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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

Attaching halyard and pennant to a gennaker

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JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/09/2009 : 09:43:39

Advice needed from all you salty dogs - - -

My gennaker (asymmetrical spinnaker) was rigged when I bought the boat with a halyard that ends with a 3" carabiner to attach the head of the sail, which in this case is a nylon sock holding the collapsed sail. I snap the top of the sock onto the halyard and hoist away. As you know, the sock makes furling the gennaker relatively simple, even under load.

Likewise, the tack of the sail is rigged to a 4' steel cable pennant with carabiners at both ends. Snaps onto the sail and the bow in a second. I've recently added an adjustable tack line to the pennant on the sail that runs through a turning block at the bow back to the cockpit, to flatten the gennaker by lowering the foot when the wind is on the beam.

Carabiners are aluminum and seem much less robust than the stainless steel shackles I use for the jib and mainsail running rigging.

Are carabiners designed for loads of a few hundred pounds that this light air sail would usually generate? Do they fail under load?

Does anyone use carabiners for gennaker or spinnaker rigging?

JohnP
1978 C25 SR/FK "Gypsy"
Mill Creek off the Magothy River, Chesapeake Bay
Port Captain, northern Chesapeake Bay

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/09/2009 : 10:25:11

John, there are carabiners and there are carabiners... The "real" ones are designed to hold a rock climber falling against a safety line. The aluminum is to reduce weight when climbing (typically with a bunch of them hanging from your waist)--that could be useful, particularly on he clew in light air. What I don't like about them is that you can't "make" them to a line, such that they won't be grabbed by Neptune at the most inopportune time. Note that a snap-shackle has a loop that can be tied or spliced to a line such that it's captured there. I never used carabiners on my boats.

BTW, the ones in your picture look to me like they're missing the "tangs" (?) that keep them from being pulled open by a shock load that exceeds their bending-strength.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 01/09/2009 10:30:26

HeelinPatrick
Navigator

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USA
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Response Posted - 01/09/2009 : 10:31:26

I would think the "Not For Climbing Purpose" would indicate not strong enough for your application. Also, I learned doing a little amature climbing, steel carabiners are recommended more often, as then are not brittle like aluminum. If you drop a aluminum climbing carabiner, it is considered unsafe for climbing. If you drop a steel carabiner, it is still good to use. That being said, they still might be ok for use, however, more robust is a safer bet.

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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4479 Posts

Response Posted - 01/09/2009 : 12:51:05

I've never heard that an aluminum carabiner was was considered unsafe after a drop. I climbed quite a bit when I was younger & most of mine were aluminum alloy with a few steel ones. Most of those were capable of holding a shock load of thousands of pounds. If you buy a proper carabiner, it'll have it's load rating stamped into the side, and you'll see two dimples on the inside of either end where it was tested to it's stamped load. If you don't see the dimples (there are none in your photo), they're not safe for a load. As Dave said, there are carabiners and there are carabiners.

If you're going to use a carabiner, I'd probably use a locking one (go to REI if there's one close to you, they have a huge variety of them and the expertise to advise you). There are several different styles of locks, some are automatic, others require you to spin a knurled nut, or other schemes. We have locking carabiners on both of our PFDs through our harnesses. We use them to attach ourselves to our spinnaker halyard when up on the foredeck for an extra point of safety. Make sure you can easily work the locking mechanism one handed. Rita's carabiner is smaller than mine to accommodate her smaller hands, and her lock is easier to work than mine. Mine is a twist & pull style, and I had to work at it for a while to be able to do it one handed with my eyes closed.

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John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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3444 Posts

Response Posted - 01/09/2009 : 13:10:59

I wouldn't use a carabiner here. A D-Shackle at the end of a swedged loop on a Halyard. Or, check out the thread about bowline/cow hitch. This is where I'd tie a bowline.

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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4479 Posts

Response Posted - 01/09/2009 : 13:24:25

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">This is where I'd tie a bowline.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Concur.

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jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 01/10/2009 : 10:47:21

I second the bowline.

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Old Disco Queen
1st Mate

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66 Posts

Response Posted - 01/10/2009 : 21:33:38

A bowline is your best friend. Learn to tie it in the dark with your eyes closed.

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redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 01/10/2009 : 23:58:21

moo!

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OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3440 Posts

Response Posted - 01/11/2009 : 09:13:27

John,

Wikipedia has the following excerpt which I believe describes the specific carabiner in your photo:

"Fashion
Carabiners are also useful in everyday life, for securing water bottles to belts, or pen knives etc. Cheap and colorful carabiners that vaguely resemble mountaineering carabiners, but are generally thinner, smaller and made of a lower grade metal have become quite popular as keyrings or in other applications as a universal connector. They have an extremely simplified latching mechanism, without a pin to allow the gate to carry a load. Such novelty carabiners are typically marked with an explicit liability warning, e.g. "Not for climbing", as well as a low maximum load, e.g. "Not to exceed 20 lbs."

I agree with what some others indicated regarding not all carabiners are the same. They are not only made in different materials but I suspect that those made out of aluminum come in different grades/alloys and are therefore with different strength properties. It would not be so bad if all the material grades were of significant strength but this particular fitting seems to be very popular for non-load applications bordering on fashion uses and so there are light load carabiners. Also, some just have a spring to keep it closed and others have a capturing device when in the closed position to ensure it does not accidentally open.

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