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Attaching sheets to the Jib?

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pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 01/07/2009 : 11:42:43

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glen
Captain

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Response Posted - 01/07/2009 : 12:32:33

Some where it is written “Learn to tie a proper knot, but if you can not tie a proper knot tie one hell of a lot of bad ones”

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John Russell
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Response Posted - 01/07/2009 : 12:45:55

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 Whew! For a while I thought I had somehow missed the boat on this "Cow's Hitch" method of attaching jib sheets. Don't have a Chapmans with me but I am pretty sure that this is not a conventional method of attaching jib sheets.

Note: Wiki's definition also included: "Caveat Will fail unless equal tension is applied to both of the standing parts of the rope."

sten

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Remember, Wiki is only as accurate as the person that made the entry. In my experience, the tension on my sheets ("both the standing parts of the rope") is NEVER equal while in use. It has NEVER failed for me. So much for Wiki.

I use a cow's hitch. I think it's the easiest of connectors among all those mentioned heretofore. The concern over the sheets hanging up on the shrouds hasn't been a problem for me either. But, that doesn't mean I haven't had momentary hang-ups. It simply means that I might need to release the sheet tension during a tack for a half-second or so and let the sail luff a little to break free. I'd imagine that a knot with more angles and turns, e.g. bowline, or worse, a shackle, would tend to hang more since they have more places to catch a shroud. That's neither experience nor expertise, just my logic.

Could well be one of the many things I've been wrong about in my life but, I don't think so this time.

Man, I'm learning to hate snow!

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dmpilc
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Response Posted - 01/07/2009 : 12:56:21

I use a single-length jib sheet with a cow's hitch in the middle; separate lines for jib and genoa (jib sheet is heavier line that came with the sail and boat and just about the only line I didn't replace after buying the boat). I've used separate line sheets with a bowline, but the bowline knot tended to catch on the forward lower shrouds more. Advantages to separate sheets to me are (1) changing to lighter/heavier sheets is easier while under way, and (2) coiling the lines after sailing is easier. As for stowing a wet line, I leave it outside the sailbag.
With the cow's hitch, I tie another knot a few inches back using both "sheets" which leaves a good space for attaching the whisker pole, or I'll take short length of 1/4" line and tie a loop in the clew for the pole.
One of our C-22 guys lashes a stainless ring to the clew of his genoa for attaching the pole.

Edited by - dmpilc on 01/07/2009 13:01:21

SailCO26
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Response Posted - 01/07/2009 : 13:16:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 So for you guys who leave your sheets attached - how do you dry them before stowing the sails? I suppose that if you have a furler, leaving them on makes more sense, but I don't, and I can't imagine bagging the headsail with a sopping wet sheet in the bag and not ending up with problems.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Coil the sheets outside the bag, lay on top of the bag. SOP even when the sheets are dry. BUT, remember that if the sheets are wet, the sail probably is too (you're not dragging them around in the drink while you sail, are you?). ;)

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 Note: Wiki's definition also included: "Caveat Will fail unless equal tension is applied to both of the standing parts of the rope."<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">The breaking strength of my sheets using this "knot" are SIGNIFICANTLY higher than my tolerance for having that much sail out in any conditions likely for this to become an event.

I do see the benefits of the single-sheet bowline method (being "removable" and it should tack around better than the 2-sheet/2 bowline method), but to me the disadvantage there is the excess weight of the knot. My FD would get bashed senseless during tacks!

J

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Renzo
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Response Posted - 01/07/2009 : 13:20:04

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by glen
 Some where it is written “Learn to tie a proper knot, but if you can not tie a proper knot tie one hell of a lot of bad ones”
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
OK, OK, I can't resist! - Some people resemble that remark!

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jerlim
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Response Posted - 01/07/2009 : 14:06:23

I may be in the minority - nothing new there - but we go with a clove hitch...you will need a marline spike to remove it, but we leave it on. It's our choice as it emparts the least amount of stress onto the line.

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JohnP
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Response Posted - 01/07/2009 : 15:20:46

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Even Chance
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Response Posted - 01/07/2009 : 16:22:31

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by jerlim
 I may be in the minority - nothing new there - but we go with a clove hitch...you will need a marline spike to remove it, but we leave it on. It's our choice as it emparts the least amount of stress onto the line.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I have a hard time picturing that, since the lines in a clove hitch exit in opposite directions, and you'd have a lot of line in the grommet.

I've used a cow/girth hitch, but put a half hitch in it. I'm wary of pulling on one side of the hitch -- that hitch is always used elsewhere with tension on both lines, as on a saddle girth. (yes, I read the testimonies. Color me cautious)

I have also used two half hitches (without a girth hitch) -- the standing end goes to one side of the boat and the other end to the other. It's a small knot less likely to hang on the shrouds.

Edited by - Even Chance on 01/07/2009 16:27:31

John Russell
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Response Posted - 01/07/2009 : 16:24:30

I'm often reminded of just how small my boat is. Guess I'm blessed by Chapman.

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britinusa
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Response Posted - 01/07/2009 : 16:52:39

Now I'm embarassed!!!

All the while I've been wrting 'bowline' when it should have been 'clove hitch'

I must have been sailing too much!!!

I tie a clove hitch so that the ears of the knot extend from each side of the sail within the cringle.

mea kupla or somit like that!!!

But it has lead to a 2 page thread on the subject

Paul

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Happy D
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Response Posted - 01/07/2009 : 16:56:57

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I tie a clove hitch so that the ears of the knot extend from each side of the sail within the cringle.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

On page 6 of this rigging guide shows it pretty well. This is the way I do it on my little boat.
http://www.dinghyshop.com/sailboat/performance/420_Rigging_Manual.pdf

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SailCO26
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Response Posted - 01/07/2009 : 17:11:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Happy D
 On page 6 of this rigging guide shows it pretty well. This is the way I do it on my little boat.
http://www.dinghyshop.com/sailboat/performance/420_Rigging_Manual.pdf
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I like. Think I'll give this a shot on the new headsail.

J

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britinusa
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Response Posted - 01/07/2009 : 18:49:12

The dinghy shop technique is almost as I do my 'CLOVE HITCH' except that it's rotated by 180º so that the ears come out of the cringle.

Paul

clove hitch clove hitch clove hitch clove hitch clove hitch clove hitch clove hitch clove hitch clove hitch clove hitch 1000 times!

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Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 01/07/2009 : 19:36:18

I'll stick with the bowline - with shroud rollers (pvc pipe) installed we never get a hang-up. Easy to undo even after racing in high wind and if the jib cringle isn't large enough to take both lines and the whisker pole, the bowline makes an easy loop in which to insert it.

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britinusa
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Response Posted - 01/07/2009 : 22:16:05

Derek, I thought the whisker pole was supposed to hold the leeward sheet in order for the sheet to be able to slide along the pole end preventing the pole snagging on the forestay with the sail in the event of a jybe.

Paul (one who has a whisker pole but never used it!)

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 01/08/2009 : 00:38:09

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">All the while I've been wrting 'bowline' when it should have been 'clove hitch'<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I've been wondering how you got a bowline to be symmetric to each side of the clew.

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Even Chance
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Response Posted - 01/08/2009 : 07:24:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Happy D
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I tie a clove hitch so that the ears of the knot extend from each side of the sail within the cringle.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

On page 6 of this rigging guide shows it pretty well. This is the way I do it on my little boat.
http://www.dinghyshop.com/sailboat/performance/420_Rigging_Manual.pdf
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Thanks for the picture -- just what I needed. Intriguing. I would trust that more than a girth hitch.

Brooke

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/08/2009 : 08:50:22

Our first big midwinter squabble!

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millermg
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Response Posted - 01/08/2009 : 09:07:26

This is subtle, but up there in the notoriously light air racing of the PNW, cow hitches are the favored knot because they are lighter weight than bowlines or shackles and won't weigh the sail down in 1.5 knots of wind. Especially true for an asymmetrical spinnaker sheet. If a cow hitch is only on for a day, it breaks pretty easy. However, if I was sailing on my ear all the time I'd probably use bowlines.

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redviking
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Response Posted - 01/08/2009 : 10:43:38

If you consider 25 feet to be a small sailboat, then it's kosher. Otherwise, you're knot is not!

Sorry kids, the loads on a C25 are pretty significant, but if you want to think of your vesel as nothing more than a sailing dinghy that's up to you. At your own risk.

First rule of sailing - or at least somewhere near the top - always have backups for backups. If the "Cow Hitch" fails, chafes thru, whatever, you will have nothing on the jib or genny.

Our first big midwinter squabble!

Every so often it seems like there is a thread which sorta defines who goes where - if you get my drift.

As this site is often considered instructional for newbies - I would like to caution anyone who has not experimented with this technique before and actually trusts it, to consider the tried and true bowline. If you need to break it you can - sure beats having to cut your um, sheet? (singular) in an emergency. Also, the wiki post regarding failure when tension is not equal makes a huge amount of sense if you think about it!

As noted, if you sail in very light wind - the issue may be moot.

sten

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Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 01/08/2009 : 10:50:06

Paul - there is no way we could accidentally jybe the pole! It extends to 16' and would destroy itself against the forestay (already happened years ago - but that's another story involving an all-lady crew...) I definitely don't want the pole sliding along the sheet, it would quickly destroy any drive from the sail.
On the light air genoa we have a circlet of 3/16" line in the cringle as with 2 sheets in the cringle already there isn't room for the pole. This gives us slightly better deployment of the sail than holding the pole in the bowline.

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Prospector
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Response Posted - 01/08/2009 : 12:33:38

Hey Red,

I you have A bowline on A sheet... how is that a backup to a backup? I have 2 bowlines on 2 sheets. If I lose one to chafe, poor tying, whatever, I can tack over and still have the Genoa supported on the other sheet. This means that if I point high enough, I will be able to sheet the sail inside the lifelines, make my repairs, and then tack back over. Yes the 2 knots are heavier than one. I am willing to make that concession.

Derek - Can you elaborate on your pole and sheets and the sliding thing with the all-lady crew? Are they cute?

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Champipple
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Response Posted - 01/08/2009 : 12:47:19

Of the three mentioned here are in my opinion the pros and cons:

Shackles
Pro - easy to attach/unttach.
one hand attachment
Con - Beats up the deck on tacks,
easy to get caught in the shrouds
A lot of extra weight in light air.
Has potential to cause extra wear at the clew.
Depending on blocks you can lose the last few inches of "in"

Cow Hitch -

Pro - Easy to put on,
1 single line not two (if I'm thinking of the right knot)
Con - Can slip, though rare.
One sheet means racing sail changes are more difficult.
knot can cinch up so tight it becomes difficult to take out

(I'd consider this knot if I had a roller furler)

Bowline-

Pro - easy off/easy on
Get every last inch of sheet into the block
Can take off one side for easy hoist inside/tack/ drop inside sail changes

Con - Knots can get caught in the shrouds
requires two hands

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 01/08/2009 : 13:22:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Champipple
 Cow Hitch -
Con - Can slip, though rare.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Equally rare are icebergs in the Gulf of Mexico.

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