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Bilge Pump discharge - duh?

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britinusa
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Initially Posted - 06/09/2008 : 18:26:32

The final prep for our Bimini Cruise on Friday is the automatic bilge pump.

Electrics all done, the control panel is just above the OEM electrical panel on the stdb side of the cabin.

The pump is in the bilge (duh!) and the float switch is glued to the bilge bottom (didn't want to drill any holes down there!)

The last part of the system is the discharge.

I considered adding a new thruhull on the port side near my AC unit discharge.. another hole!

Considered 'T'ing it into the sink discharge with a one way valve to prevent discharge squirting up from the sink drain.

Then the admiral suggested 'T'ing it into the existing bilge pump hose that normally lays in the bottom of the bilge, (but I put the elbow in that hose as someone on this forum suggested) but finding a one way valve for that hose is not so easy.

Then I thought "Hang on a mo!, why not just connect the automatic bilge pump to the existing manual bilge pump hose?"

Let me clarify:
The electric bilge pump is one of the 800gpm type with a capsule motor that's easy to replace.
Basically that pump consists of a spinning centrifugal pump vane in the bottom of the pump housing. The water is spun outwards up and around the outside of the pump and then out of the discharge port.

If I connect the end of the manual pump hose in the bilge to the port of the electric pump, then the manual pump will still work normally (it'll just suck the water up though the pump housing)
And the electric pump will pump the water up the hose, through the manual pump and overboard.

This sounds toooo simple!

Any gotchas here?

Paul

Joint Decision. (Sold)
PO C250WB 2005 Sail # 841.

Moved up to C34 Eximius

Updated August 2015

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 06/09/2008 : 20:36:58

Wont the manual pump mechanism - which is inline with its hose - be in the way and block the discharge from your electric pump?

I would also think that forcing the manual pump to such water through the electric pump will reduce its pumping power.

Not a bilge pump expert, just wondering.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 06/09/2008 20:38:28

britinusa
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Response Posted - 06/09/2008 : 21:02:10

Randy, the manual pump's ability should not be affected.
The electric pump would simply act as a strainer.
The design of the electric pump allows water flow through it. At least that is my observation.

I agree, the issue is "Will the manual pump allow water to pump through it? I guess I'll try it and see.

Paul

Edited by - on

Russ.Johnson
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Response Posted - 06/09/2008 : 21:03:03

Paul,
I think the manual bilge pump mechanism will block the output of the electric.
The good news it should be easy to test.
Russ

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 06/09/2008 : 21:45:48

It just makes me uneasy. If I were relying on that manual pump I wouldn't want it to be "filtered" by anything. Maybe you can make it easy to disconnect the electric pump from the end of the hose.

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 06/09/2008 : 21:52:17

NO! NO! NO! Each pump should have its own exit, and each exit should be as high on the hull as resonably possible. Neither pump should impede the other, and any blockage in one should be taken care of by the redundancy of the other. Manual pumps rely on a pair of one-way valves that can impede the electric pump, and have a bellows that can fail, putting water back in the boat. DRILL THE HOLE--it's the best one you will ever make.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 06/09/2008 21:56:00

britinusa
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Response Posted - 06/10/2008 : 06:46:14

Good points Randy & Dave.

There is a lot of stuff down there though:
Thruhull for AC cooling inlet with seacock,
Tube from seacock to AC pump(with electrical supply)
Pump,
Pipe from Pump to AC unit (port side).
Tube for freshwater power wash (from under the sink, across bilge, up port side)
And now Bilge pump, Float switch.

It's getting really crowded down there!

But your points about redundancy are valid.

Don't you wish the manufacturers would come up with a manual bilge pump that had a T for an electric pump discharge though!

I have some $WM, I'll go buy another thruhull and run it up the port side with the power wash and make a second discharge point near the AC discharge.

BTW, I think that the manual pump valves would simply open under the pressure as they do when the manual pump is utilized, and the filter for the electric pump appears to be pretty much the same (partical sizewise) as the manual bilge pump tube end filter.

I wonder what RULE thinks about this?

Paul

Update. I just sent emails to both whale (Compac 50) and RULE.

paul.

Edited by - britinusa on 06/10/2008 06:59:18

Champipple
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Response Posted - 06/10/2008 : 07:30:08

In order for what you want to do to work you will need to Y or T the hoses after both discharges and have a reverse flow type connector so you don't put water back into the boat. You cannot flow one through the other. especially runn the electric through the manual. As Dave mentioned there are also one way valve that help to develop pressure in the manual pump and also keep the water from running back into the bilge.

The one way flow valve on your T connection is going to impede your flow. God forbid you ever need those in an emergency that hole is going to be the best thing you ever put in the boat.

Edited by - on

britinusa
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Response Posted - 06/10/2008 : 07:33:38

Duane,
I ran the pump in a bucket.. wow! that's a lot of water to discharge! I'd probably be turning in cirles if the discharge is at the side

Points accepted. 2nd thruhull it is!

Thanks guys. I'll let you know if either rule or whale respond.

Paul

Edited by - on

britinusa
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Response Posted - 06/10/2008 : 08:35:45

Reply from RULE:
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">You can use the existing bilge hose to connect to the electric bilge
pump but you have to remove the manual pump from the system. The
electric pump would not have enough discharge volume to safely empty
the bilge because of the back pressure caused by the manual pump. We
would recommend that you install a new hose for the manual pump. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Paul

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 06/10/2008 : 08:38:05

I'll apologize if the mfgrs say I'm wrong, but... Every check-valve and T reduces the flow of the electric pump by a significant precentage. You want to be able to use both pumps in an emergency--each at top efficiency. It comes down the the KISS principle.

Edit: I'm vindicated, for once!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 06/10/2008 08:40:07

Champipple
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Response Posted - 06/10/2008 : 10:26:35

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by britinusa
 Duane,
I ran the pump in a bucket.. wow! that's a lot of water to discharge! I'd probably be turning in cirles if the discharge is at the side

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Don't think I ever mentioned the side???at least not in this post

Edited by - on

farrison
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Response Posted - 06/10/2008 : 10:30:12

Paul;

Three years ago I hooked my electric up to my manual hose just as you are suggesting. I did not have add any Ys or checkvalves. The electric pushes water through the manual pump valves just fine, and the manual will pull water past the electric impeller just fine (I even tested them in unison). I am a lake sailor and for me, this system is great. If I were going to sea, maybe I would drill the second throughhull. If you've got so much water coming in that you need both pumps with completely seperate pick-up/discharge systems, then you've got bigger problems than flow rates.

Paul

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 06/10/2008 : 12:02:07

OK, call me crazy

but I don't have an electric bilge pump. Didn't have one on my C22 either. Neither boat leaked a drop and I look at an electric bilge pump as an unneeded complication.

Paul, you trailer sail. I have felt that the best use of an electric bilge pump is for people who slip their boats and may be away from the boat for days. For your Bimini trip wouldn't a functioning hand pump and a bucket do the trick if you sprung a leak? A major blow to the boat will overwhelm your little electric pump and quickly run out the battery anyway. Seems to me that folks who trailer-sail would have less need of an electric bilge pump.

OK, educate me.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 06/10/2008 12:03:13

Champipple
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Response Posted - 06/10/2008 : 14:29:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 OK, call me crazy

but I don't have an electric bilge pump. Didn't have one on my C22 either. Neither boat leaked a drop and I look at an electric bilge pump as an unneeded complication.

OK, educate me.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Reasons why I had an electric Bilge Pump on the 25 -

1 - I'm Lazy
2 - The windows Leaked when we first got the boat
3 - Peace of Mind
4 - One wave or rainstorm with the hatch open
5 - stuff happens

Edited by - on

JimB517
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Response Posted - 06/10/2008 : 15:02:28

I teed mine into the manual bilge pump discharge aft of the manual bilge pump. I have a manual valve I can turn off behind the manual pump and before the Tee, but water would have to flow uphill for the electric pump to pump backwards through the manual pump and back to the bilge. If this ever happened due to radical heeling/sinking, I can close the manual valve.

Everything is double clamped even though it is above the water line. Tee stuff and valve is all PVC from Home Depot.

I have the electric pump sitting in the keel well and wired directly to a battery.

Adding some kind of alarm would be a great idea and may have saved my previous boat.

Edited by - on

Tom Potter
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Response Posted - 06/10/2008 : 15:28:34

Here's a interesting [url="http://www.yachtsurvey.com/bilge_pumps.htm"]read[/url] on bilge pumps.

Edited by - on

John Russell
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Response Posted - 06/10/2008 : 15:51:15

Given what we've just read about bad things happening very quickly, I wonder if it's a good idea to have a valve that needs to be turned to get a bilge pump to work properly. Let's think about something that isn't worst case scenario but nonetheless potentially very troublesome. Say that you're sailing along. Say that you hit something that puts a hole in the hull. Or, maybe a thru hull pops a leak. Not a catastrophic hole but you're taking on water pretty quickly. Say you have to find that hole and then find something to plug it. Do you really want to have to take even a few seconds to turn a valve or re-direct something?

I also think that it doesn't make any sense to take the manual one off line. There's nothing wrong with a little redundancy.

Edited by - on

piseas
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Response Posted - 06/10/2008 : 16:11:36

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 I have felt that the best use of an electric bilge pump is for people who slip their boats and may be away from the boat for days.
OK, educate me.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

ok call me crazy

I have a slip and I am away from the boat for days, maybe 7 and I dont have an electric bilge pump. I do check the bilge before each sail.
Steve A

Edited by - on

Tom Potter
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Response Posted - 06/10/2008 : 18:04:22

Expanding on what John is saying.

Say for some reason you have a hole and water is leaking in. You want to find the source and stop the leak if possible. But you also have to get the water out the boat. If your stuck at the stern stroking the manual pump, who's looking for leak. I wanted to be free from the manual pump to make repairs etc.

That was my thinking when I decided to install my Rule 1000. I would rather be prepared for the possible leak, than not.

A trailer sailed boat can strike a floating tree stump as easy as a boat that is kept in a slip. A lake sailor can strike a submerged object same as a coastal sailor.

Edited by - on

piseas
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Response Posted - 06/11/2008 : 12:07:10

Tom, once again you make fine point. I shouldn't bet I wont hit anything, as good as a sailor as I am. And you also mention doing repairs. What do you keep on board. I will bet most who have electric bilge pump, have nothing for making small repairs. Forget big one, I am sunk!
Steve A

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JimB517
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Response Posted - 06/11/2008 : 12:51:28

You don't have to turn a valve for mine to work. You can turn a valve to isolate the two pumps if needed for some unforseen reason.

The reason I put the electric is that I sail solo far offshore. If there is a leak I need time to find it and fix it, I can't pump and fix leaks at the same time.

These boats are very unlikely to have a leak of a volume that the pumps can handle. Either you get a big hole and sink quickly (no matter how many pumps), or have a leak around a through hull or something so minor a few pumps per hour would take care of it.

We have few through hulls and for the most part no inboard engines (where most leaks happen).

Edited by - on

redviking
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Response Posted - 06/12/2008 : 07:12:13

We have a 2000 GPH pump wired to 15 feet of cable and split to a cig lighter plug and to the adaper plug for our Honda generator. We also have 20 feet of the cheaper flexible hose attached to the pump. Gotta emergency? Plug it in and discharge while rigging a collision mat. Should the water level foul the batteries, out will come the generator.

The collision mat is essentially my riding sail with longer lines attached. I keep the longer lines in the storage bag so that I can rig it quickly. I would also stress having plenty of those wooden plugs and a hammer handy...

Nice to see Dave VINDICATED yet once again! What's this, number 1478? or did I miss a couple?

Sten

DPO C25 #3220 "Zephyr", SR, FK
SV Lysistrata - C&C 39 - Newport RI

Edited by - on

DaveR
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Response Posted - 06/12/2008 : 08:11:40

Hope for the best ...... prepare for the worst. I wouldn't own a boat without a bilge pump. I even have one in my 14 ft tri-hull. Ever launch your little power boat at the ramp and forget to put in the plug? Stuff most definitely happens!

Edited by - on

britinusa
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Response Posted - 06/12/2008 : 09:20:18

The wooden plugs are ok for plugging thruhulls, but for hull damage I vote for poly bags! our boat has very little hull that is 'in the cabin' most of it is in a locker, under the vberth/aft berth, in the trunk. Other than that it's outside the liner. So it should be easy (ha!) to plug a split with polybags and then hold them in place by jamming something on top of them, maybe a sail bag, trash can, whatever. If it's above the water line then poly bags on the outside. We also carry the 2part epoxy filler, no use in a rush!

Paul

Edited by - on

John Russell
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Response Posted - 06/12/2008 : 10:53:59

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by DaveR
 Hope for the best ...... prepare for the worst. I wouldn't own a boat without a bilge pump. I even have one in my 14 ft tri-hull. Ever launch your little power boat at the ramp and forget to put in the plug? Stuff most definitely happens!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">No, but if you ever wonder why a little O'Day Daysailer isn't moving much in a fair wind, ya might wanna check the bilge plug that's IN YOUR POCKET!!!

...

Edited by - John Russell on 06/12/2008 10:54:43

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