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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

kick up rudder with a wheel

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Slider
Deckhand

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USA
7 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/27/2008 : 00:41:02

I am looking to buy a 250. However, the depth in my canal can go anywhere from 5 ft to 2 ft depending upon the season and tides. I realize a WB 250 would work fine in these conditions, however, I am considering a WK as I am in saltwater and she will be in saltwater, so I think a WK might work best for me.

My question is, can you have a kickup rudder with a wheel and WK?

I think a WK would be OK even if the tide goes out and the depth gets to the 2.5 ft. range, however, I am concerned with the rudder at that depth. If it were a kickup, I could just pull up the rudder and let the boat just rest on the keel without worry.

Slip sliding aweigh......

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2008 : 08:46:22

I have a WK with a kick-up rudder. I've never really understood why the PO bought this combination but, I don't really see any down side. I'd assume the keel will whack whatever would cause the rudder to kick up and that whackage would stop or divert me me short of the rudder.

As to the question about the wheel/kick-up combo, I'm in the school that thinks boats of this size should have a tiller. So, I can't help you there.

Edited by - on

Turk
Admiral

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USA
736 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2008 : 08:55:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Slider
 

I think a WK would be OK even if the tide goes out and the depth gets to the 2.5 ft. range, however, I am concerned with the rudder at that depth. If it were a kickup, I could just pull up the rudder and let the boat just rest on the keel without worry.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hmmmm . . . The draft on a WK is more like 3' 5" I believe. When you get stuck in mud, it's rough gettin out. Don't ask me how I know!

Edited by - Turk on 01/27/2008 08:56:37

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2008 : 13:41:42

Wheels with transom hung rudders are "odd" enough, wheels with transom hung kick-up rudders seem discordant.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 01/28/2008 : 11:22:00

Slider, each person has to select a boat that best meets their needs. I have the wheel steering and regular rudder. I love the setup (not withstanding C25ers who just don't get it

).

I also have a wing and like it for the extra headroom. On the other hand, the wing will get stuck in 2 feet of water so I don't see how the kick-up rudder will help you.

Paul lives in Florida and has the WB and I expect he will chime in here soon. One of the fine things about the 250 is the choice of WB and WK. Each excels in its own way.

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 01/28/2008 : 21:03:33

Yes the WB is faster, especially against a WK stuck in mud.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/28/2008 : 22:19:38

2-1/2' is pretty thin water for the WK. You're planning on carefully balancing the boat, or some some guy-lines? And if it sinks a foot into the mud, will it come back up? Probably, I guess... But getting in and out of your canal is going to involve constant timing.

Sounds like a WB situation to me. I'm not sure why you're concerned about that in salt water. It's a whole different animal from the C-25 swing keel.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 01/28/2008 22:21:17

willy
Captain

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USA
422 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2008 : 15:25:35

I have a WB and I can tell you it works fine in the Ocean. I take it through the Indian River Inlet that goes from the Indian River Bay to the Atlantic Ocean and there are times going through when I look around while in the trough and see nothing but water (no horizon) and then ride to the top of the wave and see land again! I have been out in 6' seas with no problem or feeling of insecurity. I do recommend the Ida kick up rudder as it has a bit more bite and will allow you to motor through your canal. To get an idea how the WB performs on bigger water you may want to go to Arlyns Website (see the Links section of this website) and watch his download of his Lake Huron crossing! Unless you are going to the Bahamas and crossing the Gulf Stream...something I wouldn't recommend with either version of the 250...you should be fine with a WB. You will not find a boat that feels as solid and "big" anywhere thats going to meet your draft requirements! The "ditch" from my slip to the open bay gets pretty shallow which is exactly why I chose the WB! I do have and prefer the tiller for a 25' boat and have found the Davis Tiller tamer to work perfectly!

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2008 : 17:34:40

With global warming inevitable, I think a WB would better suite you. Check out some of the photos members have sent showing how dry out there it has gotten.
Steve A

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2008 : 21:18:22

Steve, global warming will make the ocean deeper!

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2008 : 21:47:31

Bill, we have the WB as Randy mentioned.
Not been over to your neck of the water yet, but have been up to Pensacola and into the lower keys.

We have enjoyed several places that would basically have been off the map in a WK, some accessible at high tide.

We have been out the cut into the ocean and loved it.
The bottom edge of our rudder is pretty much level with the bottom of the raised swing keel. So we even leave the rudder in place while towing.

What's the water like on the inside of longboat key? Will you go out via Gulf Drive bridge or under the John Ringling pky bridge? (Maps google shows the area pretty well.)

Edited by - on

lewalskim
1st Mate

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USA
70 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2008 : 07:00:50

Bill,
I'm just north of you in Safety Harbor Marina and I sail in upper Tampa Bay. You're right, during winter we get higher highs and lower lows that put most of the sailboats in my marina on their 3.5' to 4.5' keels. I have no problem motoring out through my "canal" (I can look UP at the people who are walking out to the channel edge during the low lows) until I get to deeper water.

My '96 WB with wheel and 1st gen kickup rudder was a sailing learning experience in higher (10-15kts) winds. I felt that the boat was very tender and my wife and young kids didn't like the heeling. I rounded up quite often until I learned to rake back the centerboard and be quick to slightly ease the sheets during gusts.

My biggest heartburn with a WB is the centerboard pennant system. I have gone through 2 SS cables and am on my second Vectran line. I think that even I could have designed a better system that took less effort to raise and lower.

Although I don't sail in the Gulf, I sometimes sail in the main part of Tampa Bay and have sailed across the main channel between Anna Maria bridge and the Skyway when I brought the boat up the IC from Ft. Myers. I have encountered what I consider challenging seas (for a novice sailor in a 25' water ballast boat) and after learning about the CB raking and how far the boat would heal before rounding up, I actually enjoyed my sail.

I have looked at similar size Hunters, Rhodes, Precisions, you name it, and have come to the conclusion that I have bought the best boat for the money. I hope that you can enjoy one too.

Edited by - on

zebra50
Captain

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USA
408 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2008 : 10:22:13

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Frank Hopper
 Wheels with transom hung rudders are "odd" enough, wheels with transom hung kick-up rudders seem discordant.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I have a WB with a beaching rudder, and wheel steering and find that the combination works great. Edson system controls the steering with no problem and the few times that the keel has hit something that has also contacted the rudder, have caused no problems. The only difficulty is getting the rudder to come up when pulling on the line attached for that purpose for beaching or hauling out.

Edited by - on

Slider
Deckhand

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USA
7 Posts

Response Posted - 02/03/2008 : 18:04:06

Thanks for all the great posts, that’s what makes this forum so valuable for people like me who are looking to buy a C-250. Useful input from current owners.

Mark with your WB, Wheel and kick-up, it sounds like you have a combination I may end up with. My last boat was a Capri 22, the one before that was a Morgan 38 and I found I preferred a wheel. To answer your question about Sarasota Bay, it is a great place to sail. We are on the south end of Longboat Key, so we go out using New Pass.

If you ever head south, I would recommend you come down between Anna Maria and Bradenton off of Tampa Bay, or go through Longboat Pass and then head south down the ICW into Sarasota Bay. It is one of the prettiest streches of water on the West Coast of FL. I wouldn’t advise coming in through New Pass or Big Pass, unless it is during the day and conditions are good. Approach both of those passes from the south as they both have shoals on their north sides.

Unless you sail in an area where 6 ft. is considered “deep water”, it is hard to appreciate the need for a kick-up type rudder. My experience is that when you run aground, the rudder is the thing that often keeps you stuck. If you can lift up the rudder and spin around using the outboard, it is usually pretty easy to get off.

The main reason I think I might prefer a WK is my impression that a WB is not a good choice if you plan on leaving the boat in a salt water slip, year round. It seems like you would be setting yourself up for rust issues with the centerboard fittings. However, it sounds like there are a number of WB in saltwater full time, so, I will continue to look into that option.

Thanks for all your comments, they are appreciated.
Bill

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 02/03/2008 : 19:10:51

Bill,

I think you might want to take a harder look. I can't really imagine the scenario that would allow the wing keel to move forward but kick up the rudder. Maybe if you hit something submerged at just the right angle.

I bought a fixed keel boat for the reason you stated. Although not in salt water, the swing keel option would require more maintenance that I really didn't want to do or pay to have done. But, I was looking at C25 swingers, not C250's. The difference is significant. The C25 has a large swinging keel that could cause significant, if not catastophic, damage to the boat if it failed. The C250, on the other hand, has a center board, not a keel. That is significantly less weight (around 1000# if memory serves me right). The ballast is in the water tank.

If I was concerned with hitting the bottom in skinny water, I would definitely be looking at the Water Ballast (with kickup rudder)version of the 250 or even the swinger on a C25 before I'd look at the wing keel/kick up rudder combination.

Edited by - John Russell on 02/03/2008 19:13:24

willy
Captain

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USA
422 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2008 : 09:31:01

Bill,
Regarding the issues around the centerboard on the WB, they can be a bit inconvenient but not catastrophic. The later models probably come standard with the vectran line instead of the wire, and while my 03 did not, Catalina provided me with the refit at no charge. It was not difficult to change out, and I keep an extra length of vectran on the boat at all times. Running a replacement line through the tube below the block and tackle is easy and requires only a two minute dive with a mask to attach it to the centerboard should you be stuck in the situation where it must be done in the water. I really don't think salt water is the issue with this system, but the engineering itself which seems to pinch the line from time to time when you bring the board up. This adds causes chafe and wears the line out. All boats have issues and require compromise, and the 250WB is no different. What you do get here is an extremely solid, heavy boat feel without the draft that usually accompanies this.
Willy

Edited by - on

Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1913 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2008 : 18:14:42

I'm just curious if anyone has ever heard of a center board breaking due to grounding?
After reading this forum for almost 4 years, I don't recall of it happening.

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2008 : 21:20:11

Tom... for the most part, a grounding will simply see the center board pivot aft and hence why a beaching rudder is also a good choice with the water ballast.

However, I did do some damage to my center board once when striking a submerged rock. I'd moments prior raised the board and slowed to about two miles an hour in preparation of entering a cove in the North Channel when contacting the rock with the now exposed top of the board (area above the axle).

The damage was minor and the repair pretty simple but did of course require removing from the boat. I stored the board in the house leaning against the water heater for two months to ensure it was well dried prior to the repair.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2008 : 21:47:02

Arlyn got the worst spot--the rock must've been up there! Hitting the board below the pivot shouldn't do more than ding it--as I recall, there's only about a 100# weight toward the bottom to keep it down, so the board should swing up pretty easily. (The weight is effectively lighter under water). The C-25 1500# swing keel is another story, but it's solid cast iron, so the rock is in about as much danger as the keel.

Edited by - on

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