Association Forum - why is no one talking?

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

why is no one talking?

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

Page: of 2

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

Member Avatar

Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/17/2008 : 10:17:43

... about the Nationals?

Edited by - on

dave holtgrave
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
427 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2008 : 10:40:13

worlds going too fast and our dollar for gas is out of control.

there is nothing i would like more to do.
but, the cost is alittle too much.

i know this on lots of peoples minds.

dave holtgrave
5722 sk/tr
sailing on carlyle lake in southern illinois

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2008 : 11:20:14

On average, how many people actually enter the Nationals? Since I am not a racer I am not focused on this topic. I think it's a great thing for the racers and I hope it is succesful but I suspect many of us just aren't into that facet of sailing.

The price of gas certainly would change people's travel plans.

Edited by - on

Stardog
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
319 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2008 : 12:07:45

I used to follow a lot of racing and knew a number of people who competed on national and olympic level and some who did really well or won. It's been about 10 years since I payed attention and now the only races I watch are the local yacht club (Austin Yacht Club), and those only when I'm sailing up the lake trying to stay out of their way. I haven't looked to see who is competing in the Nationals, guess I should find out.

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2008 : 12:12:37

I crewed in 06 for John Vining and fully intended returning to Cleveland to race my boat in 07. Even bought a new 3/4 ton truck to pull my boat from Northern Michigan. The month following my truck purchase the cost of gas started to rise and made the trip a bit too expensive. It's even worse now including the added distance. Perhaps if they are held on Lake St Claire again I can make it.

Edited by - on

andy
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
228 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2008 : 12:29:25

I hate to say it, but based on the number of boats participating in the "nationals" the last few years, I'm hard pressed to consider it more than a race between a few guys that live near by (one days drive?). That's unfortunate.
The fact of the matter is, the expenditure is too great (in time and $$) to go race so few boats. We have a 7-8 boat C25/250 fleet race at least once a month in our club. All it costs is the $25 in gas to get me to the lake and back...Two years ago it cost $12.

Edited by - on

Stardog
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
319 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2008 : 21:22:39

It's really too bad, we used to have a fleet here on Lake Travis, but those who race have gone on to other boats or to cruising instead, so Catalina owners here have to race PHRF now.

Edited by - on

mhartong
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
152 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2008 : 22:47:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 On average, how many people actually enter the Nationals? Since I am not a racer I am not focused on this topic. I think it's a great thing for the racers and I hope it is succesful but I suspect many of us just aren't into that facet of sailing.

The price of gas certainly would change people's travel plans.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

As fuel prices continue to climb, I imagine that its going to have an increasingly more adverse impact both on the ability of people who are interested in racing to be able to afford to campaign their boats as well as non racers to trailer sailor significant distances.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/18/2008 : 08:43:02

How's the C-22 participation going? Of course, there are way more of them, with many one-design racing fleets, and they're a whole lot easier to trailer with a considerably more efficient tow vehicle... By comparison, the C-25 isn't even a one-design boat to begin with--three keels X two rigs = six versions, so five boats aren't likely to make much of a one-design fleet. And there's no current production--the C-250 that replaced it is a completely different boat with three variations itself, none of which are designed to appeal to racers.

How about another approach... For example: Award Nattional Championship trophies to the C-25 and C-250 skippers with the most impressive racing records in the country each year, as nominated by the membership and judged by the officers. The criteria could be fuzzy enough to recognize various achievements--number and importance of races, level of competition, boats beaten with/without handicap... I feel like that would be a more valuable form of recognition than a trophy for the winner among a few boats that are able to show up for one event in some distant locale. (Capri is a whole different issue--I'll leave that for another discussion.)

Then if you want gatherings, have a bunch--like the recent one in Ohio. I might drive a 150 miles to one in my 24 mpg vehicle--if a $+!nkp*++er is allowed in!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 06/18/2008 09:05:39

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/18/2008 : 08:48:58

Another idea would be to have a series of regional championships, culminating in a national. I would be likely to attend a great-lakes regatta, but unlikely to head to California. If I won the Great lakes regatta, th eaward would be to go on to the nationals. This would mean more races locally, and a "select group" at the national level. Of course, I assume this has been discussed before and nixed due to other issues (probably getting volunteers to run the events is a big one).

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/18/2008 : 08:55:19

Prospector: That model works for the J-24, Sonar, etc... People who want that model should get one and do some real one-design racing.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 06/18/2008 09:06:52

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/18/2008 : 08:57:59

BTW, dominating a local C-25 fleet racing season would be a strong criterion in my imaginary model, thus promoting local fleets. But an impressive PHRF record would also count...

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 06/18/2008 09:07:15

John Bixby
Navigator

Members Avatar

118 Posts

Response Posted - 06/18/2008 : 10:06:50

Was planing to go to OKC and drop by the Nationals while visiting
the daughter. Gas from Galveston to OKC and back is too much.
Over 300 plus a 9 hour drive. Can't justify the expense
john on ms achsa 77 FK/SR

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 06/18/2008 : 10:32:49

It seems the Nationals race weekend always falls on or near my other race weekend.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 06/18/2008 : 10:43:07

I was planning on going to OKC but with the price of airline tickets rising every day (it seems) and the free miles criteria have almost doubled I cannot justify the expense - it would destroy our travel budget for the year.
If the price of gas continues at the current level (or, God forbid) even higher, we probably should rethink our Nationals. I really like Dave's idea.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/18/2008 : 11:09:52

Note that we've now heard from two Texans who are passing on going to Oklahoma, and one of them is arguably our top lake racer, with probably the hottest C-25 on the planet (and he was going to leave it home).

(No smart-ass comments, Capri guys!

)

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 06/18/2008 11:14:10

Gambit
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
160 Posts

Response Posted - 06/18/2008 : 11:17:33

Unfortunately it is too far for us to travel. Me and a buddy crewed the last two years on At Last at Cleveland. You can only race those that show up so a thin number may just be the nature of the beast.

I could see going to a destination location and borrowing a boat, maybe bringing sails if that all was possible.

The live competitions can not be fully replaced but an additional evaluation of a racing season and crowning a virtual champion would be an interesting idea. Kind of like ranking of college football teams.

Good luck to all the racers this year. Have a blast!

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 06/18/2008 : 12:36:20

Dave - I appreciate the compliment, but have you forgotten about Gary Savage? He womped on me good on Lake Cheney!!

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/18/2008 : 12:57:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 ...have you forgotten about Gary Savage? He womped on me good on Lake Cheney!!

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...with your new main?

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5895 Posts

Response Posted - 06/18/2008 : 16:04:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by andy
 I hate to say it, but based on the number of boats participating in the "nationals" the last few years, I'm hard pressed to consider it more than a race between a few guys that live near by (one days drive?). That's unfortunate.
The fact of the matter is, the expenditure is too great (in time and $$) to go race so few boats. We have a 7-8 boat C25/250 fleet race at least once a month in our club. All it costs is the $25 in gas to get me to the lake and back...Two years ago it cost $12.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I've seen a number of national regattas of other classes on the Chesapeake Bay with about the same number, or fewer, as our C25 national regattas. Most of the participants are near enough to sail their boats to the race. That's why they hold the events in only the big venues. It increases the turnout. How many 25' boats would you realistically expect to attend an amateur national regatta?

We have a good system, moving our regatta around the country, from coast to coast, the Great Lakes, and to inland lakes. It enables more of our members to participate. If anyone thinks our national champs aren't good sailors, I would invite you to try your skills against the best who attend our events. You might be surprised.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 06/18/2008 : 17:18:43

Gary Sheppard ... is a Savage. He was practicing starts last night and will again tonight. His boat will sell to new owners the week after the Nationals. He has bought a Beneteau 28 Oceanis.

Edited by - on

wmeinert@kconline.com
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
353 Posts

Response Posted - 06/18/2008 : 18:39:32

OK, here's a thought, For the 2010 Nationals (which hasn't been decided on yet) we may need to think about this. Fine a club, lake, ocean, river or even a puddle that has five C-25's that they would be willing to lend out for the Nationals. Won't matter what rig or sail design plan, because we could create a round- robin series where every skipper races each boat! That way the racers/club champions would not have to pull their boats, but just show up and use the local boats. To modify this if the sponsoring club could find say five like boats with the same keels and standard rigged, then each participant could bring say their favorite sails and gear that they may want to use. We as the current officers have already discussed the gas price affect on this years current Nationals and what it may have on the 2009 on San Francisco Bay at the Berkley YC what will the price of gas due to that series? So we will definitely need to come with a solution. This is the first National in 8 years that I will have missed and it was not because of gas this year but a work issue with the timing. As a racer in the past I ust to tow 10-15K a year to race, now I'll be lucky to make 3oo miles this year. Keep talking about what we can do, we need it.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/18/2008 : 18:55:49

I am not trying to denigrate the skills or competitiveness of C-25 racers. But consider, for one thing, that the more serious among them tend to select the fin keel boat, which is not intended for trailering (and they probably don't have trailers). Unlike the C-22s and other national classes, this association will never be able to put its best racers in one location, and recently has only attracted a half-dozen of them to any location. Consequently, I've never sensed that there's much meaning to the title "National Champion"--except to one person per year who gets to be that, possibly because he had little or no competition.

My suggestion, totally open to disagreement and criticism, is based on a feeling that our "National Championship" could have more meaning if more people were able to compete for it. Thus, the "virtual" concept as "Gambit" puts it... Then, with the need for a national venue eliminated, we could focus on organizing regional rendezvous (on the water, in restaurants, or whatever) that accomplish the camaraderie that many would like to participate in. (BTW, how did the group-grope in Dayton go? Was that a good idea? Participation appeared to exceed our recent National Regattas...)

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 06/18/2008 18:58:48

andy
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
228 Posts

Response Posted - 06/19/2008 : 01:27:06

Steve
I would never imply that the guys who attend and place in the nationals aren't good racers. By definition, someone willing to spend the time and money to trailer hundreds of miles to a regatta is highly motivated and probably wouldn't be there if he wasn't pretty damn good. But does that regatta really represent the best C25 racer in the nation? That's what national champion implies.

How many C25's race on a regular basis. I doubt if anyone knows. I don't know the total number of C25's built, but it must be close to 6000. We've got 5 very competitive boats in our club alone. Bill Meinert came out and raced with us a few years ago and he would probably agree... and he's very fast.

A system like Bill mentioned might work. A national champion gleaned from fleet champions. All could travel to a site with enough C25's.
Rotate the boats each race etc. If somebody wanted to bring his own boat , he or she could, but it would have to go into the rotation. The only expense then would be for skipper and crew to get to the race site.
There are probably enough C25/250's in our marina to do that regatta (9-10).

Just brainstorming here. I love to race, love the boat, and there's a great group of people who sail 'em, as demonstrated by the contributers to this fourm. I bet a reasonable solution can be found.

Edited by - andy on 06/19/2008 01:32:22

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5895 Posts

Response Posted - 06/19/2008 : 09:03:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by andy
 Steve
I would never imply that the guys who attend and place in the nationals aren't good racers. By definition, someone willing to spend the time and money to trailer hundreds of miles to a regatta is highly motivated and probably wouldn't be there if he wasn't pretty damn good. But does that regatta really represent the best C25 racer in the nation? That's what national champion implies.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> The Cal 25s recently had a national regatta on the Chesapeake Bay. I occasionally crew for one of their best. I don't have the exact figures, but have to guess that they had about 15-20 boats racing - most of them local boats, but a small number from out of state. Since Cal 25s are sailed and race all over the US, from coast to coast, does that regatta really represent the best Cal 25 racer in the nation? Isn't it logical that there might be a Cal 25 racer in California, or Kansas, or Texas, who is better, faster and more skilled than the ones who happened to race in the Chesapeake Bay National Regatta? Of course it's logical. Likewise, is it logical to believe that, because Muhammad Ali was probably the greatest heavyweight fighter in history, there wasn't someone out there who could beat him? (We know there were such fighters, because he did get beaten.) Since he was beaten, was he really the greatest fighter in history? Was Luciano Pavarotti the greatest tenor of our time? Isn't it logical to believe that someone, out of the billions of people on our planet, had a better tenor voice? These are logical arguments taken to the extreme. I don't care about some stock broker who has a beautiful tenor voice, but who doesn't sing publicly. I care about the one who does sing publicly, so that I can hear him. Pavarotti might not have been the greatest tenor of our time, but he was the best I ever had an opportunity to hear.

The Rules of the C25 National Association declare that the winner of the C25 National Regatta is the C25 National Champion. That doesn't mean he's necessarily the best C25 racer in the nation. It means he's the best of all those who entered the race. You can't win if you don't get in the game.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">A system like Bill mentioned might work. A national champion gleaned from fleet champions. All could travel to a site with enough C25's.
Rotate the boats each race etc. If somebody wanted to bring his own boat , he or she could, but it would have to go into the rotation. The only expense then would be for skipper and crew to get to the race site.
There are probably enough C25/250's in our marina to do that regatta (9-10).<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> How many places have that many C25s available, and how many of their owners will be willing to do the hard work and expense necessary to prep them so that some out-of-town stranger can race his boat? Are you going to have the race in the same venue every year, using the same boats? Is it fair to keep the race in one place, or two or three places, thereby limiting the ability of our members to bring their own boats.

Doesn't it make more sense to continue moving the event around the country, so that we bring the event to the members, rather than bringing the members to the event? In your marina there are 9-10 C25s. We often have more than 9-10 people who bring their own boats to a national regatta. Why should we limit the number of people who can participate, just because we only have 9-10 boats? Are we also going to supply C250s and Capri 25s at our national regatta as well?

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 06/19/2008 : 09:09:02

Dave B,
You asked how the C22's are fairing. This past April, the Region 3 Championship Regatta was combined with the annual (C22 only) Chattanooga Challenge at Privateer Yacht Club in Hixon, TN, just outside Chattanooga. I've done the "Challenge" for several years now and it is always a great. The first year there were 28 boats, then it tapered down to around 15. This year there were 29 boats, including 2 former national champions; 16 in gold fleet and 13 in silver. My daughter and I took first place in silver last year, so I sailed gold this year. BIG mistake; we got slaughtered! Should have stayed in silver fleet.
FYI, PYC's C22 fleet has grown tremendously in the past 2 years. Per their newsletter, they now have 28 members, most of whom race, and they expect to hit 30 by year's end. Our fleet in the Nashville area has 10-12 members with only about 6 who race regularly, but we are also gradually growing.
In contrast, our C25/250 Fleet 36 is just getting started, we have 6 members, none of whom race, except for the little Wed. evening club racing that I do. And most of the time, I crew for a friend (and former C22 owner) on his Capri 26.
FYI(2): Our club, Percy Priest Yacht Club in Nashville, is hosting the S2-7.9 Nationals this year, first time ever to be held in the south.

Edited by - dmpilc on 06/19/2008 09:12:47

Page: of 2

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.