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Attaching sheets to the Jib?

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Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/06/2009 : 14:13:18

What is the proper way to attach the jib sheets to the jib? I'm quite sure I'm doing this wrong as I simply pass the sheet mid way through the clew then make a knot. At the end of the season I need vice grips to untie that knot! Can't be good either for chafing.

Steve Blackburn, Calgary, AB
C250WB - 1999 - Hull 396

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2009 : 14:27:36

A [url="http://www.apparent-wind.com/knots/bowline/"]bowline [/url]will hold tightly and is easy to untie. You'll just love using that knot.

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2009 : 15:01:23

I have used bowlines, shackles, and a [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cow_hitch"]cow's hitch[/url]. Of the three, I like the cow's hitch the best. The shackles make it easy to change between jibs, but I worried about someone getting whacked in the head by them on the foredeck. Bowlines are bulky & tend to hang up on occasion, the hitch is small, ties & unties easily, and doesn't hang up easily.

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2009 : 15:17:23

bowline - easy,secure,lightweight.
the crossover being made inside.

it's a winner

paul

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2009 : 16:09:17

I also agree on the bowline. We started the season last year with snap shackles. At $20 each they were hard to keep buying, and both of them broke at critical moments. I have 2 sets of sheets, each with 2 lines (port and Stbd) my theory is that they will last longer since they are always getting reversed end for end, and for light air or heavy.

After each sail I untie all knots in them before hanging them in the forward locker to dry.

And when you're out there remember, its not whether you have a tall rig that matters, its how well you perform between the sheets.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3440 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2009 : 17:08:27

I have always used a cow's hitch on past boats and present. Never had a problem.

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Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1913 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2009 : 17:27:17

cow's hitch

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John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2009 : 17:49:26

Cow's hitch. One continuous length of line for port and Starboard.

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Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2009 : 18:11:30

Thanks. I think I'll go with the Cow's Hitch next time. Looks real easy.

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britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2009 : 21:09:19

The bowline on the jib sheet just has a nice symmetry to it.

When the Navy taught me to tie knots, there were two rules.
a) It must do the job
b) You must be able to undo it

And the third item that my knots petty officer insisted upon was that the knot looks good.

A Bowline used for the jib sheets has the tails leading to port and stbd. So it obeys all three rules.

Paul

Edited by - on

Andy_334
Navigator

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USA
206 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2009 : 21:14:40

Another vote for the cow hitch. Smaller than two bowlines. Less to get caught up on the forestay.

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Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2009 : 21:15:20

Nice try Paul but I'm sticking to my new religon. All praise the Cow Hitch!

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britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2009 : 21:19:38

Andy, you only need one bowline! The sheet consists of a single line with the bowline (Rules

) in the middle.

Steve, let's keep politics and religion out of this

Besides, Cow Hitches are Cruel!!

Paul

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2009 : 21:28:05

Paul, I think you'd be right if only I could tie a purdy bowline. Mine are functional but symmetrical, not so much. I might try it in the spring though. I will suggest however, that a cow hitch is more readily undone than a bowline.

Man, you can sure tell it's winter!

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2009 : 21:57:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 I will suggest however, that a cow hitch is more readily undone than a bowline.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">After 20+ minutes working on one with a marlin spike on my genny-sheet cow hitch, I'd be inclined to disagree... but any knot that takes that tension for an entire season is probably going to be tough to break down.

One possible disadvantage of the cow hitch is that it has a perpendicular loop that's tight to the clew, such that it might be more likely to catch on a shroud. The bowline can make a loose loop at the clew, which might be less likely to catch. Just a vague hypothesis...

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2009 : 22:51:45

If you think cow's hitches are cruel, what about a lark's head instead?

Paul, we were taught the same thing in the USN, including one other thing, you should be able to tie it with your eye's closed. I knew more than one bosun's mates who could tie a bowline behind their backs one handed. One of the chief bosun's on my ship could tie two behind his back simultaneously.

Dave, when you're trying to break a knot, Ashley ([url="http://www.amazon.com/Ashley-Book-Knots-Clifford/dp/0385040253"]Ashley book of knots[/url], required reading for any aspiring marling spike seaman) recommends you "break" the knot by bending it at 90 degrees to it's lay. This is incredibly easy on a bowline or carrick bend since everything's at right angles to each other. On a cow's hitch (or lark's head) you should be able to break the loop down over the two legs to loosen it up, but I can see where it being cranked down over the sail & cringle could make it more difficult. You can also "walk" or "roll" the knot to break it, but this is tough on the fibers. You do this by deliberately crushing the knot underfoot and rolling it to break the individual lines away from each other. Of course I was taught to never step on a line for any reason, especially my climbing ropes, you didn't want to crush rock crystals into your line, so this would be a last resort to me. You can also soak the line in hot water & detergent to loosen it's grip on itself.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5895 Posts

Response Posted - 01/07/2009 : 07:02:12

I used a cow hitch for a few years, and it looks more compact than bowlines, and it looks like it would be less likely to snag on the rigging, but the fact is that it snagged on the rigging in light air at least as often as bowlines, and maybe more. I've been crewing on lots of different racing and cruising boats on the Chesapeake Bay, and can't recall a single boat that didn't use bowlines. Most of them remove the sheets at the end of each sail, and coil and stow the sheets out of the sun and weather. I think it's easier to remove, coil and stow two shorter lines than one long, long line. It's much harder to properly coil a longer line, because it's difficult to get all the twist and kinks out of it as you turn each loop. Finally, when I used a cow hitch, the outer cover of my jib sheet frayed at the knot sooner than expected. I believe it's because the cow hitch tightens a great deal under load, and it focuses all the load at one point on the knot. The bowline seems to spread the load to different points around the knot, which is less likely to cause damage to the line.

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DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 01/07/2009 : 07:32:17

What takes less time to accomplish? Does it do the job adequately? I believe one of the oldest and best rules is that simpler is better and the Cow Hitch is much simpler and is very efficient. I also see no need to remove and/or separately coil and stow (at least on a boat our size). Coil them together and if they're wet leave the coil outside the sail bag.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/07/2009 : 08:49:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by delliottg
 If you think cow's hitches are cruel, what about a lark's head instead?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Is there a difference?

I think the reason the cow hitch is difficult to break open after a season is that it compresses the reinforcing around the clew, which creates enormous pressure inside the knot (and possibly does the clew no good). In the fall, mine would be like concrete, with the loop literally embedded into the two tails. Push, roll, crush... take your pick--it was an exercise! It probably didn't help that my sheet had a "soft" (not shiny) texture to its cover.

The bowline can avoid this by maintaining a loose loop through the clew, so the only pressure is internal to the knot. And the knot itself is designed to take that. The cow hitch looks neater and simpler, but it might be the exception to the "simpler is better" rule.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 01/07/2009 08:55:14

SailCO26
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 01/07/2009 : 08:55:37

+1 cow hitch. It's compact and in my experience has the least chance of hanging up during the tack.

Agreed that it ain't easy to get off, but I dont. Once I put the sheets on, they stay on, every headsail has it's own set of sheets, until replaced with new. I dont even bother trying to untie 'em, just cut 'em off and use the (now) 2 lines for spares/backups somewhere else (NOT as sheets).

Jim

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Peregrine
Admiral

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830 Posts

Response Posted - 01/07/2009 : 09:08:02

There was a discussion about this long ago.
I have been using a simple half hitch on a snap shackle. The sheet is double length and I remove it (them?) at the end of the day, tying the furling genoa with a blue, to match the sunbrella cover, sacrificial line. Removing the sheets adds many months to their life.
The minimal knot rarely snags and hasn't slipped in the years I've used it.
In all the racing I've done the preferred (but expensive) choice is spliced eyes with snap shackles. Not only do they not snag they are quickly changed if need be.
The knot has a name but I can't seem to find it, I'll keep looking.

Edited by - Peregrine on 01/07/2009 09:10:03

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 01/07/2009 : 10:20:01

Steve, can't speak to the proper way to join a line to the jib, just as to how I prefer to do it. I have color coordinated lines RED and GREEN, 5/8"D. I fasten them to the jib by passing each through the sail's clew and seize them after stitching them (individually)through. I then wrap them with riggers tape. The end result looks like a spliced eye loop. I leave them on wrapping them around the stored sail or within the folded sail. When it becomes necessary to remove them I unwrap the tape and cut through the stitching. Haven't untied them in several years.

Val on he hard DAGNABIT, #3936, Patchogue, N.Y.

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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 01/07/2009 : 10:45:56

So for you guys who leave your sheets attached - how do you dry them before stowing the sails? I suppose that if you have a furler, leaving them on makes more sense, but I don't, and I can't imagine bagging the headsail with a sopping wet sheet in the bag and not ending up with problems.

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redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 01/07/2009 : 11:12:34

Whew! For a while I thought I had somehow missed the boat on this "Cow's Hitch" method of attaching jib sheets. Don't have a Chapmans with me but I am pretty sure that this is not a conventional method of attaching jib sheets.

Note: Wiki's definition also included: "Caveat Will fail unless equal tension is applied to both of the standing parts of the rope."

sten

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pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 01/07/2009 : 11:41:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 So for you guys who leave your sheets attached - how do you dry them before stowing the sails? I suppose that if you have a furler, leaving them on makes more sense, but I don't, and I can't imagine bagging the headsail with a sopping wet sheet in the bag and not ending up with problems.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
No furler=snap shackle for me.

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crcalhoon
Captain

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USA
303 Posts

Response Posted - 01/07/2009 : 11:42:41

With roller furling, I prefer a lark's head. Otherwise, bowlines work just fine. For the last two or three years, I have been using what I believe is called a "dutch toggle". You middle up the line and make a bight which you then seize very thoroughly. This bight should pass through the clew of the sail and leave about two inches sticking through. Take a piece of line about 6-8 inches long and put a tight figure eight--or get fancy with a monkey's fist--in the end, then clap that onto one side of the bight just below the seizing and seize it too very well. Stick the bight through the clew of the sail, then stick the knot up through the bight and yank and the sheets are on. Shove the slack in the bight through, pull out the knot and the sheets are off. You have to be a little careful in the initial fitting and getting the sizes just right, but it works like a charm. I suspect that every crewman on the Santa Maria would have known exactly what it was and how it was used and it always makes me feel a little salty. I leave my sheets in place on deck shackled down on the foredeck to an eye (PO installed that, it was just handy for this purpose) The real beauty of this system is found when changing headsails. It takes about 10 seconds to transfer these sheets to the new sail. I suppose there is a UV problem with leaving them on deck, but we leave our halyards out,. . .

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