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Wheel Steering II

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Initially Posted - 08/23/2002 : 23:10:08

It seems that after 69 people read this post and only 1 responded, I must be the lone ranger on this steering problem, and apparently no one has upgraded their cable system as Mr. Edson had claimed. I beg humbly again, has anyone faced this issue, I'm looking at 5 boat dollars for the conversion.

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Bill Holcomb
Admiral

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Response Posted - 08/24/2002 : 10:48:40

Can't give you much info, but a couple at my marina traded up from their Capri 22 to a used C250 last spring. They put the C250 in the water this spring and had the steering cable fail during their first sail on the boat.

They upgraded the steering to a "push/pull" system. I didn't help with the conversion, so can't help any with info about that. They do say that the boat steers much easier now.

However, as Don Street says, "if you have wheel steering, it isn't whether the wheel steering will fail, it's when if will fail that's the question." If your's is "bound up" with two 90 degree - sharp turns; difficult to steer; and causing obvious chafe - it's time to change. For my money, I'd change to a better system rather than stay with the system that I know breaks down fairly quickly.

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

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Response Posted - 08/24/2002 : 11:35:46

Bill Thanks for the experience and response,

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Dave Nees
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Response Posted - 08/26/2002 : 11:53:23

To: Gclarke

I just read of your dilemna. I am the guy who converted from push-pull steering in the catalina 250. I would highly recommend it! The other option would be to trash the Edson pedestal and go to a tiller.
Bill Holcomb referred to me in his e-mail from Snickerdoodle.

You have to change to a pull-pull system. It is smoother and more reliable. We recently purchased a 1995 250 and it had a push-pull system which broke when we were sailing in fairly strong winds. Thank goodness for catalina`s emergency tiller handle.

There was no one with any experience with Edson steering locally so I began working with Edson. To replace the old system with a push-pull cable was $314 according to them. The pull-pull upgrade was $519 with the shipping. I began the process of dismantling the pedestal and sort of learned how everything worked as I went along. The conversion directions which Edson sent did not offer the detail which I would have preferred. It did go together and works better than the old system which did not feel right to either my wife or me from the first time we sailed the boat. Edson should have done this way in the beginning.

It took me 10-12 hours for the conversion. Much of the time when I was routing and connecting the cables I wish I could have hired a midget to complete the rudder connections.

Hope this is helpful to you as I am well aware of what a problem this can be.
Contact me at nees1@msn.com if you have additional questions.

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Dave Nees
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Response Posted - 08/26/2002 : 11:56:21

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cathluk
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Response Posted - 08/26/2002 : 12:12:19

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
It seems that after 69 people read this post and only 1 responded, I must be the lone ranger on this steering problem, and apparently no one has upgraded their cable system as Mr. Edson had claimed. I beg humbly again, has anyone faced this issue, I'm looking at 5 boat dollars for the conversion.

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

G-

What was the issue again? I must have missed that post (busy at work last week - only browsed the subject headers). We have a C250 with wheel steering & have only had 1 problem in the 3 years we've had the boat (a pin that we should have checked came loose & we lost steering - thankfully it fell out when we were away & we noticed it before getting underway). I'm not sure if I have push/pull or pull/pull - how can you tell?

Cathy
"Blown Away"
'97 C250WK #253

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mday
Navigator

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Response Posted - 08/26/2002 : 12:48:33

G

I have wheel steering and read the posts. To my knowledge, I don't have any problem with the old single cable system. This is not encouraging news, however, and I plan to do an inspection for wear right away. And to make sure my emergency tiller is handy! This also explains why the more recent Edson catalogs show the small boat steering system with two cables and the single cable system is no longer avaialble.

Keep us updated. There are plenty of us out here with wheels that will benefit from any further info.

Max Day
C250 WB 380
Lake Pleasant, AZ

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Response Posted - 08/28/2002 : 12:54:36

"Blown Away", Kathy, The early C250's from 1995, through possibly 97-98 with wheel steering had a single cable which is attached to a chain in the pedestal, and it is routed to the rudder bracket. The single cable is set up so that when you turn your wheel right the cable "PULLS" on the rudder and turns the boat one direction. When you turn the wheel left that same cable then "pushes the ruder in the other direction...ergo a "push-pull" system. In 97-98 Catalina realized that this method put a lot of stress on one cable, and that pushing was not as efficient as pulling. So Edson designe a new system which has two cables, both hooked to the chain in the pedestal. As you turn right, one cable pulls the rudder in that direction and the 2nd cable just follows the pull,,,,as you turn the wheel in the other direction the 2nd cable pulls the rudder in the opposite direction, and cable number 1 just passively follows. Ergo the "pull-pull" system. If you look behind the aft battery
and see just one cable looping around on the starboard side you have the early "push-pull". If you see a looping cable on each side, ( two cables) both culminating to a bar off the rudder, then you have the newer "pull-pull" system.

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jmorrical
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Response Posted - 08/30/2002 : 00:27:27

I sail a 1999 250WK hull #401. This thread made me interested to find what Edson system was installed on my boat. It has the older one cable "push-pull" system. I suppose the upgraded "pull-pull" came on later hull #s. It has been working well so far.

Jim Morrical
Trilogy III
250WK #401

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Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 09/03/2002 : 09:50:50

Hi Gary,

I don't know what you decided to do about your steering problem, but I thought I'd pass this along in case you've decided to convert to a pull-pull system. I ran across this listing on eBay this morning:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem& item=1856393920

If you click on "view seller's other items" you'll see that this guy has listed several components for an Edson pull-pull system that he says are new ... they are also much cheaper than buying from Edson direct. I don't know if they are the parts you need or not ... 'figured it wouldn't hurt to pass it on.

Good luck.

Buzz Maring, C-25 SK/SR #68, "Freya"

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Response Posted - 09/03/2002 : 11:23:28

Thanks, buzz for the info. I did actually order Edsons package direct from them last week. many of you especially, Dave Nees who has done the changeover, have been very helpful with your ideas. When the kit arrives I pass on whatever I learn to the group. One thing that stands out in the Edson information regarding wheel steering on the C250, is the recommendation " TO LUBRICATE THE STEERING CABLE ONE A MONTH" . I need to ask Edson....How? How would you get the lubricant into the full length of the cable? Is there a zirk type fitting to place on the end? Does anyone currently lube your steering cable...and if so How?

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Damon
Deckhand

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Response Posted - 10/01/2002 : 12:45:45

I've got a 1999 250 wing keel on a freshwater lake. Last month the steering failed. I find the comments about the emergency tiller to be rather humorous as I don't have one. I steered with the sails - hadn't done that since I was a kid at camp!

Sounds to me like this item should be recalled. I can envision much more disasterous conclusions that no one would want to be a part of, nor responsible for.

Thanks for the comments and advice.
Regards,
Damon

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bdehuff
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 10/01/2002 : 18:09:18

Damon,

How (exactly) did your steering fail? Is your's the "push/pull" or "pull/pull" version?

I have a 250(hull #427)with wheel steering, which delivered mid-1999, but which Catalina soldme as a "year 2000 model" boat. I'm unclear when the change was made from one type of steering cable system to the other. Mine has two cables coming out the bottom of the steering pedestal, so I guess mine is what is described as the "pull/pull" variety. Mine has not failed in 3+ years (yet!).

By the way, if you bought your boat new from Catalina and did not receive an emergency tiller - they owe you one. This should be standard equipment. Mine came with one. I'm sure they would send you an emergency tiller if you explain you did not receive one. In any case congratulations on being able to steer back to port with just your sails. How was it actually docking? How strong was the wind? I've read about this technique, but never actually tried it.

Blair Dehuff
"Tahoe Dream"

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Response Posted - 10/01/2002 : 20:25:00

Blair. Yes if you have two cables routing out of the bottom of your pedestal. And if you look past your aft battery and see the cables routed from each side to meet in the center at the rudder bracket....yes you have a pull-pull system. Which is the newer and current system. I just changed from the old 1 cable system, and it took two of us working pretty hard, and fast, 5 1/2 hours to accomplish the changeover. Are you moored at Tahoe, or do you trailer. I live down in the Valley below Sacramento, but I buzz through Tahoe about every 6 weeks to do business in Reno and Winnemucca, and Elko ( Mining customers) Sometime I would like to see your upgrades, you know steal some ideas. I've had my 250 for about three years, and basically sail Lake Berryessa, where I have a slip. By the way when installing the Pull-Pull system I noticed that Edson's instructions said that we should lubricate the cables monthly ! My question is how???? I'm going to Call Edson tomorrow and inquire..Because I'd guess no one is lubing those cables at all, let alone once a month>
GClarke C250 WB Left coast

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Ben - FL
Admiral

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Response Posted - 10/01/2002 : 20:41:20

I like a tiller w/ tiller tamer, tiller extention, and auto-tiller!
Sorry, can't help you with the wheel.

Safe voyages,
Ben, FL s/v Chick-a-pea C250wk

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Damon
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Response Posted - 10/16/2002 : 12:45:52

Blair et al.,
Indeed mine is the push/pull.

I have some new info that I find pretty interesting. Mine failed because the cable pushed through the casing (or sheath) where the cable makes a 90 degree turn coming down from the pedestal and heading aft towards the rudder arm. In talking to Edson today, this is common because most installers made that 90 degree angle to harsh. It should be a big slow curve. But because of the berth below the pedastal, most installers tried to make it a tight turn so the cable didn't protrude into the berth area. If you've got a good gust and there's a little too much resistance from your rudder, the cable will just pop through at that harsh turn.

Well that's what happened to me anyway.
Damon

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Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 10/17/2002 : 09:47:59

I have the wheel and took delivery in Jan of 96 and have had no problems with the linkage other than the mod to double up the set screws holding the cable sheath in place and add a stop for the actuator arm which restricted its movement.

However, I am taking the news of failures with prudence... most of my sailing is done during an extended summer cruise and next year we (I married again two weeks ago) will make that three weeks. A steering failure is not wanted during that cruise as the pilot is relied on often.

Giving some thought to reworking the steering... I will likely go another route than the $512 for the Edson upgrade. Roughly remembering the inside of the pedestal from installing the set screw upgrade... I don't think it would be difficult to fabricate open cable steering conections.

It would consist of two turning blocks on inside wall of transom, a shaft with two sheaves under the pedestal and attachments to the chain or drive sprocket within the pedestal. The vague area is of course the pedestal attachments... but I have a small machine shop with lathe and milling machine...and should be able to come up with a solution.

I will start this project in near future and offer a report of feasibility and cost.

In doing so, if a slightly more favorable wheel to rudder turn ratio (more wheel movement) could be realized...it would be a plus.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224

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ssteakley
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Response Posted - 10/27/2002 : 11:29:01

Well I looked yesterday and I have the single cable push/pull system. I definietly want to learn how to lubricate the system!.. I am not ready yet to spend $500+ on the upgrade and will move my emergency tiller to the Port side cockpit locker! My wheel is a 99' from the factory. There is a tight bend as the cable comes out of the area above the berth so I will watch that area closely. I have sailed in lots of strong winds and only once did the wheel seem "tight". So Lubrication will be the first order. If anyone knows the correct lubrication meathod, it looks as if several of us need to know, and any detail on the kit part number and any special installation tips would be helpful from those of you who did the work yourself.
Thanks to everyone for helping us pay attention to the Wheel system!
Steve Steakley
Moon Chaser #385WK

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Buzz Maring
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Response Posted - 10/27/2002 : 11:49:29

So Lubrication will be the first order. If anyone knows the correct lubrication method, it looks as if several of us need to know - Steve

Even though I've got a C-25, I've also got an Edson wheel ... I'd also like to know the proper way to lubricate it. Fortunately, my cable makes a big snaking circle on its way back to the rudder, so I don't have any tight bends to worry about, and there doesn't seem to be any binding in the cable.

I took the compass and plate off the top of the pedestal last time I went to work on my boat. All I could see was some sprockets and a chain (much like a bicycle chain), but there was no obvious way to lubricate the cable. As a last resort, I was considering squirting some 3-in-1 oil down there, and hoping for the best (while asking Neptune for his blessing).

If anyone knows how to lubricate the cable, it would be a big help to lots of us ... thanks!

Buzz Maring, C-25 SK/SR #68, "Freya"

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ssteakley
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Response Posted - 10/27/2002 : 22:04:18

Ok,
just to help...today I deciced to spray some "Harken Sail Kote" on the rod that connects to the rudder and the connecting parts, Like Buzz I sprayed some WD-40 on the chain and sprocket a few months ago when I had the compass off the pedestal when I was installing a pedestal guard......We need more information.....(whoops, the emergancy tiller will not fit in the cockpit locker....will just have to keep it on top of the stuff in one of the cabin storage areas!)
Steve Steakley

Edited by - ssteakley on 10/27/2002 22:06:27

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Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 10/28/2002 : 10:26:01

Its been several years since I had mine apart to add the set screw modifications... so hope no one holds me to too fast to my description. The cable routes into the lower area of the pedestal and the jacket terminates into a boss with a set screw to hold the fitting on the end of the cable jacket. The cable extends vertically to make attachment to the chain which is simply looped between two sprockets...one on the wheel shaft and the other on an idler shaft lower within the pedestal. I do not recall if the cable has a rigid shaft portion on the end... but it seems that it must.

The chain itself is greased...and I don't think should be coated with WD40 or such. Any liquid lube would simply run down and end up on the berth cushions. To lubricate the interior of the jacket....would be a hassle...lube would have to reach the rigid shaft portion that enters the cable jacket and only in an amount that could be accepted by the jacket...more than that would find its way to the berth cushions. And, in my opinon...the lube should be a grease which would mean dissasembly of the pedestal to gain access.

I will pull mine apart in near future to assess the possibility as stated previously to construct an open cable steering system.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224

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DougA
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 10/28/2002 : 14:06:13

OK. I did most of the upgrade this weekend and will finish it today. I have been taking digital pictures throughout the entire process and will post as soon as I can. I may ask for help posing them. The only way I can see to lube the old single line is to disassemble it and grease it as it is reassembled, not a small job. The pull-pull system has a lot fewer parts in the pedestal. I lubed the lines as I was assembling them and don't see any way short of disassembling them to regrease them.

Doug A., C250wb, San Franciscp Bay area

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 10/28/2002 : 15:28:26

Looking forward to seeing the pictures. Does the pull pull conversion result in the same wheel to rudder ratio? Does the chain remain a part of the newer system? If so, how are the cables driven (pulled)? Does the new installation require a wider turn sweep into the berth area? Could you post any drawings of the upgrade?

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224

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DougA
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 10/28/2002 : 20:47:21

Inside the pedestal, everything below the top sprocket and housing are removed. So that long aluminum casting with the chain and everything all the way to the tiller arm is gone. The new system consists of a chain that goes over the sprocket with a cable attached to each end and they attach to the tiller arm from either side.

There is a new bracket that attaches from the bottom that terminates the cable tubes and a new bracket that attaches to the transom and terminates the other end of the cable tubes, one on each side of the tiller arm.

The wheel to rudder ratio is controlled at the tiller arm coming through the transom from the rudder housing. There are several holes in it and the ratio is adjustable at that point by moving the attachment closer to or farther from the transom, I used the same hole as before so have no change. The turn into the berth is a little tight but I was able to use the same slot through the bulkhead and reattach the cover in the berth area.

Most of the parts are shown in the Edson catalog, I can give page number and part number if you have one.

I plan to start writing tonight and hope to post tomorrow.

Doug A., C250wb, San Franciscp Bay area

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ssteakley
Captain

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Response Posted - 10/30/2002 : 22:16:03

Doug,
when you get the pics, I will be glad to help you post them,
Steve Steakley

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jmorrical
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 05/26/2003 : 17:40:31

It's my turn to revive this thread.
We were sailing in 10-12 knots of wind Saturday when my Edson steering failed. Thanks to the emergency tiller we completed the afternoon and evening sailing. The wheel turns the boat to port, but not to starboard.
Can any one offer advice? I have seen step by step explanation at http://www.catalina25-250.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2103. Is there some linkage that has disconnected or is it a complete failure that needs to be replaced? I'll upgrade the steering to the pull-pull system if it is not repairable.

Jim Morrical
Trilogy III
250WK #401

Edited by - jmorrical on 05/26/2003 17:57:23

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