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why is no one talking?

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/19/2008 : 09:18:59

Just out of curiosity, how many of each boat will be at OKC? How many from out of town? How many additional participants (sans boat)?

Edited by - on

wmeinert@kconline.com
Past Commodore

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USA
353 Posts

Response Posted - 06/19/2008 : 13:15:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by andy
 Steve
I would never imply that the guys who attend and place in the nationals aren't good racers. By definition, someone willing to spend the time and money to trailer hundreds of miles to a regatta is highly motivated and probably wouldn't be there if he wasn't pretty damn good. But does that regatta really represent the best C25 racer in the nation? That's what national champion implies.

How many C25's race on a regular basis. I doubt if anyone knows. I don't know the total number of C25's built, but it must be close to 6000. We've got 5 very competitive boats in our club alone. Bill Meinert came out and raced with us a few years ago and he would probably agree... and he's very fast.

A system like Bill mentioned might work. A national champion gleaned from fleet champions. All could travel to a site with enough C25's.
Rotate the boats each race etc. If somebody wanted to bring his own boat , he or she could, but it would have to go into the rotation. The only expense then would be for skipper and crew to get to the race site.
There are probably enough C25/250's in our marina to do that regatta (9-10).

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

When I say five boats in rotation it does not mean only five crews, you could have twenty crews shoe up and just develop a rotation where there would be 4 races of five crews over say three days low point system will still work because not all fins win a race, skills will kick ass over equipment anytime. I'm all for having anyone who wants to drag a boat too, if you get five out of town boats you make a silver fleet like the C-22. What I see as our biggest problem is the lack of a one design boat for the nationals. We can do that by picking an exclusive design with in our fleet such as the SR/SK and let that boat alone be the true one design for RACING. This would solve so many problems and I feel it would enhance the racing world for us. Catalina makes several 30 ft models but there is only one one designed that is recognized as their one design. We can do the same thing. If we even picked the fin I would go out and buy one just to be in a one design. All this will take is a decision with in our organization to make it happen. Do I have a motion?

Edited by - on

dave holtgrave
Captain

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USA
427 Posts

Response Posted - 06/19/2008 : 20:41:55

bill
i like your idea.

it's similar to what hobie used to do for national and world championships with all new boats and rotating after a predetermined number of races.

your way would have nothing to due with the boat itself.
it would be strictly a crew vs. crew race.

where would we go from here to start the process??

sounds very exciting and i would participate if this was the format.

dave holtgrave
5722 sk/tr
sailing carlyle lake in southern illinois.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/19/2008 : 20:59:59

As Steve pointed out, getting boats might be more difficult than some might imagine. Out of let's say nine boats in one location, how many are the same rig/keel configuration with same headsails, adjustable/nonadjustable backstays, vangs, etc... and how many of those are interested in having their boats beat up for a few days--rigs re-tuned, bent pulpits at the starting line, fore-deck apes breaking their solar vents and skylights,...

I exaggerate, but just barely.

Edited by - on

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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1773 Posts

Response Posted - 06/19/2008 : 21:26:27

Well, I'm not a racer and I have no clue how others handle "Nationals" "Regionals" or "Six-Pack" races -- but ... maybe the issue is holding the Nationals where there is a concentration of C-25's AND have two regattas -- one for serious racers and one for novice guys (e.g. folks like me) so you can attain critical mass, deal with differences in boat configuration, condition, sails and skill and have a good party too boot.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/19/2008 : 21:48:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by bigelowp
 Well, I'm not a racer... one for novice guys (e.g. folks like me)...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...like a Super Soaker race!

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Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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3704 Posts

Response Posted - 06/19/2008 : 22:25:50

Interesting thread and too bad we can't get more racers together.

Our club is hosting the Santana 20 Nationals this year. We have about 25 of them at our club and another 15 or so coming in from other states for the event. Having 35-40 boats vying for the start line is something. I've crewed in that situation.

But then the Santana 20 is pretty much just a racer whereas the C25 is much more used as a cruiser and daysailer. You need that critical mass to get a big event going.

Edited by - on

andy
Navigator

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USA
228 Posts

Response Posted - 06/20/2008 : 08:30:47

Why do all the boats have to be the same configuration? If you rotate crews after each race and have the number of races=number of crews.
We race a mixed bag of configurations in our club races and handicap them using portsmouth ratings. I think it works fairly well. With this system you would have a truly equal crew test.

I think Dave is right regarding getting the boat owners to cooperate. I'll try to take an informal poll this weekend to see how some of our C25 owners would feel about participating.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/20/2008 : 08:41:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by andy
 Why do all the boats have to be the same configuration? If you rotate crews after each race and have the number of races=number of crews.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">You might get some whining from the crew that gets the tall rig on the really windy day, and the standard rig on the light-air day. In that circumstance, Portsmouth works against them.

But keep trying--there must be a way to get more crews to our Nationals than you can count on the fingers of one hand. (No answer to my earlier question about '08 participation? Is that the answer to Frank's original question?)

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 06/20/2008 08:47:39

andy
Navigator

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228 Posts

Response Posted - 06/20/2008 : 10:21:10

No doubt about the fact that in this particular scheme, the luck of the draw would play a large (maybe too large) factor...especially on a lake like ours with constantly varying conditions.

Edited by - andy on 06/20/2008 10:21:50

wmeinert@kconline.com
Past Commodore

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USA
353 Posts

Response Posted - 06/21/2008 : 15:15:26

As your Commodore (don't read in to this)I have in the last year had to re-think how and what are we going to do to foster and improve our standings at large? For the C-25 which is out of production they are now 32 years old and have depreciated in cost to around 3-6K maybe 7-8 with trailer. So what to do? We either have to move on to other boats that are newer and faster, or I feel we can take what we have and reinvent it. Because hands down the standard rig swing keel is the most produced model available, and probably the oldest too, and most have trailers it seems. I would like to recommend the following.
1. Designate the SR/SK as the exclusive "ONE Design" of the Catalina association for racing.
2. Put together a racing panel to determine all the limitations and class rules, This would include: the sail design, materials, weight limits, equipment, boat modifications allowed (no safety lines or pulpit)etc.... Bottom paints allowed, rudder design, motor size etc.. we could come up with the design.
3. Advertise this and campaign the new boats around the country and in the press. For someone looking to purchase a good dependable racing platform the C-25 can't be beat in the price range we are in.

This is not a new concept, The C-22 did kind of the same thing when Catalina stop producing the model, and they are trying to really come up with a one design for their fleet by limiting or opting out fins and wings to even the field.

I know that there will be a lot of cruisers out their who may feel left out, but this is about racing for racers who will make the changes with no effect on the cruisers. I have select the SR/SK because they trailer the easiest, and a tall rig owner can become a SR very easy by use of a hack saw and sewing machine. (a little humor there) But for us who like to race, have the boats I feel having a one design platform would encourage more opportunities.( I can hardly wait to read the feed back on this one!)

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/21/2008 : 16:26:25

Depending on whose stats you choose, Catalina built 13,000, 16,000, or 24,000 C-22s--a large percentage of them swing keels and I believe no tall rigs (?). That makes a very different population for the one-design standardization approach. (They primarily left the Mk II out, so Catalina introduced the Sport using the older molds for the one-design market, so the design is still in production.) Also the C-22 is much more easily trailered, launched and retrieved by a smaller vehicle than the C-25. And for whatever reasons, it has garnered a considerable number of one-design fleets around the country. So, what works for them won't necessarily work for the C-25 community.

Just my observations--I'll leave it to your fellow racers to comment further...

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 06/21/2008 : 20:14:09

Interesting thread. Seems like we talked about the very same questions when I was Secretary and Commodore of the Association. Some of the conclusion we made at that time were:

1. Many in the Association don't race
2. Of the racers man don't have trailers, so have no way to get their boat to nationals.
3. The gas prices started rising, making the trip more costly. (At that time gas was $2.50 - $2.75 per gallon.
4. We are not really a one design class.

Sounds like the same kind of comments made in this thread, but I hear all of wrestling with what to do.

One answer is to do nothing. Leave things as they are and crown the national champion as the winner of the National Championship. Next year the champion can choose the defend and travel to the next site or to not defend. And then a new champion will be crowned.

Keep on struggling with the question it is worthwhile and will benefit the association.

Edited by - osmepneo on 06/21/2008 20:19:19

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 06/21/2008 : 23:40:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Just out of curiosity, how many of each boat will be at OKC? How many from out of town? How many additional participants (sans boat)?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Does anyone have the answer to Dave's question?

Edited by - on

dave holtgrave
Captain

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USA
427 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2008 : 12:28:05

why not try a rotation like bill says!!!

it doesn't matter to me if i sail a keel or tall rig.

the thought would be the luckiest and most knowledgable sailor
would do good.

we would all spend the same time in each differant boat.

how many regattas have you been to that the winner had the best equipment??? for me, many.

how many regattas have you been to that the winner was in the right place at the right time for wind or shifts?? for me, many.

the competition is for enjoyment of meeting with fellow sailors who happen to like the same kind of boat.

take it in it's own sense.
if you win a national championship in the catalina 25 class will the san diego yacht club call you to trial out the next america's boat??

at carlyle we have people spending too much money on boats that are not sized appropreiatley for our lake. they just want to win the yearly championship.

do you know of these guys?? read about them in yachting world??

it's a sport!!!!!

someone above said that around 80% of the owners don't even race.
is this telling us anything??

let's try the rotation one year.
count me in to sail and i will volunteer to help any way possible.

there, you got one committment to sail in the 2009 nationals.
i don't even know where it is at but, i will be there if we rotate.

count me in on the format of how to set this up.

dave holtgrave
5722 sk/tr
sailin g carlyle lake in southern illinois.
to

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2008 : 19:28:56

Good for you Frank, you got the discussion going.

I'll bring my Ericson, I think I can squeeze it onto my 25 trailer.

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2008 : 19:56:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gloss
 Good for you Frank, you got the discussion going.

I'll bring my Ericson, I think I can squeeze it onto my 25 trailer.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5895 Posts

Response Posted - 06/23/2008 : 09:12:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by bigelowp
 Well, I'm not a racer and I have no clue how others handle "Nationals" "Regionals" or "Six-Pack" races -- but ... maybe the issue is holding the Nationals where there is a concentration of C-25's AND have two regattas -- one for serious racers and one for novice guys (e.g. folks like me) so you can attain critical mass, deal with differences in boat configuration, condition, sails and skill and have a good party too boot.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> The people who bring their boats to our national regattas are not all serious or even experienced racers. Often, people go to meet other C25 sailors and enjoy the camaraderie and the parties. Sometimes a really talented racer, like Derek Crawford, lives too far away to bring his own boat, but is available to helm someone else's boat. If Derek isn't available, you can usually find experienced racers to crew for you, and help you race your boat. There's really no reason why even an inexperienced racer shouldn't bring his boat and race with help from experienced racers.

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osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 06/23/2008 : 10:55:43

Steve makes a very good point. Folks who bring there boats to Nationals are not all hot shot racers, or even experienced racers. They come to have a good time, meet people they've talked to on these forums and learn a little about sailing their boats.

When I sailed with Steve a few years ago I came away with a whole new storehouse of racing knowledge. Thanks Steve.

The next year I helmed a boat for a couple that had never raced and were new to Catalinas. We took 2nd place in the 250 class and I think the people I sailed with learned a thing or two.

The next nationals I attended I crewed for a an inexperienced racer and on the first day there were just two of us and it was fun learning how to sail with just the two of us.

I guess what I'm saying is that while there are reasons why many don't come to Nationals, there many good reasons for people to come when its close to home.

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