Going upwind, you don't want that. With a short mast and small roach like yours, I'd worry more about the larger part of the sail getting the best flow. Off the wind, keep the boom down (like that Cape Dory).

Edited by - on

JimB517
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Response Posted - 05/08/2009 : 10:36:47

Ya do what you have to do to get them ALL streaming. Sometimes the topping lift helps, not always. It seems to me to relieve a lot of the leech in the middle of the sail. Full twist at the top is best achieved by easing the main halyard.

Edited by - on

Champipple
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Response Posted - 05/08/2009 : 11:17:17

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 

Does anyone here use the topping lift ot put more shape in your sail on a light air day? Lift the weight of the boom so the sail is less flat.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Absolutely, and it isn't counter productive. John's catboat example leads into a good point though. It is more effective in boats where the main is the main source of propulsion, not the jib. (eg. Brooke's reference to J-24's)

Only harden the topper to keep the boom from pulling down on the main. Any more than that and you do negatively influence sail shape. Don't forget to release it on the downwind. If you are just cruising I would recommend expending the same amount of energy to go grab another coldie from the icebox.

As for the initial question: Have crew with you the first few times. Instruct them at the dock as to the sequence of events. That way you can keep the boat into the wind, don't have to ease the mainsheet until the last few feet of the hoist, can leave the topper on as well until the end and can also keep an eye on the sail as it goes up.

Put it up at the dock on a light day as well and see what has to be done. But then, as recommended, drop it and go out under power.

Edited by - on

Even Chance
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Response Posted - 05/08/2009 : 12:56:52

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