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Attaching sheets to the Jib?

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 01/08/2009 : 13:29:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Champipple
 Cow Hitch -
Con - Can slip, though rare.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Equally rare are icebergs in the Gulf of Mexico.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Am I thinking of the wrong knot then?

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/08/2009 : 13:45:19

Probably not... Fold the single-line sheet in half, push the fold through the clew, forming a loop, and feed the two long tails (your sheets) through the loop. A slight tug, and it ain't goin' nowhere. After a few months, it ain't comin' off without a fight, either.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 01/08/2009 : 14:20:19

Bowline Pro - Can be tied with one hand...

http://www.truveo.com/Tie-A-Bowline-Knot-With-Only-One-Hand/id/453776226

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/913583/single_handed_bowline/

(Learn to do this while being towed at about 2 or 3 knots - it may be the difference between being recovered or being left behind in a rescue.

Snapshackle Con: The split ring that holds in the tensioned spring that holds the snapshackle closed can catch on lifelines, the sheets, and other things while you are out. once its done that enough times the split ring WILL fail. The retaining pin will gracefully exit the snap shackle land you will be left with a snapless shackle (a $20 piece of steel which is not even functional as a paperweight), and a jib that is sheetless.

To fix this you will have to go on foredeck, and either attach a spare sheet to the jib (with a bowline) until you get things back under control, or douse sail, put a spare snapshackle on your sheet, and then re-raise your sails.

I think the most salty solution is the dutch toggle, but for now I'll stick with my bowlines

Edited by - Prospector on 01/08/2009 14:35:26

SailCO26
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Response Posted - 01/08/2009 : 14:21:13

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 If you consider 25 feet to be a small sailboat, then it's kosher. Otherwise, you're knot is not!

Sorry kids, the loads on a C25 are pretty significant, but if you want to think of your vesel as nothing more than a sailing dinghy that's up to you. At your own risk.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Ok, I probably wouldnt use a cow hitch for headsail sheets on a bluewater boat. Taking a Catalina/Capri25 bluewater sailing, I suspect the knot in my sheets may be kinda low on my "worry" list. And yes, I *do* consider a 25' sailboat to be a "small" sailboat (but not a dinghy). Heck, I still consider a 30'er small-ish.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">First rule of sailing - or at least somewhere near the top - always have backups for backups. If the "Cow Hitch" fails, chafes thru, whatever, you will have nothing on the jib or genny.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I'll agree with the backups for your backups, and everthing should have multiple uses. But there's a line of reason you need to deal with on occasion, too. Do you have multiple halyards to your headsail/mainsail as well? Do you have more than 1 backstay or headstay? Rudder? Mast? Keel?

In my case, we remove/store all the sails every time we park the boat. When we bend 'em on at the start of the day, everything gets inspected (hopefully the crew isn't into TOO many Pre-Race Beers by this point...). While it's possible a sheet could become chafed before it would normally be replaced (or in theory after the sail was hung), 'taint likely. Now that I think back on it, I used the cow hitch on my Cp26 with a roller-furler too (and thinking back further, I'm pretty sure I used it on my Precision21 with rf).

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Every so often it seems like there is a thread which sorta defines who goes where - if you get my drift.

As this site is often considered instructional for newbies - I would like to caution anyone who has not experimented with this technique before and actually trusts it, to consider the tried and true bowline. !<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">By all means, give 'em all a try. That's why people ask questions here, to get a variety of answers. To each his own - do the research and take what you agree with. Based on this thread I'm likely to change to the clove hitch. Been there/done that with the bowline, dont like it on my headsail sheets. Some do, some don't.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">If you need to break it you can - sure beats having to cut your um, sheet? (singular) in an emergency.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">In an emergency, I'm probably not gonna take the time to untie ANY knot. If it needs to come off, it get's the knife - cow, clove, bowline or granny.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Also, the wiki post regarding failure when tension is not equal makes a huge amount of sense if you think about it<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Agreed. But I still say that on my boat that's been old enough to order her own drinks for 7 years, something else is gonna fail long before that cow with unequal tension (probably ME!).

So to the original question "What is the proper way to attach the jib sheets to the jib?" - depends. Do what works for you.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 01/08/2009 : 14:57:10

For a cow hitch to fail in the middle of ~ 60' of line means that it would have to pull the "non'tensioned" end approximately 30' through the loop formed at the headsail. Doesn't seem likely to me. As far as the line itself failing, (i.e. rope breaking from the strain) wouldn't a knot with more turns fail sooner? It seems to me that I read that somewhere.

In any event, Jim's right, do what works. It's unlikely our little coastal cruisers are rounding Cape Horn in winter.

Edited by - John Russell on 01/08/2009 15:05:22

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 01/08/2009 : 15:18:43

Chris (Prospector) - it's a sad story. I was training an all-girl crew to race in the Women's Regatta. It was blowing pretty good and I called for the pole down. The genoa trimmer released the sheet all at once and the pole slammed into the forstay and the top 1/3rd kept going around the forestay...and yes they were "cute" but all married!
Another time (with the same crew) on the 2nd weather leg we went to tack at the RC boat to avoid the line, the lady helmsman (helmswoman?) moved the tiller the wrong way - I shoved it all the way over for a tack using my foot - the photographer on the stern of the RC boat jumped backwards into the cockpit. After the race I asked him why. He said "when your bow pulpit got inside the focal length of my lens I decided discretion was the better part of valor"
And yes, we DID miss the RC boat!

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 01/08/2009 : 15:36:20

"our little coastal cruisers"

Nicely worded!

wouldn't a knot with more turns fail sooner?

Not necessarily. The chafe from the two loops is double the chafe from one loop...

Heck, I still consider a 30'er small-ish.

Flicka 20' is smallish. We have met people cruising on a Pearson 25 Hull #1. Aaahh! but the original Jeep was once considered an SUV

Going back to the original question:
What is the proper way to attach the jib sheets to the jib? 

Webster definition:

7 a: strictly accurate : correct barchaic : virtuous , respectable c: strictly decorous : genteel
8: marked by suitability, rightness, or appropriateness : fit

Based on the definition of "Proper" I think that the vote should be for the bowline. That being said, I learned something new here and I appreciate the alternative solution. For example, if my jib sheets chafed thru in a storm somehow, I now have added this "Cow thing" to my bag of "blue water" tricks. Why? because I could take one long piece of line and jury rig jib sheets if no other solution was available. Thank you bovine people! If it works, awesome!

Again, thanks for the tip!

sten

Edited by - on

SailCO26
Captain

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Response Posted - 01/08/2009 : 16:47:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 Flicka 20' is smallish. We have met people cruising on a Pearson 25 Hull #1.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I ran into a crew in Hopetown Abaco 5-6 years ago that came across the stream in a Contessa 26. In my mind that's a "small" boat. Does that mean he can't bluewater it? Nope, just means it's small to me and small boat "rules" apply.

Ironically, ran into another Contessa 26 racing in CO up until last year or so, IIRC. He ended up trading to a Catalina 27.

Edited by - on

Deric
Captain

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408 Posts

Response Posted - 01/08/2009 : 16:51:02

I remember out on the lake this summer past, a crew member tied each jib sheet to the jib. As soon as we filled sails with wind, one of the bowline knots came off -- oops. I had to bring the boat to head into wind to have him re do the knot.

A knot poorly tied demonstrated the result. And because my crew member buddy fancies himself as a true sailor, there was humor to his embarrassment.

It is just like being a kid with a poorly tied shoe string: resulting in a tripping failure.

Wouldn't it be original if this club invented a knot, and called it the JIB KNOT? Think of it.

The JIB KNOT; invented by the Catalina-Capri-25 Association.

Ha. What say ye men? and women?

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/08/2009 : 20:32:34

Edited by - on

Peregrine
Admiral

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830 Posts

Response Posted - 01/08/2009 : 21:27:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 Bowline Pro - Can be tied with one hand...

http://www.truveo.com/Tie-A-Bowline-Knot-With-Only-One-Hand/id/453776226

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/913583/single_handed_bowline/

(Learn to do this while being towed at about 2 or 3 knots - it may be the difference between being recovered or being left behind in a rescue.

Snapshackle Con: The split ring that holds in the tensioned spring that holds the snapshackle closed can catch on lifelines, the sheets, and other things while you are out. once its done that enough times the split ring WILL fail. The retaining pin will gracefully exit the snap shackle land you will be left with a snapless shackle (a $20 piece of steel which is not even functional as a paperweight), and a jib that is sheetless.

To fix this you will have to go on foredeck, and either attach a spare sheet to the jib (with a bowline) until you get things back under control, or douse sail, put a spare snapshackle on your sheet, and then re-raise your sails.

I think the most salty solution is the dutch toggle, but for now I'll stick with my bowlines

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

There is realy nothing on this shackle to catch on lifelines or anything else.

There is more to catch on with this one but it is rarely a problem.
I use a squared off version of the top one and it has served me well for ten years.

They are not cheap but I figure that removing and storing my sheet(s) off the furling genoa has saved much more money by not having to replace the sheet(s) that deteriorate in the sun and weather if left on all season which is six months in my case.

Edited by - Peregrine on 01/10/2009 13:49:56

Deric
Captain

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408 Posts

Response Posted - 01/08/2009 : 21:49:02

When I first started sailing 4 years ago, the sailors at the Marina gave me the impression that part of the fun of sailing is the preparation and setting up all that is sailboat. In fact, I was given the impression that sailors like to mess with lines - - 4 years ago I thought of them as rope.

Okay so why not set sheets and take them down?
tie knots, sling lines, pull sheets, toss lasso sail on

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/08/2009 : 23:23:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Deric
 ...sailors like to mess with lines - - 4 years ago I thought of them as rope...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">There is "rope" on a sailboat... It's what the "lines" are made of (except for occasionally some that are made of wire).

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 01/09/2009 : 06:36:18

We can defeat any system or device with carelessness. A bowline knot tied casually can come untied. If the knot is going to be working under a significant load, then you should not just form a loose knot, but pull its elements tight.

Snap shackles are also risky, because I have seen and had them come unsnapped often enough to not trust them. They can come unsnapped because the pull snags on the rigging, or they can come unsnapped because they weren't securely snapped to the sail in the first place. When you push the bail shut on a snap shackle, you hear a "snap" sound that makes you think it's closed securely, but often, the pin that secures it has only slightly entered the hole that secures it, and it'll come open as soon as it's put under load. I have seen it happen several times on other boats with a spinnaker, and my friend did it last year with my spinnaker halliard, allowing the halliard to fly to the top of the mast. The best way to be sure a snap shackle is secure is to look at the pin, and make sure it is fully penetrating the hole.

Whatever knot or device you use, don't be casual in the way you use it, because any knot or device can fail.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 01/09/2009 06:39:22

SailCO26
Captain

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Response Posted - 01/09/2009 : 08:39:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 Snap shackles are also risky, because I have seen and had them come unsnapped often enough to not trust them. They can come unsnapped because the pull snags on the rigging, or they can come unsnapped because they weren't securely snapped to the sail in the first place. [...]<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I do have a snap shackle on the spin halyard (as well as the spin pole topping lift and downhaul). On the spin halyard, once attached it gets taped around the ring and bail. Not so much to hold it together, but as another opportunity to verify it's completely closed and to keep the split ring from catching on anything during the set and releasing the shackle.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">There is "rope" on a sailboat... <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Yeah, boltrope in the sails.

Edited by - on

DJAnderson
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 01/09/2009 : 10:22:24

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">(except for occasionally some that are made of wire).
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Which,of course, is more 'properly' called "wire rope"

For the record, I use the cow hitch, and thanks to this thread I know what to call it now!

Edited by - DJAnderson on 01/09/2009 10:22:54

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/09/2009 : 10:41:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by DJAnderson
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">(except for occasionally some that are made of wire).
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Which,of course, is more 'properly' called "wire rope"

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Yup, but to split the split hair, there is often reference to "wire-to-rope" halyards (lines)... suggesting a distinction.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 01/09/2009 : 12:30:48

And we never split hairs here...

Edited by - on

crcalhoon
Captain

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Response Posted - 01/09/2009 : 16:24:04

Maybe I'm just a sissy. And I know that none of us ever, ever, ever allow our jibs to flog around and about the foredeck, (although others do) but the thought of a stainless steel shackle blowing around up there where my eyes and teeth are un-nerves me slightly, so I think I'll stick with cordage.(thereby avoiding the "rope" or "line" quandary)

Edited by - on

Tradewind
Admiral

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531 Posts

Response Posted - 01/09/2009 : 17:43:26

With 30 years sailing my previous boat, Cal 36, a bowline was the only knot to use for this purpose. Purchased a Cat 250 2 years ago and the PO had used the cowhitch on the roller furling headsail. I figured I'd go with it, then came time to take the sail off and the only thing that untied that knot was the rigger's knife. For me, only the bowline is appropriate. I've tied a bowline onto a headsail in heavy rain and 5' waves with one hand, hanging on to the bowrail with the other. An exciting experience! I wouldn't try a cowhitch under those conditions.

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 01/09/2009 : 21:07:17

I've tied a bowline onto a headsail in heavy rain and 5' waves with one hand, hanging on to the bowrail with the other. An exciting experience! I wouldn't try a cowhitch under those conditions.

Anyone keeping track?

ouch!

sten

Edited by - on

Deric
Captain

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Response Posted - 01/10/2009 : 10:16:57

Heh, I can tie a bowline in one direction only. I always thought it a great exercise would be to tie a bowline as:

1) from right hand
2) from left hand
3) right hand with loop facing left
4) left hand with loop facing right

all the above with with line facing down.

all the above with eyes closed

all the above while sailing

all the above with your hands behind your back -- okay,, getting silly I know.

The point is to really know the know the knot -- inside and out (no pun intended)

I seem to only to make the bowline from one direction. Obviously, I need more time practicing and less time thinking about doing it.

I tip my hat to those who can tie the knot using one hand in storm like conditions.

Deric

Edited by - on

crcalhoon
Captain

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USA
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Response Posted - 01/10/2009 : 12:08:42

My wife used to be able to tie a bowline with her toes. Won me a couple of beers that way. Not now, though. Too bad. Need to make her start practicing again.

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