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Is a C-250 the Right Next Boat?

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2008 : 19:30:13

"Buying an older C25 and pocketing $30K is the better deal. "

I'm in that camp too. IMHO: Find a nice $7-$12K C25 and enjoy the hell our of it. ($12K should buy you a later model in Bristol condition) If you keep the sailing 'bug' in a few years you'll probably be ready to move up anyway so consider this a trainer boat for that day.. it's a great boat to give you the feel of a heavier vessel. In fresh water a swinger will do just fine, and is the easiest of the C25 lot to launch and retrieve.

While some may consider the C25 interior cramped, I find it 'cozy' and prefer the traditional design to the new 'open style' boat interiors. For some reason I want the galley and dining area to 'feel' seperate from the head and v-berth.

Just individual preferences I guess. I've never been at the helm of a C250 so I can't compare handling other than to say I think the C25 is very well mannered. Solid and no surprises.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2008 : 20:29:34

Actually, I tend to agree--it's the choice I made. I think the '89-90 C-25 is the nicest trailerable cruiser Catalina ever made--probably too "nice" for its market at the time. And the wing should be as easy to launch and load as the earlier swinger was, but better on the KISS scale.

That said, I took issue with some of the dissing of the C-250, which was Catalina's response to the changed market. It looks to me like the best among its current peers.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><sarcasm>
I wish you guys had some strong opinions or recommendations about this.
</sarcasm>
But seriously folks, I've read everyones' posts, and I really value each comment. I'm going to buy a Com-Pac 23 tomorrow. (I'm joking.)

Thanks, and keep the good-natured arguments coming!

Martin<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I like this guy!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 01/03/2008 20:32:10

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3312 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2008 : 20:55:11

I've sailed on both a C250 WK and WB. I know why they don't do well on Lake Cheney (Frank Hopper's hideaway)- they are not designed to sail in 20 knots+.

I have only raced against the WK 250 and as Jim says, I could run rings around it in any air.
Personally, if I were buying a boat for the lake for the first time it would be a C25 - any rig, any keel.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2008 : 21:15:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 I have only raced against the WK 250 and as Jim says, I could run rings around it in any air.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Let's face it, Derek--that's no fairsies!

(Martin: You'd have to see his boat and his racing record to understand...)

Edited by - on

dmpilc
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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2008 : 22:55:08

Glad to have you on board, Martin. Hang in there. I've thoroughly enjoyed being a part of this forum for the past year and have received lots of very good help and advice. It's also been a lot of fun, and i hope to meet some of these guys one day.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2008 : 23:12:23

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by 1981capri
 You guys crack me up. Arguing whether a slug is faster than a snail...and if snail has a more comfortable cabin even if it does fall over on it side easier.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Ya, Dan... Let's see you in The Race (between Fisher's Island and Long Island--some call it the Washing Machine) in your "race" boat!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 01/03/2008 23:13:28

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 01/04/2008 : 10:29:09

Martin, thanks for starting up a good winter thread. Buy a boat that makes you happy.

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 01/04/2008 : 15:10:08

Wow, I have been gone for a while and I come back and this is the first topic I read. Holy smokes. Did some people have a bad Christmas?
Dude, buy a sailboat you like and can afford and enjoy what you and the rest of us are supposed to enjoy, the love of sailing.
Steve A
PS Happy New Year to All.

Edited by - piseas on 01/04/2008 15:11:17

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 01/04/2008 : 16:41:38

Here is why I bought a C250. The C250 is a current production state-of-the-art boat that incorporates what we wanted in a cruising trailerable.

The C250, with its modern design, has a large interior including a fully enclosed head (with opening port) and a large sleeping berth. Those two things make a world of difference when you are on a multi-day cruise. It also has a large cockpit and the option of wheel steering which makes the usable space in the cockpit even greater.

Speaking of the wheel, it provides a platform for cockpit conveniences and instruments. When we cruise I do not want the chartplotter 6 feet away on the bulkhead. I want it right at the helsman position.

The C250 also has a transom cutout that makes the swim ladder much more usable both for egress (much easier for climbing into a dinghy) and for getting someone back on board (who may need help, a safety feature). It has a broad flat coach roof which eases access to the foredeck. There is a motor mount that does not require an outboard lift.

Also, we love the cat-bird seats. That is where our guests always want to sit. Those seats are a kick!

The C250 also takes advantage of new layup and resin technology that eliminates the hull saturation and osmotic blistering sometimes found on older boats.

We bought our C250 Wing to cruise. I had a $20k budget and could have bought any boat that I could trailer at that price point. Easy decision for me.

We do not race but have sailed in some strong winds. We reef.

Took a two week cruise this fall and spent every day and night on the boat. We could have gone a month. For us, the C250 is the best trailerable cruiser on the market for its price.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 01/05/2008 09:18:53

John Russell
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3444 Posts

Response Posted - 01/04/2008 : 17:50:22

Let me make one more comment about wheel vs. tiller based on recent discussions in this forum regarding the soft/hard link.

A year ago, when I bought Kaija, this discussion took place as well. At that time, before ever sailing her, I thought that would be a good addition for me to make. Well, I never got around to it. I also found that, after a little practice, I was able to maneuver her into the slip pretty easily -- even singlehanded. So, I re-thought the idea and decided it might be nice to have, but not really necessary for me.

Then came the most recent itteration.

During that discussion, I came to the conclusion, that the hard link thing had more to do with limited maneuverability at slow speeds and tight quarters caused by the wheels limitation on rudder turn. I'm able to put the tiller hard to starboard and move the rudder to nearly 90 degrees and move into my slip with the motor amidships. The wheel will only turn the rudder to about 45 degrees off midline when hard over. Admittedly, while sailing, that's as far as one might want but in tight spaces, more acute angles are helpful. (Although while heaving to one might also be better served with a tiller -- don't know.) I think it's that limitation that makes it necessary to want to turn the motor in concert with the rudder while in tight quarters. Ergo, the need for the hard link.

Remember, this is my conclusion based on my logical thought processes. It's not hard science. But, I think it gives one good reason for choosing a tiller over a wheel other than personal preference.

I sure would like to have my instruments closer to my middle-aged eyes, though.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/04/2008 : 21:42:16

I think Randy hit it on the head. I looked hard at the C-250 before buying a used C-25, and appreciated its attributes. I also concluded (not being a "Catalina person" at the time) that it was the head-and-shoulders value winner in its class--no real competition. I had looked hard at the H-260, and REJECTED it! Why I bought the C-25 is a long story... Budget was a piece of it, and some other considerations weighed in.

If you really want a fast boat, as alluded by Dan, our Capri skipper above, don't get either! If you want a nice, well-built, versatile pocket cruiser (that can be trailered), consider both--they're both great, but they're different. Then just jump into the pool--you can't go wrong!

New vs. used... IMHO, highly-seasoned sailors are more comfortable with used boats, and newer sailors are more comfortable with new. That said, after 50+ years of sailing, I just had a new boat built--semi-custom--because I knew exactly what I wanted and neither the new (stock) or used markets had it. I probably spent too much... If I had to sell it today, I'd probably lose more than most 250 owners paid for their boats. But you only go around once here, and not for long enough.

As Steve said above, "Dude, buy a sailboat you like!"

As Jim said, it's a great mid-winter discussion!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 01/04/2008 21:51:32

OLarryR
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3367 Posts

Response Posted - 01/04/2008 : 23:08:49

I think John made some good comments regarding what to consider comparing tiller versus wheel steering. I have never had a sailboat with wheel steering mostly because the boats were too small to offer it. The one boat I did have new was an ODay 23 and that also did not have a wheel steering option. You start to see wheel steeering only on the larger boats and this is probably because of the ergonomics and accessibility issues that may be present on the smallest sailboats that start to offer it as an option. If you have access to others with Catalina 250 wheel steering, then consider when coming into the dock if the wheel steering is in any way interfering with docking. For example, when I back into my finger slip, I oftentimes wind up not only turning in with the tiller but also the motor. If doing that with wheel steering, that puts you behind the wheel. On a larger boat, this would seem to me as no big deal but I am not sure on a 25 footer if being nestled back there poses any concern when single-handed sailing if then when you need to hop onto the finger and secure the boat if this is of any concern. When using the tiller, you are have no interference whenn having to get off and secure the boat but wheel steering on a smallish boat, it may require some attention to negotiate getting off and securing. Maybe no issue at all.

As far as new versus old boat. If you got the bucks, no the story with depreciation if you have to sell in the first 5 years or so and are comfortable with that and when you are looking over the boat of choice and get that real good "buy me" feeling...then go for it !

Larry

Edited by - on

bren737
Captain

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291 Posts

Response Posted - 01/04/2008 : 23:45:43

Wow! Dittos Dave, Steve, Mark and Jim! You can tell that it's winter and a lot of boats are on the hard!

This is the typical Ford vs. Chevy, Bud vs. Miller (I'm a Sierra Nevada man, myself), Burger King vs. McDonald's debate. It is all about personal desires, period. Any boat is a compromise and you just have to determine your own usage and preferences.

A few months ago we had the opportunity to visit a beautiful vineyard in Tuscany for a dinner and wine tasting. The owner (whose family has owned and tended the same vineyards since the year 920 (yes, 920 not 1920)) laughed when asked about serving certain wines with certain foods. As he put it, 'if a wine brings you and your friends together, brings a smile to your face and a pleasant taste to your palate, it is the perfect wine for the meal, regardless of what some critic in a magazine says.' Amen, brother!!

As a side note, the vineyard owner, Gino Verrazzano is a descendant of Giovanni da Verrazzano, the Italian sailor/explorer for whom the Verrazzano Narrows are named.

Ok, enough of my diatribe. . . buy it, sail it, enjoy it!

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2008 : 09:39:05

Interesting discussion on tiller vs wheel.

I will admit that, when anchored, the wheel can be in the way of the swim ladder (and our grill which is attached to the port cat-bird seat). The solution is to use a quick release wheel nut and then move the wheel. We have an Edson gizmo that hangs the wheel off any rail.

We also put a quick-pin on the port aft stay (we have a split stay) and move that port stay to the starboard side at anchor. Once the wheel and port stay are moved, access to the swim ladder is unimpeded. This makes access to and from the dinghy very easy.

When docking I use the motor to steer. I dock slowly and my belief is that a rudder - with an outboard - is not very useful at very slow speeds. Many C250 owners use a rudder-to-motor link so that they can still use the wheel or tiller to steer at slow speeds when docking.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2008 : 09:53:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 I dock slowly and my belief is that a rudder - with an outboard - is not very useful at very slow speeds.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

At very slow speeds, the rudder is only useless if you use it like a conventional rudder. I use a sculling technique with my rudder to kick the bow/stern over when I'm barely moving or to add a little speed to get me in to the slip without using the outboard. It is very effective and easy.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2008 : 10:07:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 I'm able to put the tiller hard to starboard and move the rudder to nearly 90 degrees and move into my slip with the motor amidships. The wheel will only turn the rudder to about 45 degrees off midline when hard over. Admittedly, while sailing, that's as far as one might want but in tight spaces, more acute angles are helpful.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">John... It's intuitive that the further over you can push the tiller, the tighter you'll turn. I'll suggest that you try to resist that intuition and limit your tiller angles to about 45-50 degrees from center. Past that, the rudder "stalls", becoming more of a brake than a rudder. The boat turns somewhat (from the off-center drag), but not as much. I was on a guy's boat when he pushed hard-over as we left the slip. We were headed toward the boats on the next dock until I suggested he pull the tiller half-way back, and instantly the boat virtually pivoted, and off we went. He was amazed--didn't know it could turn like that! Check it out (but wait till spring).

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 01/05/2008 10:08:51

MartinJW
Navigator

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USA
241 Posts

Response Posted - 03/22/2008 : 00:56:53

Okay, I think we've officially done it. We've given our dealer a deposit and asked him to order our new 2008 C-250 wk on Monday.

We've been considering options and configurations for several months, but here's what we finally decided to include:

*Trail-Rite trailer for C-250 w/ support wheel and mast raising system ($5,761)

*Honda 9.9 HP, XL (25") shaft outboard w/ elec start, charging system, power tilt ($3,300)

*pedestal wheel steering with compass ($1,684)

*Raymarine ST-60 Tridata speed-depth-temp system ($1,547)

*cockpit cushions ($399)

*135% Genoa in lieu of standard 110% ($376)

*canvas package: mainsail, winches, pedestal ($370)

*cabin window shades ($355)

*cabin carpeting ($196)

*cruising package, pop top, stove, ice chest (incl. w/ standard equipment; $0)

Shipping from FL to NV will be about $3,000 and dealer rigging/prep will be about $600.

As part of a sales promotion, the dealer is paying the sales tax (approx. $3,000) and providing an anchor + rode, dock lines and fenders, and basic keelboat sailing lessons at no additional charge.

We're hoping for a May delivery and a June launch.

I'm looking forward to many more interesting and entertaining discussions with this group.

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 03/22/2008 : 02:29:09

Congratulations! You seem to have equiped her very well. Just 1 more thing I believe you should consider is to have a piece of sunbrella sown on to the leach of the jib (jib UV strip). This way when you roll up the jib it will be protected. Better than a sock in my opinion. Next time I buy a new jib, I will have this modification done. Since your's will be new and Nevada is pretty hard on the UV I really suggest you do the same.

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 03/22/2008 02:33:46

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3367 Posts

Response Posted - 03/22/2008 : 09:51:16

Does it come with a manual bilge pump ?

How about a boom vang.

Also, I am not familiar with the Cat 250 running rigging management. You may want to look over how the lines lead (or don't lead) to the cockpit that may make it easier for family or solo sailing. Some boats have those flat multi-blocks (whatever you call them) that fit flush with the cabin top and aid in leading the lines aft - Those are best put in by the mfr since they attach directly to the decking (maybe it's std eqmt).

For example, they may have stove options - alcohol, propane or maybe even a microwave. You may want to consider which is best for your intended use.

Are there options for the head/porta-potti. I don't know....maybe you want to try some for fit ?? LOL

I would think that they have an accessory list/checklist so that you can review anything addl and I assume that is how you added the items you listed in your posting. However, if those were just things that were suggested or known by you that you wanted, then you may want to ask if they have a master list of add-ons so that you can then review it and see if there is anything addl you may want. Sometimes it is not addl things to add to the order - It is sometimes a substitute one option instead of another and so if they have a master list that is an important thing to review so you know what are the varied options perhaps for the stove, head/porta potti and various inside cabin alternate options. Your dealer may also be able to provide advice if perhaps you should forgo an accessory or two and get it on your own at a savings for things that can be easily accomplished and not delay your sailing date.

Edited by - OLarryR on 03/22/2008 09:57:49

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 03/22/2008 : 18:58:40

Martin, congratulations! You'll love your new boat. Don't hesitate to ask questions. The UV strip on the genny is a must.

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 03/22/2008 : 21:17:36

I'm pretty sure the boom vang and bilge pump are standard. (how about the emergency tiller?)

When we ordered JD we included about everything on your list, including the cockpit cushions, they are the only thing I would not re-order.
The folding seats are much better in my mind, Tom Potter has them on his WK Tall rig, and they are really comfortable and not always in postion to be stepped on when someone steps over the side onto the boat.

I'm envious of you getting the ST60, very nice, better than our ST40. We had our speed and depth display mounted in a pod on the pedistal guard.

Wonder what your sail number will be, you ordered yours almost exactly 3 years after us.

Congrats, looking forward to your news of first launch! Enjoy.

Paul

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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2017 Posts

Response Posted - 03/22/2008 : 22:56:37

Martin, congrats. I know you will enjoy her for years to come. BTW, what are you gonna name her?
Steve A

Edited by - on

SEAN
Admiral

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USA
772 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2008 : 10:33:11

funny thread ,

VIVA 250 !!

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 03/23/2008 : 12:39:47

Martin - Congrats on the new boat. Great choice.

And the rest of you cantankerous old poops, thanx for the chuckles. I love this stuff. This is why I bought a C25; so i could be part of this kookiness.
I was going to buy a new 250 then bought an old C25, most of the time I'm glad I did. Sometimes I wish I had an easier to tow, lighter 250. In the end, I'm just glad I bought a boat - best thing I've done since I decided on the Admiral.
Sometimes I wish I had a different head, but the porta-potti is still a very good idea, mainly because its what I have. I like the tiller but a wheel would be cool. I wish I had furling sometimes, but I really like hank-on.
I sail on a lake with a lot of MacGregors, a bunch of Hunters and four or five C250s and two other C25's. The main thing I've learned is that the real fun is cracking beers with these other like minded wannabes. So, the bottom line is, who has the biggest cooler, who has the best stereo and the best collection of tunes.
I like the MacGregor sailors, they're happy to be out there and they think my C25 looks like a REAL boat. I like drinking their beer. I like the Hunter guy that moors next to my boat because he's out there all the time and is the equivilant of my city next door neighbour who sits on his front stoop most of the time and who knows what is going on in the hood at all times.
Of course, my boat sails faster and truer than all the rest, but then that's because I listen to the purists here who have taken the time and have agonized through the passions of these boats to be able to say the things they say...and I admire them because they know the other purists will jump all over them for a typo or a contrary opinion.
A brand new C250 is a beautiful thing, almost as cool as an old C25.
Stay tuned.

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 03/31/2008 : 02:57:24

I looked at the C-250WB when it first came out and was disappointed - it seemed to be hardly any bigger inside than the C-22 I had at the time. I later found out that this dearth of headroom was due to the 11" deep water ballast tank. Later, when the wing keel version of the C-250 was introduced, I liked it a little more than the WB, but I still felt it was rather spartan compared to the C-25, which is what I ended up buying (my '79, hull #1205). Of course, the C-250 Wing Keel is a superb performer and will sail rings around the older C-25's. Depends on what you want, creature comforts or minimum weight/maximum performance? I love my '89 C-25, but it's quite heavy, probably at least 1500 pounds more than a C-250WK, and it's a bear to tow, weighing almost 7800# with the trailer. I've been told that C-250WK tow weight is only about 5500 pounds with the standard trailer.

Edited by - lcharlot on 03/31/2008 03:04:02

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