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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Da mon wit da bigga boat, him got da ridaway

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1981capri
Navigator

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USA
175 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/03/2008 : 13:01:10

We had a nice little sail yesterday. Light west winds and flood tide on the Columbia river. Just what the CP25 likes. Got out with a bunch of bigger boats that came out, C36 and several around 40 ft. When we first got out there was hardly enough wind to hold sail shape so everyone was just sitting facing up river. Then it came up to about 5 knots and we were on the windward side of the river so we started to move. We got on a broad reach and jibed a few time to stay in the wind and got a nice head start on the bigger boats heading up river. After a while I notice that two of then were catching up and had gone to wing on wing with poled out jennies. We had been making pretty good VMG on broad reach but I decided to try wing on wing and pulled the jenny across. It took a little balancing to keep the boat under the sails without a pole, sailing a little bit to lee, but we started pulling away again. We had a nice relaxed sail up river about 5 miles and then we decided to head back and turned into the wind. We came back by the two boats that had been following us up river. They both turned around, short of where we had turned, and started following back down river. We were on slightly different tacks so staying on close haul we were crossing paths mid channel. There was better lift on the port tack, but starboard has right of way. As we started getting closer to the marina and the wind was picking up a little they were closing on us. Finally the C36 tacked to starboard early and cut us off on our port tack and we had to give way. The tactic failed however, because he lost his lift that he would have gained on his port tack and we went by him again on our next port tack. On our final starboard tack heading into the marina, the other boat, I'm not sure what it was, 40+ ft something with crew of 8, was on port tack, getting the lift and accelerating and on obvious collision course. As we were closing I was looking this beautiful sleek boat and marveling at the 1000 sqft or so of radial cut racing sails. We were almost on top of them when I heard the skipper on the other boat clearly give the order to his helmsman "hold your course" and so we dropped off, gave way and went in just behind them. As we passed the helmsman turned and smiled, waved and said "Thank You". I guess the guy just couldn't handle getting out run by an ugly little CP25. Anyway, as the captain on the ferry boat in the BVI says, Da mon wit da bigga boat, him got da ridaway.

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Alan Clark
Captain

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406 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2008 : 20:16:31

YA MON... No Problem!

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 03/06/2008 : 13:50:09

Around here we call it the law of tonnage

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/06/2008 : 15:20:58

Tonnage, smonnage... It says just about everything about the kind of people who can afford those boats, versus the kind in little 25s.

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SailCO26
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 03/07/2008 : 09:29:58

We usually call it the "Right of Weigh".

Besides, unless we were actually racing I'd have given him the benefit of the duck anyway. It's a lot easier for me to duck him than for his crew of 8 to tack/duck, esp if we were as close to the marina as it sounds in the post. Still low of the skip to call the hold, tho.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/07/2008 : 13:56:35

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by SailCO26
 ...Besides, unless we were actually racing I'd have given him the benefit of the duck anyway... Still low of the skip to call the hold, tho.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Granted I wasn't there... The trouble is, as stand-on, you're supposed to hold course so you don't both duck at the last moment and create a new problem--unless you see that he isn't behaving, in which case the recommended move is to tack away, not duck. To be kind, at a greater distance, set your course visibly below his and then everyone's happy. But yes, that command was inappropriate.

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1981capri
Navigator

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USA
175 Posts

Response Posted - 03/07/2008 : 16:29:27

There really wasn't any question if we were going to challenge his 15,000 +/- lb racer/cruiser YACHT with our little 3000 lb dinghy boat. I think the guy was just determined to catch us before we got back down river and that was his last chance. I felt like a rabbit being chase by some greyhounds. I find that a lot, in light winds boats will fall in and start to follow us. I think it is a testament to how easy the CP25 is to sail and get the most out of every little puff.

Edited by - 1981capri on 03/07/2008 16:42:59

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5895 Posts

Response Posted - 03/07/2008 : 18:06:46

I drive the boat the same way I drive a car - I don't always insist on my right of way, even though I'm entitled to it. Sometimes I'll let a car out of a side street when I'm not required to do so, and sometimes I yield to another boat when I'm not required to do so, purely as a courtesy. For example, if I'm not racing, but am about to cross tacks with a boat that is racing, I'll usually pass astern of him, so I don't interfere with his racing or cost him time.

Also, when both boats are cruising, if another boat can almost cross ahead of me, but not quite, I'll motion for him to cross ahead of me, because it takes a lot of effort to make a significant alteration of course in a bigger boat, especially if it is shorthanded, and I see no good reason to make him go to that much effort when I can bear off a few degrees without any effort at all.

The important thing to remember when you do that is to be absolutely sure that you communicate your intention very clearly, so there's no misunderstanding. I never do something like that, however, unless I have made eye contact with the other helmsman and can see that he understands my intention. If you yield to the other boat as a courtesy, and a collision occurs due to a miscommunication, you will probably be liable for the accident, so you must be very careful.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/07/2008 : 18:13:02

Right! ...in other words, do it early and make it obvious. I always try to make my course changes and intentions as obvious as possible, and hate when other skippers sorta meander around so you're not sure what their intentions are.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5895 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2008 : 06:56:05

Re-thinking the original situation, it could be interpreted two ways.

(1) Perhaps the guy who said "Hold your course" wasn't talking to the helmsman. Perhaps he was talking to you. You said that he said it loud enough for you to hear it clearly. Was he making eye contact with you when he said it? If he was saying it to you, then he was telling you that he intended to tack or to yield to you in some manner, and that you should hold your course.

(2) or, Perhaps the guy was, as you originally believed, telling his helmsman to hold his course, believing that you might yield to him, even though you were not obliged to do so. In that case, you had two choices. You could yield to him, purely as a courtesy, or you could insist that he yield to you. The best way to insist that he yield to you would have been to hail him, saying "Starboard," loudly and clearly. That would have been the polite, yet seamanlike way of saying "Tack off, big boy, or I'm gonna T-bone you, and your insurance company will pay the damages." In that situation, it was entirely your choice as to how you responded to him.

Personally, if I thought he was a novice, who might not know the rules, I would have yielded to him. If I thought he was an experienced sailor or racer who was just testing me or playing with me, I would have hailed "Starboard" while looking him squarely in the eyes.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2008 : 08:49:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 ...hail him, saying "Starboard," loudly and clearly. That would have been the polite, yet seamanlike way of saying "Tack off, big boy, or I'm gonna T-bone you, and your insurance company will pay the damages."<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Don't count on that. Under the rules, the stand-on vessel is required to avoid collision if the give-way vessel does not. (Steve knows that.

) But going upwind, a last-minute duck by the stand-on, if simultaneous to a sudden duck by give-way, can lead to more trouble. (Shall we dance?!) Generally, if give-way doesn't give, stand-on should give 5 blasts and tack away--then ask him if he knows what COLREGS are.

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