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 Is a C-250 the Right Next Boat?
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MartinJW
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USA
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Initially Posted - 01/02/2008 :  22:32:12  Show Profile
As I mentioned in another post, my wife and I have spent the past 4 summers sailing a Capri-16 or a Catalina-18. (The move from the 16 to the 18 was our first upgrade.) Mostly we daysailed, but we've also done lots of 3-4 night "campouts" on the boat. We've absolutely loved both boats, but we're ready to move up. Here are our criteria:

Relative to the 16 and the 18, we'd like:

(1) a "real" flush toilet (yeah, I know, this is a "head") with a little more privacy

(2) a basic sink (so that we don't have to go ashore each evening to brush our teeth)

(3) enough cabin room so that we're not moving stuff out into the cockpit each night to get into the berths (This gets very tiresome after about 3-4 nights on the boat.)

(4) an electric-start engine (my wife has a bad back and is unable to use a pull-start outboard as might be necessary in an emergency)

(5) Trailerability makes sense, I think. We keep the boat in a slip on Lake Tahoe during the summer, but year-around moorage would be cost prohibitive for us, so we haul it out during the off season.

(6) anything else that increases comfort and convenience above the levels afforded by ~16-18' sailboats

Our budget is, barely, $40k for a new boat. We've found that it's easier and cheaper for us - in the very, very long term - to simply buy a new boat equipped exactly as we want it, rather than to buy a used boat.

Given these criteria and our general satisfaction with our previous Catalina boats, we think that we should bypass the C-22 and go straight to the C-250.

What do you think? Does this make sense? Would we be happier buying a used C-270 or 28?

Any recommendations, ideas, suggestions, interesting anecdotes you'd like to share?

As always, THANKS for your help!

Martin & Kali
Lake Tahoe (more or less)
2007 C-18 mk II #707 (but perhaps not for long...)


C25/250 Int'l Ass'n Member
2008 C-250 WK #973
"Bluebell"
Lake Tahoe, CA/NV

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 01/02/2008 :  22:38:30  Show Profile
Forget the C-22--you described the C-250 to a "T", especially since you didn't mention "standing headroom". (The WK is close, depending on your height.) Anything larger (27-28) you won't be hauling home on a trailer--you'll be storing it in a boatyard.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 01/02/2008 22:53:42
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dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 01/02/2008 :  23:01:05  Show Profile
Playing the devil's advocate here, Martin, if your wife has a bad back, who is going to help you rig/derig the bigger boat?
On the plus side, I'll agree with DaveB, the C-250 could be a good fit, and I would not recommend going directly to anything bigger than 25-26 ft. if you are considering trailering it. Find someone who has a C-250, who will let you help him rig it, and go out on it, if possible, before you sink a lot of cash into one. What tow vehicle do you have now, and will you need to upgrade that also? If yes, that's going to eat into your $40k budget.

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MartinJW
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Response Posted - 01/02/2008 :  23:06:09  Show Profile
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Dave Bristle</i>
<br />Forget the C-22--you described the C-250 to a "T", especially since you didn't mention "standing headroom". (The WK is close, depending on your height.) Anything larger (27-28) you won't be hauling home on a trailer--you'll be storing it in a boatyard.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks, Dave.

After our C-16 (barely crawling-around room) and the C-18 (barely sitting room), the C-250 seems like a castle (even though my wife and I are of average height). Yes, we'd be buying a WK version.

Thanks again,
Martin

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MartinJW
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USA
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Response Posted - 01/02/2008 :  23:14:48  Show Profile
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by dmpilc</i>
<br />Playing the devil's advocate here, Martin, if your wife has a bad back, who is going to help you rig/derig the bigger boat?
On the plus side, I'll agree with DaveB, the C-250 could be a good fit, and I would not recommend going directly to anything bigger than 25-26 ft. if you are considering trailering it. Find someone who has a C-250, who will let you help him rig it, and go out on it, if possible, before you sink a lot of cash into one. What tow vehicle do you have now, and will you need to upgrade that also? If yes, that's going to eat into your $40k budget.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Your points are all well-taken, David. Thanks for responding.

We rent a slip for the summer, so there's really only one rigging and de-rigging each season. Luckily, I have another nearby relative who loves to sail (and, most importantly, has a healthy back) and is happy to help with these chores each season.

We looked at several C-250s last summer and really like this boat.

We only tow the boat about 50 miles (total) each year - 25 miles to/from the slip/storage location. We have a vehicle that can do this in an emergency (5,000lb towing capacity, more or less), but we have several friends with full-sized trucks that we can borrow twice each year. They gladly do this in exchange for sailing time with us each summer.

Thanks again,
Martin

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John Russell
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Response Posted - 01/02/2008 :  23:30:38  Show Profile
I lovingly refer to my C250 WK as the "pop-up camper" level of comfort. BTW, I have a porta-potti which I think is most common, not a "flush toilet" a.k.a. marine head.

I'm a little confused. You are interested in the trailerability of the boat but in your last post, you described the way I use my boat. I rig it in the spring and take it down in the fall. Transpporting to a storage facility for the winter isn't trailer sailing. So, I think that isn't the real concern. It might make more sense economically if you simply look into winter storage at your marina if that's possible.

One last thing, if you're thinking about going longer than the 250, look to the C30. I think there's more bang for the buck over the 270 or 28. In the $40k neighborhood, you should be able to find a terrific C30.

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MartinJW
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Response Posted - 01/02/2008 :  23:48:30  Show Profile
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by John Russell</i>
<br />I lovingly refer to my C250 WK as the "pop-up camper" level of comfort. BTW, I have a porta-potti which I think is most common, not a "flush toilet" a.k.a. marine head.

I'm a little confused. You are interested in the trailerability of the boat but in your last post, you described the way I use my boat. I rig it in the spring and take it down in the fall. Transpporting to a storage facility for the winter isn't trailer sailing. So, I think that isn't the real concern. It might make more sense economically if you simply look into winter storage at your marina if that's possible.

One last thing, if you're thinking about going longer than the 250, look to the C30. I think there's more bang for the buck over the 270 or 28. In the $40k neighborhood, you should be able to find a terrific C30.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You're right, John, I wasn't clear about the trailer issue. What I really mean is trailer STORAGE ability. Storing a C-250 in the marine yard is roughly $300 (or more) per month, and there are lots of other fees on top of this. Since we have the boat out of the water for 7-8 months each year, the annual storage cost is, roughly speaking, $2,000/year. The trailer is "only" $5,000 or so, which pays for itself in about 3 years. (I can store the boat on the trailer near my home for $0 or in a nearby storage facility for about $50/month.)

I got tired of hauling out the ol' Portapottie every couple of weeks on our C-16 and C-18. As I get older I find that servicing and transporting a portable toilet gets more and more tiresome. A "real" toilet (more or less) seems like an incredible luxury, and we're looking forward to, uh, "using" it.

Also, as much as I would love a C-30 (or 309 or whatever it is), I can't afford to spend upwards of $5,000 each year for slip rental, winter storage, insurance, etc. I figure my annual moorage, maintenance, and storage fees for a C-250 would be about 1/2 of what a 30-footer would cost. Maybe I could squeak a few extra bucks out of our (already tight) budget to move up to a 27, but that's probably my upper financial limit.

Thanks for the response!

Martin

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Frank Hopper
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Pitcairn Island
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Response Posted - 01/03/2008 :  07:06:16  Show Profile  Visit Frank Hopper's Homepage
If you like the Catalina 250 you owe it to yourself to look at the Hunters. The Hunter 26 is a best buy on the used market, the 260s are getting cheaper, and the 27 is the new boat, all are basically 25' boats with marketing spin on their length.
I say this because the 250 has been a complete failure on our lake; seldom sailed and sold quickly to other venues. While the Hunters are used often and kept year after year. I have a theory on this that is very un-PC on this forum, I think Catalinas are bought by better sailors and they are then disappointed in the 250's sailing characteristics, Hunters are bought by newbies and they do not know that other boats sail better.
As to potties; have you ever used Mr. Slurpy? Do you know what emptying a marine head is like? Ever heard people talk about the pumpout station being down?
Finally, to have a $40k budget and not get standing head room seems really short sighted, you have done the move up thing, buy this boat as if it were your last, head room is the most important thing there is as you age. A 270/27 sits next to your house just as well as a 250 and depending on your situation a 28 travels a few miles just fine as well. A 28 is a very stately boat with a real enclosed head, the 250 enclosed head is a marketing response. My guess is that a 250 will be another interim boat for you.

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John Russell
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Response Posted - 01/03/2008 :  09:39:27  Show Profile
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Frank Hopper</i>
<br />... I say this because the 250 has been a complete failure on our lake; seldom sailed and sold quickly to other venues. While the Hunters are used often and kept year after year. I have a theory on this that is very un-PC on this forum, I think Catalinas are bought by better sailors and they are then disappointed in the 250's sailing characteristics, Hunters are bought by newbies and they do not know that other boats sail better.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Un-PC, Frank? Yep, particularly for a former Commodore.

Martin, I think that you'll find any number of 250 sailors that will tell you that the 250 meets not only their needs but their wants as well. Randy, Paul, Frank (AADiver), Henk, Tom, Turk, care to chime in here? Particularly Turk since his circumstance seems to be much like Martin's.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">As to potties; have you ever used Mr. Slurpy? Do you know what emptying a marine head is like? Ever heard people talk about the pumpout station being down? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I hope you understand, Martin, that you will not be able to flush your head overboard in any inland lake. My marina has an adapter for the pump-out station that allows me to simply insert the hose into the porta-potti and empty it without removing the tank. This gives the best of both worlds -- no holding tank and plumbing to worry about and easy emptying. You can also connect a pump-out line to a porta-potti as Randy (Nauti Duck) has described in this forum.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Finally, to have a $40k budget and not get standing head room seems really short sighted, you have done the move up thing, buy this boat as if it were your last, head room is the most important thing there is as you age. .... My guess is that a 250 will be another interim boat for you. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Frank makes a good point here. $40k is a LARGE budget for this boat market. Obviously, you're considering a new boat, but, a late model, previously enjoyed 250, can be had for half that amount. Remember, we're talking about a plastic bucket with an aluminium stick. What real wear and tear can occur in a few years? If this is going to be an interim boat, or even if it's not, consider the used boat market. Particularly if budget is really an issue. You can spend another few thousand making the modifications you might want and still be well under $40k. The only exception to this might be if you're considering a saildrive rather than an outboard motor.

If Frank's right, there must be a few opportunities in Kansas.

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 01/03/2008 :  10:31:04  Show Profile
I should ammend my statement that larger boats can't be hauled home... Friends of mine stored their C-30 on a trailer in their yard--they had a professional hauler get it there and back. (It is, of course, a very heavy, wide load.) And yes, some very nice C-30s are within your purchase budget, but all other things on a C-30 cost more--engine maintenance (and repowering), sails, and systems. It's a huge step up from an 18-footer in terms of boat handling and systems--I suspect the 25-footer would be more in your comfort zone, with 30 as a potential next step.

If you suspect you'll take that next step (for smooth, spacious cruising in Tahoe's chop), you might want to re-think the new vs used issue. Many used C-250s, as John says, won't have much wear but will be available in the twenties (or less). That represents the hit you'll take if you buy new and sell in a few years. In most larger used sailboats, you also get many upgrades and electronic goodies "free", where you'll be paying for them on a new boat--even long after your initial purchase--and then giving them away at resale. Just something to think about... (You thought we'd make this easy, right? )

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 01/03/2008 10:31:51
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JimB517
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 01/03/2008 :  10:45:35  Show Profile  Visit JimB517's Homepage
You never mentioned sailability. I think the C250 is slow. I can sail circles around it in my C25. It is also tender. You can't fly a big headsail over a 135. I do like the nice open interior. There are no side decks which makes moving to the bow uncomfortable.

You could get a real nice late model C25 wing keel with trailer for $10K. In great condition, seldom used. Fully equipped with electronics, marine head, galley, sleeps 4.

Sails faster, stiffer, fly a spinnaker, better heavy weather capability.

Take that $30K and invest in foreign oil. Your logic that a new boat is cheaper in the long run it totally wrong.

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MartinJW
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Response Posted - 01/03/2008 :  11:47:54  Show Profile
Thanks, Frank, for the input. Your points are well taken and I value your opinion.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Frank Hopper</i>
<br />If you like the Catalina 250 you owe it to yourself to look at the Hunters. The Hunter 26 is a best buy on the used market, the 260s are getting cheaper, and the 27 is the new boat, all are basically 25' boats with marketing spin on their length.
I say this because the 250 has been a complete failure on our lake; seldom sailed and sold quickly to other venues. While the Hunters are used often and kept year after year. I have a theory on this that is very un-PC on this forum, I think Catalinas are bought by better sailors and they are then disappointed in the 250's sailing characteristics, Hunters are bought by newbies and they do not know that other boats sail better.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

There are a number of C-25/250s on Lake Tahoe, and the owners I've interviewed are quite happy. Also, a Catalina dealer is nearby; the Hunter dealer is several hundred miles away.

When I compared an H-25 and the C-250, there was less than 10% difference in the bottom-line price. On top of this, my local dealer is offering a no-sales-tax promotion right now, so the difference is negligible.

I've been sailing 20+ years, and I've sailed 12' dinghies, Hobie Cats, and most recently the C-16 & C-18. I've also sailed with friends on their Erikson (Ericson?) 30 and another friend's Cal 24. However, I don't think I'd be able to tell if the C-250 had poor sailing characteristics; I have to rely on the fact that there are a substantial number of C-25/250s sailing where I would be keeping my boat. By poor sailing characteristics, do you mean relatively slow and inefficient, or is there a more serious problem?


<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Frank Hopper</i>
As to potties; have you ever used Mr. Slurpy? Do you know what emptying a marine head is like? Ever heard people talk about the pumpout station being down?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes, it's somewhat yucky. However, my personal preference is to pull up to the pumpout station every couple of weeks rather than lift out the (limited capacity) Portapottie weekly. As someone else pointed out, the pumpout fitting into the deck makes this not quite so bad.


<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Frank Hopper</i>
Finally, to have a $40k budget and not get standing head room seems really short sighted, you have done the move up thing, buy this boat as if it were your last, head room is the most important thing there is as you age. A 270/27 sits next to your house just as well as a 250 and depending on your situation a 28 travels a few miles just fine as well. A 28 is a very stately boat with a real enclosed head, the 250 enclosed head is a marketing response. My guess is that a 250 will be another interim boat for you.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I think you're right. I could imagine keeping the 250 for 10+ years or so, but standing headroom would be great before I reach the age of 60 (in about 13 more years). Given my current sailing experience and financial / physical /geographical situation, a new 250 probably makes more sense than a used 27/270, even if the purchase price was the same. (I should be posting questions to the 27/270 Association Web page around, let's see, 2020 or so when I start looking for that next boat.)


THANKS again for your input, and best wishes for a wonderful new year.

Martin



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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 01/03/2008 :  12:14:16  Show Profile
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by JimB517</i>
<br />I think the C250 is slow.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Well I think the C-25 is slow. <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I can sail circles around it in my C25.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I can run circles around your C-25. <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">It is also tender. You can't fly a big headsail over a 135.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Not everyone wants to, especially for family sailing on Lake Tahoe.

Jeez, Jim... Two past commodores ragging on our members' boats!
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I do like the nice open interior. There are no side decks which makes moving to the bow uncomfortable.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">The former contributes to the latter. The boat has roller furling--foredeck work is not necessary.

Jim, you and Martin have different objectives on the water. Some other people here apparently share Martin's. At this rate, they're all gonna go off and form their own association.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 01/03/2008 12:16:38
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JimB517
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 01/03/2008 :  12:52:58  Show Profile  Visit JimB517's Homepage
Just saying it like it is. Yes, the C25 is slow compared to a J27. The C250 is slower. (I'll admit only sailing side by side with a water ballast).

Nothing really wrong with it, just tender, slow, and can't fly a big jib. Limited ablilty to adjust jib cars. No side decks, yes you do have to go to the bow to anchor (sometimes to dock), or change jibs (even with roller furling).

I do like the open transom, the big roomy interior, the roomy cockpit, and the outboard well.

Don't like the wheel (stick with tiller).

Buying an older C25 and pocketing $30K is the better deal. I'll stand by that. WORST CASE your used C25 boat needs: new outboard, new sails, new rigging, varnish the teak, repair the trailer. Buy the boat for $5K, drop in another $5 to $7K. Pocket $28K. You'll probably get $2K at least in extras with the used boat (GPS, knotmeter, barbeque, extra sails, ....). Or just look for a good one for $10K like I said they are out there.

Dave - Nothing wrong with former Commodores keeping up the value of the C25 in the used boat market. Besides I seriously believe the used boat is the best deal. Just wait until you try to get warranty work done by your Catalina dealer during the season.

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John Russell
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Response Posted - 01/03/2008 :  13:19:21  Show Profile
The last I checked, the C250 is able to sail at hull speed (plus a little more if the conditions are exactly right) Ditto for the C25. Now, in a "chase your tail round the buoys" race, the C25 may likely have an advantage on some legs. I truly don't know. That's probably because neither the C25 nor the C250 were ever designed to be racers and I would venture to say that most of the owners of both don't race. At least not seriously.

As to the side deck issue. I feel safer and more confident walking forward on my 250 than I do when I've tried to walk forward on the narrow side deck of a C25. My feet, not to mention other parts of me, are just too big.

Jim, you're attempt (tongue in cheek, I assume) to market your boat here clouds the issue for Martin. The question isn't whether the C25 is or isn't a better boat than the C250. His budget size and his stated concern makes a <u><i>late model </i> </u> used boat an alternative to be considered. Late model doesn't include 20+ y/o boats. The inherent maintenance issues of an older boat are precisely the reason I opted for a 250 over the 25. I love the C25. It has great lines and is far more pleasing to my eye belowdecks than my 250. Others will disagree but, that isn't the issue here.

The question is: will the 250 meet his needs as he has described them? I would answer an unequivocal yes to that question.

I'm with Dave in being disheartened that 2 former Commodores would bash a boat this association is committed to promote.

Edited by - John Russell on 01/03/2008 13:25:42
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dlucier
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Response Posted - 01/03/2008 :  13:58:42  Show Profile
If I were in the market for a boat and seeking information, I would want both the sunshine and the warts.


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dmpilc
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Response Posted - 01/03/2008 :  14:11:25  Show Profile
Martin, we are a new fleet in the Association, and I moved up last year from a 1975 C-22 to a 1984 C-25. It seems HUGE inside compared to the C-22, so I can only imagine the difference coming drom a C-18. One of our fleet members has a C250 water ballast and just loves it. He trailer sails from home, probably 25-30 miles each way, and seems to be able to rig it by himself without too much difficulty. His trailer is set up to assist with that. Also, he bought it new and did have some warranty issues with it, which tied up the boat for a few months this past year. I hope you have a wonderful time with yours. They look like very comfortable boats.

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Dave Bristle
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Response Posted - 01/03/2008 :  14:55:33  Show Profile
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by dlucier</i>
<br />If I were in the market for a boat and seeking information, I would want both the sunshine and the warts.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Well, since we seem to have plenty of time for this, let's analyze some of the "warts"...

Frank says the C-250 is inferior to the Hunter 260 based on KS sailors keeping their Hunters but not their Catalinas. He then says that could be because the better sailors bought the Catalinas and the Hunter sailors didn't know what a good boat was. From that he deduces that the Hunter is a better boat... I think the H-260 is an ugly, underbuilt pig, and its rig is a hazzard (from the one I saw come down).

Jim says his C-25 can sail circles around a C-250. Reports here, primarily from Texas lakes where the models have gone head-to-head, have suggested the opposite in light air. The heavier boat can carry more sail and is better in heavy air--what a surprise. But who's racing?

Side decks vs. cabintop... For changing sails under way on the ocean (which I've never done), I'd probably take the former. For a lake, I might take the space below. And I seriously doubt more than two C-250 sailors in the world do headsail changes under way.

20-year-old vs. new... Jim B. takes good care of his 30-year-old boat, but a pair of wires chafed through and started a fire in his sail locker a few years ago, as I occasionally remind him here. (I was aboard, out on the Pacific.) Draw whatever conclusions you want. But as boats get older, things start to happen. New versus nearly new... We've given Martin the main considerations--he has to do his own value judgement. If everyone agreed with you, Jim, Catalina wouldn't exist and there'd be no used boats for us to buy.

And Frank: I suspect you'll be famous on a Hunter website within days!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 01/03/2008 15:00:46
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Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 01/03/2008 :  15:12:12  Show Profile
Some of the C25 people on this site are just a bit too much to take. Your boats are nice but they are not God's gift to sailing. I had a choice and bought a C250. It is much roomier, has an enclosed head and sails wonderfully. Geez, Frank, get over yourself.

Martin, from what you describe the C250 Wing will be a great boat for you. You get an enclosed head with sink, solid galley, good standing room, lots of interior space and a boat that sails and handles very nicely, thank you. We have had our 250 in the San Juan Islands for a two week cruise and had a blast.

We chose to use a MSD porta-potti. It has a 5 gallon tank but is plumbed to be pumped. I will never haul poop again. Pumpout is the way to go. The MSD is easy to install and is maintenance free.

I have been on Hunter 260s. Yes they sell a lot. So do Mac 26Xs. Neither is anywhere near the boat the C250 is.

Getting a trailer is wise as you can explore other sailing venues and park in a cheaper spot for the winter. We paid $20k for a 2000 Wing in great condition with a trailer one year ago. You'll love your 250.

Oh, a wheel is a great way to go too. We like the additional room it provides and it is a great base for all sorts of things including instruments.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 01/03/2008 15:21:21
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Tom Potter
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Response Posted - 01/03/2008 :  17:12:22  Show Profile
Wow really surprised how the 250 is getting slammed by some 25 owners, some whom have never even sailed on one, go figure...

Martin,
I can't offer you advise on a C25 or a Hunter because I've never owned one. But if your interested in the 250 and according to your post you are, then hear what the guys that have ACTUALLY SAILED ON ONE have to say.

Based on the needs you listed, I think you described the 250wk. If you were to do more trailering then the WB might be better suited but since you plan to keep it in a slip most of the time then go WK.

Most of the 250 trailers that I know of come with a mast raising kit which includes a few items to stabilize the mast while its cranked up. The whole rigging/derigging can be done by one person if needed, however its very nice to have another set of helping hands and they don't necessary have to be "heavy lifting" hands just someone to hand you something once in a while.

I don't trailer as often as other here do, but I do make trips to the coast every now and then. I have made a few mods that make the job much easier.

Don't let what some have said scare you away from the 250. Contrary to some 25 owners, going forward is very easy and safe on the 250 in fact I would much rather walk across the cabin top than tip toe around the outer deck. I don't know why some people think this a problem, its not.

And for the 250 being slow, not sure about that one either. I'm first to tell you I'm not a racer however while sailing around in groups with other 25's, I've not seen many 25's that could run circles around me. (although I've never been to the west coast)
Talking about racing, I would race any 25 owner to the front of their boat, them tip toeing around their deck and me walking across my cabin top.

Based on the comments others have posted you can see we all love OUR boats! All said and done, whatever choice you make either the C25, 250WB, 250WK or the Capri they ALL are very fine boats and serves the needs of their owners.

Edited by - Tom Potter on 01/03/2008 17:44:34
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JimB517
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Response Posted - 01/03/2008 :  17:17:20  Show Profile  Visit JimB517's Homepage
I'm not selling my boat. I have sailed on both C25 and C250. I prefer the C25 and think money is better spent on a late model used boat, C25 or 250, compared to new. I've bought a new boat and taken a bath when I sold it 2 years later. I wish I knew then what I know now. You will lose $15,000 in the first year or 2 of owning a new C250 if you decide to sell.

I don't recommend a 30 year old boat for him. But perhaps an 89 wing or a lightly used C250 less than 5 years old from someone moving up.

For me a 30 year old boat is all I can afford at this point in life, plus I like to work on the boat and improve it the way I like.

Our local C250 with a wheel steering broke the cable in a round up condition, I also think the wheel takes a lot of room away from the cockpit, but to each his own. Keep the emergency tiller handy. All the C25s sail away from the 250 in light to medium air I believe mainly because he can't run a big headsail. He has a 135% now and I have not sailed against that. In big air where boats have reefed mains and 110% the C25 and the C250 are remarkably close.

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JimB517
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Response Posted - 01/03/2008 :  17:25:36  Show Profile  Visit JimB517's Homepage
By the way, I'm just telling it the way I see it warts and all. The C25 has some warts, too.

aft lowers block the boom so you can't sheet out all the way downwind

weak rudder

small cockpit

cramped interior

side decks are not wide enough

boat is heavy, and slow compared to modern race boats.

anchor locker flimsy

chainplates pull on the decks

leaky windows, leaky deck fittings

shoddy layup in some places

ridiculous nav lights on the older boats

weak attachment between mast and deck

boarding ladder a joke

What I like:

fun to sail
forgiving
very hard to roundup
dry decks, dry cockpit (freeboard just right)
just enough room for 1 to 2 people inside
can be raced by a crew of 3
spare parts available
sails and add ons available everywhere off the shelf.

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dmpilc
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Response Posted - 01/03/2008 :  17:57:00  Show Profile
Personally, I really like my C-25!!! For the money, it offers a lot of boat. If your primary reason for owning a sailboat is racing, go buy a sailboat designed for racing. You'll be a lot happier.

This is a forum to promote C-25's, C-250's, and Capri-25's. Let's try to stay focused on the positive attributes.

BTW: Boats, cars, and sometimes even houses - if you buy new and sell 2 years later, odds are good that you will get hosed. The exception being houses in a very hot market.

Edited by - dmpilc on 01/03/2008 17:57:34
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Russ.Johnson
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Response Posted - 01/03/2008 :  18:07:18  Show Profile
As a C250 owner, I mostly agree with Jim and Frank.

Jim has posted many amazing pictures of offshore racing.
I have no desire to sail offshore.
If I did, then a C25 Fin Keel would be my choice.

Frank has been a constant influence on the forum.
If a C25 is the best fit for his lake, then I believe him.

I bought my C250 new, when there wasn't a local used C25 or C250 available.
Since then, I've sailed my C250 and crewed on a C25 in similar conditions.
The C250 is lighter and less stiff.

Price/value is always a factor and Jim brings up another good point.

Martin asked for your point of view and there are always different points of view.
Martin is moving to his third Catalina so I don't think he'll cancel the sale by discussing warts and all.
I'm a recreational sailor and I think Martin is too.
I'm glad I bought a new C250 because it fit my needs.

Russ C250WB #793

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MartinJW
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Response Posted - 01/03/2008 :  18:42:32  Show Profile
&lt;sarcasm&gt;
I wish you guys had some strong opinions or recommendations about this.
&lt;/sarcasm&gt;

But seriously folks, I've read everyones' posts, and I really value each comment. I'm going to buy a Com-Pac 23 tomorrow. (I'm joking.)

Thanks, and keep the good-natured arguments coming!

Martin


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mhartong
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Response Posted - 01/03/2008 :  19:24:18  Show Profile  Visit mhartong's Homepage
I think all that REALLY matters are two things. "Do YOU like her"? and "Does she meet YOUR sailing needs?" If you can answer YES to both questions, then you have made the right choice for you.

I wouldn't be concerned about the depreciation if you really plan to keep your boat for any length of time. Yes, depreciation is going to absolutely depressing, especially if you decide you want to move up in a couple of years. However, if you keep her for any length of time as you indicate you are planning to, its not really a major issue since you won't be in the situation of being upside down on the mortgage.

I'm slightly prejudiced, but I think the 250 is probably the best built boat for some one who wants "affordable" new construction on the market today. The 250 isn't perfect- she has her quirks that take getting used to. But then again what boat doesn't have its own unique quirks- both good and bad?

I came to the same conclusion as you with regards to expenses. After I got done looking at the numbers, on purchase price and initial outfitting alone a new 270 was 1.5x and a new 28 Mk II 2x the cost of Persephone after outfitting (and since she has a sail drive she is on the high end of the scale). Not that I didn't lust after a 270 (now dropped from new production), a 28 Mk II, or even the 30 Mk III /309 , but when all was said and done, I just couldn't justify that sort of expense (ignoring, for the moment that I would have either needed to rob a bank or win the lottery to be able to afford not the mortgage note and upkeep.)

I can only speak from my experiences, others will have equally valid, but widely different experiences and points of view that will lead them to different conclusions. In my case I have found for the stage of life I'm at, the type of sailing that I have the time to do, and the $$ I have both available to spend and the capital I am willing to have tied up, a new 250 works well. Realistically, lets face it, except for the very lucky few of us, most of us will never sail to distant lands on the far side of the world or live aboard for months at a time. I am also just not ready or willing to have $100,00 K + tied up in a boat that is going to be used primarily on the weekends and long holidays for 7 months out of the year, and sit on the hard for the other 5.

Sailing is really about harnessing the wind to get from point A to point B- regardless if its on a race course or cruising along . Any thing that allows you to do that CAN"T be all that bad, can it?

YMMV

Mark





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