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Getting under sail best practices

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Blue Nose
1st Mate

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67 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/23/2009 : 06:35:55

Since I am realizing there is alot of experience and good advice on this board I would to hear of your best practices for getting under sail. I am new to the Catalina 25 and have roller furling on the headsail. The main has to be raised at the mast for now. What sequence do you advise for this setup? On light air days it doesn't seem to matter much but the the greater the wind the greater the challenge. Any tricks, tips , sequences you use would be much appreciated. Also feel free to talk about dropping the sails too!

Thanks for your advice!

1986 C-25 FK Tall Rig
"Blue Nose"
Mobjack Bay, Virginia

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2009 : 06:46:51

When raising a main you should have the boom vang and the mainsheet completely off; running free/uncleated. It helps to tie off the tiller after you head into the wind so the boat will stay on the wind longer, but If your boom is free to swing then the main stays "luffing into the wind" even if the hull does fall off a little. That gives you enough time to get to the mast, haul and cleat the halyard and get back to the cockpit. Remember the boat needs to fall off all the way to a beam reach before it will start "sailing" if your mainsheet is completely off so you really have a lot of time before things get weird. After you get back to the cockpit you can decided whether to take it back into the wind and go back to tighten the halyard but after a sailing few times you will figure out the right halyard tension for your conditions and get it right the first time. SO now your sailing with your main up, unfurl your headsail bury the rail and have fun.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2009 : 06:59:36

If your boat is head to wind at the dock, and it is not blowing too hard, you should be able to raise the main before leaving the dock; otherwise motor out to clear water and turn head to wind to raise it. Then unfurl the headsail. For the main halyard, do you have a winch on the mast? Mine does. First, I make sure that the vang and main sheet are loose. Then I will raise the halyard as much as possible by hauling it hand over hand, then take three wraps around the winch for the last bit and cleat it off. After the main is set, I will kill the motor and raise the jib or genoa. Take downs are the reverse. The headsail comes down first.
If you have to motor some distance to get to open water, raising/lowering sails can be done while under power shortly before you get to the open water.

Edited by - on

Peregrine
Admiral

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830 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2009 : 07:47:04

In addition to Franks post, leave the dock or mooring with your halyard attached and just one sail tie around the main with a slip knot.
For now be conservative and get to open water with no traffic, let the engine slowly push you into the wind with a some sort of tie/bungee etc. on the tiller to hold you into the wind.
Go forward and raise the main and get back to the cockpit, fall off slightly, unfurl the genoa but don't sheet it hard and get under way without a lot of speed, then deal with the engine, sutting it off and raising it. Then sheet the main and genoa and go sailing.
Constantly scan the horizon for traffic while doing these chores.
The same coming home. Be conserative find a calm spot away from traffic and slow down. Get the engine down and running, head into the wind tie off the tiller and furl the genoa then lower and tie the main even if it's sloppy you can clean it up latter.
Like a plane the take off and landing are the potentional places for mishaps.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2009 : 08:10:56

I agree on clear water--no sails up in the marina or at the launching dock--too many potential surprises.

You can pull the jib out and furl it while under way--in fact that works better than when luffing. The main is different--you want to remain luffed up until you're back in the cockpit, so logically that goes up first and comes down last. If you have crew, give them a target directly to windward and let them steer while you go to the mast. If you don't, adjust your outboard so the tiller is competely neutral, untouched, and you're traveling in a straight line directly at the wind. Then you don't really need to tie off the tiller as long as the outboard is making a couple of knots. I find it's easier to get the outboard just right than the tiller. (And if you forget the step below, the rudder will let you head back into the wind--a little forgiveness.)

The critical step to not forget, as mentioned above, is to uncleat the mainsheet and even pull it loose a little so the sail won't fill until you're settled back in the cockpit and fall off to your course. If you use the pigtail on the backstay to hold the boom...... well, don't.

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2009 : 08:22:42

I think it would a good idea to try to follow all of the advice above!

What often goes wrong:
- The boat swings around from "in irons" to one side or the other as you get the mainsail partly up. If you have not used Sailcote lubricant on your mainsail track or slugs the main can stick and be almost impossible to hoist with the sail fully out to one side. Then you can cut the nylon slides right off when you continue to raise the main.
Solutions: Ask your crew to steer. or stop hoisting, go back to the cockpit and steer back into the wind, and then continue hoisting. Grease your slides.

- Some line is not free (sheet, vang, pigtail, halyard, or others), and you see this in the middle of hoisting the main.
Solutions: Stop and either drop the main or leave it half way, then fix the line, and then point the bow into the wind again and continue.

- The outboard stalls when unattended and the boat drifts off the wind.
Solutions: Depending on wind and current and traffic conditions, either stop hoisting and restart the motor, or drop the main and restart the motor.

Edited by - JohnP on 04/23/2009 11:39:52

Blue Nose
1st Mate

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67 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2009 : 08:25:54

Are you letting the end of the boom come down and rest in the cockpit since it is unclipped from the pigtail? Obviously it will raise into position as the mainsail is raised. Seems like it could beat the cockpit up pretty bad on a windy/shifty day.

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2009 : 08:43:55

What often goes wrong when you drop the main:

- Some line is not free or available or set correctly (halyard, roller furling line, topping lift, sail ties, other stuff), and you have pointed into the wind and have started to drop the main.
Solutions: Leave the sail partly down and quickly free the line or get the item you need. Otherwise, if the delay will be more than 10 seconds, then maintain your course with the sails as they are and fix the problem before continuing to drop the main and furl the jib.

- The main drops well but when you are securing it, either the main or the jib fills and the boat starts sailing away on some other course.
Solutions: Tie down the main or re-furl the jib and then continue.

A bit of encouragement: After you practise a few times you will develop a routine that will become well-choreographed. Have fun!

Edited by - JohnP on 04/23/2009 08:51:06

Peregrine
Admiral

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830 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2009 : 08:45:56

"Are you letting the end of the boom come down and rest in the cockpit since it is unclipped from the pigtail? Obviously it will raise into position as the mainsail is raised. Seems like it could beat the cockpit up pretty bad on a windy/shifty day."

Thats where the topping lift comes in.
See the thread on [url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19581"]"Mainsail Setup Question"[/url]

Underlined words are HOT links.

Edited by - Peregrine on 04/23/2009 08:48:44

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2009 : 08:51:06

WOW - this string is such a example of the knowledge, support and value of this site !

Edited by - jerlim on 04/23/2009 08:52:36

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2009 : 09:04:10

I would hate to single-hand a C-25 without a topping lift. But if I had to, I would absolutely unhook the boom from the pigtail first, then go to the mast. Leaving it hooked invites a very tricky situation if your sail fills. I think (haven't done this on the C-25) I'd pull the sail up until it's about to lift the boom, move back on the cabintop a bit, hoist the boom onto my shoulder (this is speculation now), and then haul the sail to the top. But I've only done something like that on a smaller boat.

Install a topping lift--even a simple one that just comes down from the mast-head to a block and a cleat on the boom. It greatly simplifies hoisting and dropping the main.

Edited by - on

Tom Gauntt
Navigator

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204 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2009 : 09:10:01

I absolutely agree on the advantage of a topping lift. I know there are some cosmic sail trim techniques for which you can you use the topping lift, but for simply setting or dousing the main or setting a reef, the topping lift is one of the most valuable safety devices you can have on a sailboat. If you try to pin the boom to the pigtail while dropping the main and ANYTHING goes awry, you could be in for quite the E-ticket ride. Do not ask me how I know this. Some people have used boom kickers with great success, but I think the topping lift is safer and more dependable.

Edited by - Tom Gauntt on 04/23/2009 09:11:39

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2009 : 10:58:54

Here's what I do when raising sails.

1. With outboard in forward, head to wind, reduce speed to minimum needed to maintain course.

2. Engage autopilot (or crew member or bungee)

3. Slacken mainsheet and vang

4. Raise main sail

5. Disengage autopilot, bear off the wind, trim main

6. Kill and raise outboard

7. Unfurl headsail, and trim.

When dropping sails, I do something a little different than most. When returning to the marina and while still under sail only, I'll drop the main first, flake and secure it, and then put on the cover all the while sailing along on the genoa alone. After the main is put to bed, I'll lower and start my outboard, then furl in the genoa.

As was mentioned, a topping lift will greatly simplify things and it doesn't have to be fancy. I know some who simply run a line of fixed length from the masthead to the end of the boom with a length set so it just goes slack when the main is raised. No muss, no fuss, no having to use the dreaded pigtail. Just set it and forget it.

Edited by - on

Blue Nose
1st Mate

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67 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2009 : 13:46:11

Why would Catalina make a boat without a topping lift? Does anyone know how they intended for the main to be raised without one? That really makes no sense - seems almost negligent to me - especially for a 1986 model.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2009 : 13:52:22

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2009 : 13:57:07

We have the halyards led aft, so our method is a little different than what you will do, but mostly it is the same as what the others have posted here.

It took me about a month to get everything choreographed.

Things we learned:
- DON"T RUSH! Have everythign in place before you leave the slip, and then be methodical once you are on the water.
- Develop a routine, and let everyone share the work.
- We now raise our sails lust beyond the breakwall, where we are still in the windshadow of the marina. No wind at all (most days) and less chance of things going astray.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/24/2009 : 03:41:45

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Blue Nose
 Why would Catalina make a boat without a topping lift?...That really makes no sense - seems almost negligent to me...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

In my opinion, Catalina's use of pigtails seems almost negligent, but it was probably done that way because it's easy and cheap for the factory.

When I got my first sailboat, way back in the pre-internet days, I didn't know squat about sailing (actually, a little less than squat) and I struggled with that pigtail all the while thinking, Son-of-a-B, there's got to be a better way. One would think the first time you forget to unhook it before raising the main would be lesson enough, but unfortunately, being perfect is not always my forte'. Raise your hand if you've ever forgotten to both unclip the pigtail and lower the keel!

Edited by - on

Even Chance
Captain

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USA
393 Posts

Response Posted - 04/24/2009 : 04:20:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Blue Nose
 Why would Catalina make a boat without a topping lift? Does anyone know how they intended for the main to be raised without one? That really makes no sense - seems almost negligent to me - especially for a 1986 model.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Back in the dark ages before I installed a topping lift, I kept the boom attached to the pigtail as I raised the main. I suspect that was a part of Catalina's strategy.

Yes, yes, I know: the danger is that the boat will fall off the wind before you can unclip the pigtail, which will then be ever-so-much harder to unclip. That's exactly why my first modifications to the boat were
- an autopilot to hold the boat into the wind (I recommend making your own wind under power)
- halyards led to the cockpit
- a topping lift

I'm just around the corner from you, in Urbanna. If you'd like to try to get together, I'd be happy to help you learn your boat.

Edited by - Even Chance on 04/24/2009 04:21:06

Peregrine
Admiral

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830 Posts

Response Posted - 04/24/2009 : 07:26:06

In defense of the "pig tale" I use it once I get to the mooring so there is no tension on the topping lift while the boat sits idle.
Have I forgotten to undo it? Rarely because I loosen the mainsheet before raising the main and you can tell the boom is not swinging free.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/24/2009 : 10:53:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Peregrine
 [font=Comic Sans MS][size=2][navy]In defense of the "pig tale" I use it once I get to the mooring so there is no tension on the topping lift while the boat sits idle.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Why? Is there something wrong with having a little tension on a topping lift?

On a mooring, or anywhere I guess, it might better to keep tension on the topping lift when you're away as a backup just in case the backstay parts.

Edited by - on

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 04/24/2009 : 12:04:52

Lazy jacks can also take the place of holding up the boom, in place of the topping lift...not the best way to go...but it works...

Edited by - jerlim on 04/24/2009 12:05:34

Peregrine
Admiral

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830 Posts

Response Posted - 04/24/2009 : 12:32:02

"just in case the backstay parts."

Huh?

Thats a bit of a stretch.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 04/24/2009 : 12:46:58

Seems to me that whether the backstay or the topping lift is holding up the boom, the load is transferred to the top of the mast, and then down the forestay to the bow and down the nast to the compression post. I think the rig takes a lot more strain under sail than it ever will while sitting in the slip.

Does anyone here use the topping lift ot put more shape in your sail on a light air day? Lift the weight of the boom so the sail is less flat.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/24/2009 : 13:50:19

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 Does anyone here use the topping lift ot put more shape in your sail on a light air day? Lift the weight of the boom so the sail is less flat.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">IMHO, it's the wrong shape. Lifting the boom lets air move upward on the sail and twists off the top for less power. Downwind, raising the boom reduces effective area--one big reason for a vang. The right fullness comes from easing the out-haul, best with a loose foot. That way the sail "bends" around a more vertical axis. and the leach can remain fairly tight, keeping the top in play. The same principle is involved in moving the genoa cars forward in light air, tensioning the leach and letting the foot bend.

But that's just a humble $+!nkp*++er's opinion...

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 04/24/2009 14:01:22

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/24/2009 : 14:01:11

If winds are such that the weight of the boom has become a factor, for me its time to fire up the iron genny and call it a day. Nothing I hate more than flopping around aimlessly with the gnats and flies.

Edited by - on

Even Chance
Captain

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USA
393 Posts

Response Posted - 04/24/2009 : 17:29:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
Does anyone here use the topping lift ot put more shape in your sail on a light air day? Lift the weight of the boom so the sail is less flat.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Guilty as charged. Yes, the outboard would generate more speed in winds that light, but some zephyr days you want to sail, even if it's really slow. When the vang's completely off and the outhaul eased, raising the clew can generate some additional lift.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

Edited by - Even Chance on 04/24/2009 17:30:43

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