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Woe to the Astrovan

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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/09/2008 : 12:27:36

Well, she died.

Last night on the way home, the Astrovan ended its 350,000 km life on the side of Hwy 404 with a puff of smoke and a bang. According to the garage, the engine kaput and she ain't gonna go no more no more, she ain't gonna go no more. Since she was mostly being held together with duct tape and bubblegum, I shouldn't be too surprised.

I could replace her with a "sister ship" for around or under $1000. But that would make the resident trailer expert cry, so I am watching for something more robust. I am thinking Diesel Suburban (1999 was the last year they made them, the newer ones cost more than I'm willing ot pay), Chevy 2500 series (Diesel), F-250 superduty (Diesel), or Dodge Ram (Cummins Diesel).

I know the debate has raged ad nauseum around here, but still if you have input about which vehicle is the best etc. I'd love ot hear it. Its winter, and nothing is more fun in the off season than debating teak treatments and tow vehicles. Just rmeember the price of gas around here compared to down there (hence the appeal of Diesel)...
[url="http://www.torontogasprices.com/retail_price_chart.aspx"]Gas $$ Comparison Site[/url]

Also, if anyone in the "Greater Golden Horseshoe" (Toronto/Southern Ontario Area) sees an amazing deal on one of these vehicles, please pass along the particulars.

"Iris"
1984 FK/SR #4040
http://frosthaus.blogspot.com/

Take a minute to register your boat with the association!!
http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/owner_questionnaire.htm

Edited by - on

Ed Cassidy
Captain

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USA
365 Posts

Response Posted - 12/09/2008 : 12:51:58

At all costs, avoid the GM diesels. They are notoriously high maintenance. You will be able to find a diesel Suburban and it will be cheap and there is a reason for that.

If you are looking for the most bulletproof truck, look for a Dodge Cummins 12 valve, pre 1998 I believe. Avoid the 24 valve from 1998 to 2001. If you need more power, look for a 2002 or newer Dodge diesel. The absolute cheapest state to get a Dodge Diesel in is Texas, perhaps because there are more available there? I bought a 2004 diesel there for $7000 less that I could in Florida. Just my added nauseum.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 12/09/2008 : 14:26:29

While I've got an F-250 diesel, I wouldn't ever buy another one. The guy I bought my boat from runs a shipping business & recommended the Dodges as well, the six cylinder simply has fewer parts to go wrong. My Ford has needed more repairs than I consider "normal" for a truck with ~100k miles on it.

As I've said before, if Toyota made a diesel (I've heard they're making one for 2010), I'd have bought that. I drove my 1/2 ton Toyota truck for nearly a quarter million miles before selling it to get the Ford to tow the boat. In that time it was in the shop exactly once for non-routine work, and that was a factory recall that they fixed for free out of warranty & provided me with a rental while it was being fixed.

FWIW, one of my former co-workers just picked up a 2002 F-350 for about $5k less than what I paid for our '99 just two years ago. Nobody wants a gas guzzler anymore, so your Astrovan chose a good time to die, it's a buyer's market for big trucks & SUVs.

Edited by - delliottg on 12/09/2008 14:29:01

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/09/2008 : 20:30:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 ...she ain't gonna go no more no more, she ain't gonna go no more.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Hit the Road, Jack...

(BTW, diesel is half a buck more around here.)

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 12/09/2008 : 20:37:22

We saw regular gas at $175 and Diesel at $2.60 a gallon here in south florida this evening!

My 2005F150 4x4 supercab is my first Truck, LOVE IT!

Paul

Edited by - on

Ed Cassidy
Captain

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USA
365 Posts

Response Posted - 12/09/2008 : 21:32:52

Here in north Florida, diesel if going for 2.43 at best and gas is 1.67 but my Dodge 2500 diesel gets 22.3 MPG empty and 17.6 pulling a 4 horse trailer loaded. I had a gas powered Dodge 1500 (360 cu in) and only got 9 MPG pulling the trailer so I gladly pay the diesel premium. There is a dealership in Miami that is selling Dodge trucks at buy one get one free. You have to pay full price for the first an $3000 for taxes and fees for the second, but still it's a buyer's market

And what about those guys that bought a Dodge a few months ago with a promise from Dodge of gas for $2.99? Do they have to pay extra for every gallon?

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4303 Posts

Response Posted - 12/09/2008 : 21:38:59

I bought gas today here in Houston for $1.48/gal. Diesel was $2.56

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 12/10/2008 : 06:48:36

I am now more confused. I was aware that diesel was more expensive than gas, but thought the cost was offset by better mileage and fewer repairs. Last night I stopped by the library and picked up th elatest "Lemon-Aid Guide" - a used car consumer's report sort of book for the Canadian Auto Market. It strongly advises AGAINST diesel vehicles in general citing failures in lift pumps and fuel injectors in light trucks and cars. Apparently the cost of repair to the components offsets any gains from fuel savings. The diesels did have an advantage 5 years ago, but not now that fuel prices have turned the other way.

This is actually good news sincce most of the diesel trucks cost a lot more. So I need to revisit my shopping list and reconsider things.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 12/10/2008 : 09:15:07

If you only need a tow vehicle twice a year (like I used to do), you might want to look into simply borrowing/renting one for a day.

Edited by - on

Ed Cassidy
Captain

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USA
365 Posts

Response Posted - 12/10/2008 : 09:17:42

The advice against the 1998 to 2001 Dodge diesel was becasue of lift pump problems causing injector pump problems from the lack of lubricating fuel. The suggestion about the pre-1998 was because the Cummins 360 6 cylinder engine is used in a number of applications from generators to boats and in most cases, it is exactly the same motor with changes to the injector pump to put out up to 400 HP while the normal Dodge application uses the engine at around 180 HP. If an engine can survive in an over-the-road truck, puting out 380 HP for a million miles without overhaul, imagine what it could do in a 3/4 ton pickup detuned to only 180 HP. Sorry, I'll get off my soap box. I've been involved in one way or another with cummins diesels for 40 years and I have yet to find a better power plant.

Edited by - on

DoubleD
1st Mate

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USA
61 Posts

Response Posted - 12/10/2008 : 09:27:10

I have a 2004 Chev 2500 Diesel and I love it. I have had no repairs or problems. I had a gas Suburban before this and the diesel gets double the mileage. Diesel is 50 cents higher in Cincinnati, than across the river in Ky. Every once in a while diesel is within a couple cents of gas. When I bought the Chev, I also checked the Ford and Dodge, and found the Chev to be a lot quieter. I think the biggest factor should be the truck rating. I would never buy another 1500 truck, the 2500 has a great ride and doesn't strain while towing.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 12/10/2008 : 09:46:19

Good idea Don, and 6 months ago I would have agreed with you. Now I have 200 feet of driveway to plow, a car trailer that is surprisingly busy (one car flat deck), and a boat to launch/retrieve.

It really isn't surprising that th eAstro died considering what I put it through, and I feellike I got every one of the $1500 I paid for it out of that van/truck. Now its time to get something that reall yis up to the job... of course I'm a sailor so I'm trying to get a lot of vehicle for next to nothing. Its difficult, but I will find a way (Have a line on a Diesel 'Burban now for under $4000, but the Gas/Diesel debate rages on in my mind...)

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 12/10/2008 : 09:49:08

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Ed Cassidy
 The advice against the 1998 to 2001 Dodge diesel was becasue of lift pump problems causing injector pump problems from the lack of lubricating fuel. The suggestion about the pre-1998 was because the Cummins 360 6 cylinder engine is used in a number of applications from generators to boats and in most cases, it is exactly the same motor with changes to the injector pump to put out up to 400 HP while the normal Dodge application uses the engine at around 180 HP. If an engine can survive in an over-the-road truck, puting out 380 HP for a million miles without overhaul, imagine what it could do in a 3/4 ton pickup detuned to only 180 HP. Sorry, I'll get off my soap box. I've been involved in one way or another with cummins diesels for 40 years and I have yet to find a better power plant.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I agree that the Cummins is the exception to th erule - in fact the Lemon Aid Guide said about the same thing, that of the big 3, the Dodge is the best. Of course I can't justify what people are asking for the trucks with the Cummins engine in it. The trucks are likely worth the money, and I do feel that Dodge makes a decent product. I just wish I had the $$$ for one.

Edited by - Prospector on 12/10/2008 11:16:05

SailCO26
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 12/10/2008 : 11:45:40

I'm currently in the research-mode for a tow vehicle which will also double as a camper (slide-in type). Will be making the jump right after the first of the year. Like everything else, including sailboats: "it depends on what you want to do with it".

My $0.02...

Gas vs Diesel: If the majority of your driving is short hauls, go with gas. Diesels dont like short hauls, and the cost/mileage benefit wont pay out. If you haul long or heavy (or mountain), go diesel. The same goes for boat powerplants. Diesels love the long, working runs; but use gas for the short/light stuff. As an aside, if you're talking cars dont even bother with diesel - that was a marketing crock from the start.

Cummins vs PSD: I've always thought that Cummins is by far the best diesel powerplant available, and Dodge has always made a quality truck. However, over the years I've owned more Ford truck products than Dodge (3:1) and still prefer them. I just go in knowing that the PSD will require more maintenance. I've always found Ford vehicles are easy to work on - probably by necessity. I'll most likely be going with a 00-03 7.3 PSD for my next truck. I've heard a lot of negative things about the 6.0 PSD, so will be avoiding that (seems they're either great or terrible). And there's a reason the GM diesels arent even on my list.

delliottg: do you know the build date of your 99? I know there were issues with the early 99 ones, which is why my pick starts in 00. :)

Transmissions: I've yet to see a really decent auto transmission for hauling. Some of the Allisons are very respectable, but I've yet to see a slush box compare, especially unmodified. If you haul 2x/year, a stock auto is probably fine; if you spend your days towing all over, it's worth the effort to get a stick.

Rating: Again, if you short haul 2x/year you can get probably away with a 1/2-ton, just remember you're abusing it and expect to be treated the same in return down the line. If you haul heavy or hilly, it's worth going the 3/4- or 1-ton route.

Brand: This is where you REALLY get into the opinion part of the game. Everyone has one, and most are worth about only what you paid for 'em - nothing. I've never been much of a GM truck fan, tho the 1 I did have was still in decent mechanical shape when I sold it at about 180k mi. The Dodge products I've dealt with were solid and reliable, and the Fords were solid and easy to work with. Dodge might have even been higher up on my list had I been able to get a long bed w/o sacrificing crew-cab space.

Looking on the roads around here, the commercial work trucks seem to mostly be Ford and Dodge (slight edge to the Fords); with the high-count fleet public utility-types leaning toward GMs.

So if you're an occasional/light hauler, any will really do. If you plan to "work" more with it, I'd lean to the Dodge/Ford angle and work from there. But as said, it all depends on what you're going to DO with it!

Jim

Edited by - on

SEAN
Admiral

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USA
772 Posts

Response Posted - 12/10/2008 : 12:33:19

Jim great tips !!

I'm looking for a truck , i was wondering about gas or a diesel .....
a plow would be nice too !
i drive local so i could get a older truck to last .
I'm definitely getting a truck with paint this time

my 90 f250 has seen better days

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 12/10/2008 : 15:43:42

Jim,
I don't know when in 99 our F-250 was made. I don't have all negative comments about it. It'll haul our boat over the Cascades like it wasn't back there, no rise in temperature, but at about 10-11 MPG. I spent about $2500 in upgrades (intake, exhaust, chip, etc.) searching for the elusive 18-20 MPG. Well with summer diesel, if I'm very careful, I can get in the neighborhood of 17 MPG, with winter diesel, that's more like 14, both of which are far better than the 10-12 I was getting without any modification. When I was commuting with it, and fuel costs were over $300/month, that's when we decided to get a VW Jetta TDI (Turbo Diesel Injected). I calculated that I could buy the car & fuel for it for less than what I was paying in diesel a month for my Ford. The math doesn't work so well now that diesel is about half what it was during the summer, but it's still nice to only have to buy 12-13 gallons every three weeks, instead of twice that every two. And now that I've been laid off, my commuting costs have basically dropped to zero. While you might say cars with diesels are a crock, my VW gets about 43 MPG, and Rita's Mercedes diesel gets about 25 or so, which isn't bad for a 30+ year old car. I've probably put less than $3k into repairs on the Mercedes in the 10-12 years I've owned it (my dad had it before me, and my aunt bought it new), and so far, the VW has only needed it's 30k service.

The Ford on the other hand, I've probably put at least 2x that (not including the upgrades which don't count as repairs). It's stupid stuff too, fuel pump fails at 85k, glow plug relay fails at 100, door locks don't work properly, neither does the center console "computer" thingy (tells you mileage, direction, etc.), vacuum pump was broken when I got it (didn't know, or would have had them fix it first, found out when I couldn't shift into 4x4 from the cab in a snow storm), blown fuses, two new batteries, shift down thingy for towing (don't know it's proper name) failed, I'm certain I'm forgetting a few things, my diesel mechanic loves me. Oh, and now the windshield's cracked (hardly Ford's fault, but while I'm bitching...). I've sidelined the truck, I only drive it when I need to, I've even reduced my insurance on it. I've probably put 300 miles on it in the past six months or so, instead of 200+ a week. Fortunately it's paid for.

This is the 7.3 liter International engine BTW.

Edited by - on

Deltarat
1st Mate

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USA
69 Posts

Response Posted - 12/10/2008 : 21:16:06

Just my 2 cents,
I have a 1996 Dodge Ram 3500 extended cab, cummins turbo diesel with 447,000 miles, yes that is 447 thousand miles, the engine has not been rebuilt, or had any major repairs. It has gone through two transmissions before I got it (5 speed) and has had an upgraded Banks stinger turbo installed.
I use it for my construction business and it has an 9' utility bed on the back usually full of tools or supplies and tips the scales at over 8,000 pounds. I drive a mix of city and highway driving and generally get between 14-16 mpg. When I first bought the truck it had a flatbed and got over 17mpg.

I would recommend this truck it just keeps running, and seems to be able to tow most anything. The only part that drives me batty is paying on average .30 - .90 cents more per gallon than premium unleaded. I mean this is diesel we are talking about a bi-product of the gasoline refining process, why is it so darn expensive????

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 12/10/2008 : 23:11:48

Several things factor into the current diesel fuel cost. Diesel is a residual from gasoline refining until demand exceeds supply, but gas is also a "by product" when refining shifts to heating oil and diesel. Neither supply meets demand, it just offsets it a little meaning that as more crude refining is targeted to diesel, it becomes more expensive. Gas demand is down so there is less offset. The current requirement for low sulfur diesel means additional refining and cost; the impending standard for ultra low sulfur diesel will certainly increase the price in the next 3 years. Two other factors are important to me: environmentally, diesel is much dirtier and finally, my continued retirement depends in part on Exxon making lots of money.

As others have said, it depends on how you use your vehicle. My milage drops from 20 - 22 to 11 - 12 when towing Pearl, but I only do one round trip to Erie and one to Fl. each year so gas and E-85 (not when towing) work for me.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 12/11/2008 : 09:06:12

Anyone here tried running a large vehicle on natural gas?

I am going to look at a 'Burban tonight that has been converted to run either gasoline or natural gas. Natural Gas is a cheaper fuel, but does it offer the same power as gasoline? Diesel?

Any opinions?

Edited by - on

SailCO26
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 12/11/2008 : 09:23:41

Dave:

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by delliottg
 I don't know when in 99 our F-250 was made. I don't have all negative comments about it.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I think you can get the build date from the door sticker. I've heard some negatives about the early 99's, but builds around Feb/Mar 99 and later aren't part of that. Nothing major, but a laundry list of little things. Enough that I scratched 'em.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I spent about $2500 in upgrades (intake, exhaust, chip, etc.) searching for the elusive 18-20 MPG. Well with summer diesel, if I'm very careful, I can get in the neighborhood of 17 MPG, with winter diesel, that's more like 14, both of which are far better than the 10-12 I was getting without any modification.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">LOL, I think that's probably the same $2500 modification list I have, and I dont even have the truck yet! Whose intake, exhaust and chip did you go with? Good to know what I can "realistically" expect for mileage, thanks!

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">While you might say cars with diesels are a crock, my VW gets about 43 MPG, and Rita's Mercedes diesel gets about 25 or so, which isn't bad for a 30+ year old car.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Too funny - ironically, just as soon as I hit "post" I thought about a friend of mine's VW TDI that he absolutely loves - he claims closer to 50mpg tho. And while I've never been a fan of 'em, I have to admit that the diesel Benz's are bulletproof. But I'm biased about Benz's, I used to have a grey market 190E that I sold at 200k and still ran great, and still have a 1985 380SL that just rolled 75k.

Ok, I'll retract my comment about diesel cars! I think that was a holdover knee-jerk reaction from the 70's fuel crunch days.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The Ford on the other hand...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Fix Or Repair Daily ain't far from the truth! Like I said, they're easy to work on for a reason. Re the door locks and the overhead computer (and a lot of other good info), check out the forums on the FTE site (http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/forum31/). There's some GREAT 7.3 PSD info there, including "cheap" fixes for both of these problems. That site has been a HUGE help for me in my research.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">This is the 7.3 liter International engine BTW.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">As I understand it, IH used this powerplant in school buses, so it oughta function in a pu truck just fine.

[/hijack = OFF]

Jim

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 12/11/2008 : 11:51:27

Propane or natural gas? LNG is a very high pressure storage problem and not widely available, propane is more common. Our school district has been using some propane converted school busses for many years, but they no longer have a financial advantage. The energy per pound of liquified natural gas or propane and its lower density make for very short range on a tankful. Switching to E-85 costs me 25% - 30% in milage but $0 in milage cost; towing with E-85 would mean fill-ups every 150 miles - pretty slow going. LNG and propane have even less energy per pound than E-85. Diesel has about 10% - 15% more energy per pound than gasoline. I wouldn't pay a premium for a two fuel engine, but it shouldn't cause a problem just sitting there.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 12/11/2008 : 11:59:29

I forgot to mention that in my experience a properly equipped van can be an excellent tow vehicle if your preference lies in that direction. A used hearse also has an impressive GVWR and towing capacity.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 12/11/2008 : 12:27:26

Thanks Dave,

This one is Natural Gas/Diesel. Not propane. (Earlier I said it was gaoline - it was a mistake). It has very high miles, but the price is right ($2500) I am having a hard time finding any conclusive studies as to the viability of NG over diesel. THere seems to be a lot of propiganda on both sides. Apparently a Diesel engine is quite easy to convert to NG. I wonder if you can still burn veggie oil with a NG conversion. If it makes any difference, the Truck is a "Silverado 1500".

The van mention is interesting. I have been taking sidewise glances at full sized vans. I may look a little deeper into that possibility. Finding a 4wd passenger van with a long wheelbase that can take a plow may be tricky. This vehicle has to be able to plow the driveway. I just measured it on google earth, and the driveway is 18 feet wide and 190 feet long. plus the parking area by the house - another 25 X 50 foot section. (This doesn't include our second driveway where the boat is stored (25 X 80 feet) - we only clear the snow over there when we are having a party and the first driveway will be full. No wonder my arms are tired after a snowstorm. Of course rural living has many other benefits.

Edited by - Prospector on 12/11/2008 12:32:10

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 12/11/2008 : 20:32:42

Jim,
I had an Edge Juice (I think) chip & controller put in. I like that I can manipulate the settings on the fly, but in reality, I find that I almost never change the setting. I have it set to "race" because that's the setting I get the best mileage on. My diesel mechanic (25 years with Ford before opening his own shop) said to simply ignore the settings like "tow", "race", "extreme", etc. & test till I found the best settings. I do set it to "tow" when I'm towing, but there's no way to tell if it's doing much, my mileage is going to suck either way, and the truck already has so much power that using the chip to gain power seems silly.

I had a 4" exhaust & intake installed, I really have no idea who makes it, and a K&M (?) filter system as well. The chip seemed to make the biggest difference as far as mileage went.

How to know when your truck has needed way too many fixes? When your mechanic's daughter knows you by name & says hi and asks after your wife by name when she runs into you at the local Mexican food place. <sigh>

Edited by - on

glivs
Admiral

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USA
836 Posts

Response Posted - 12/11/2008 : 21:01:42

Prospector,
I know about driveways. Ours is about 750' long and gains about 25' elevation. After projecting the rising costs of contract plowing, we finally located an affordable (almost) Kubota 34hp and added a 6' snowblower - two passes and the driveway is clear! Great tractor/diesel - but I was quite surprised it could not pull our C22 up the grade. The Ford F150 did the trick but then we traded up to a C25 on a cradle. As for diesels, I had an '83 Mazda pickup that I put 183K miles on before giving it to a local high school kid who drove it another 2-3 years. I had very few problems with it and enjoyed the mileage....not much of a tow vehicle though.

Edited by - on

SailCO26
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 12/12/2008 : 08:43:22

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by delliottg
 How to know when your truck has needed way too many fixes? When your mechanic's daughter knows you by name & says hi and asks after your wife by name when she runs into you at the local Mexican food place. <sigh><hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">OOoof! I run into my Benz mech fairly regularly, but at least I'm known for being a long-time customer and friend-of-friends, rather than as a frequent visitor!
J

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