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Coasties shut down radio during pan pan

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redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/16/2007 : 09:07:08

OK - I will retype this eliminating all references to anything political.

My wife and I were heading south on the Chesapeake about a month ago when we heard the mayday from a singlehander on a 25 foot sailboat. We were 10 nautical miles from him flying at 7.5 to 8.5 knots!

We offered to assist and the Coasties asked my intentions. I replied with; "keep a sharp lookout, assist if possible, and report all sightings to the US Coast Guard." Turns out the singlehander got such a nasty wrap on his genny that the strong winds were pushing him into very shallow water. We altered course as the Coasties continued to issue pan pan's every 15 minutes. There were other vessels in the area but of course none offered to assist. As we approached the vessel in distress, we saw a fishing boat tied along side and they were wrestling the genny into submission. CG then requested that WE escort this poor fellow into port.

OK, it's getting late, sun going down, we'd like to drop a hook and get some sleep. But, as a proud American I am always willing to assist my fellow sailor and the Coasties, so we slowed down to about 4.5 knots and agreed to let this fellow follow us in. Just then he reported to US that he had fouled his anchor line around his rudder. We hailed the Coasties and asked them to switch up. They were sending an asset to this guy, it was coming from over 2 hours away in Baltimore, so I requested that they continue as I really did not know if this guy was out of the woods yet. They thanked us for our assistance and again asked if we would stand by... OK...

Finally our poor friend cuts himself loose and gets his outboard started. We had to dig out all of the VHF radios just to keep track of what was going on. Channels 16, 11, 12, 22...Coasties were requiring him to report every ten minutes and they were hailing us constantly with position reports, wind speed and direction, his location, our speed, his speed, etc...

We are cruising at 4 knots and I am bored, so I ask our buddy where he is from and where he is going. He reported that he just got out of the Army after 8 years and bought a boat to escape. Did not really know how to sail, but was happy to be alive in Small Craft Advisories after what he had been thru. At this point there was a brief comment - ok, maybe a little political - that resulted in complete radio silence. Please note- the comment WAS NOT from our side! I may have murmured something in agreement, but nothing major.

We had a visual on this guy at a range of 500 yards and we could not raise him at all. Complete radio silence. After about an hour, we heard him hailing us and he asked; "What was that all about?" Dunno...

We instructed him to pass us so we could assist if his motor cut out or something - no backup anchor aboard. He did so and we all proceeded to Solomons Island MD where we saw him safely to a dock. Just as soon as we got our hook down for the night - two of the radios come to life with the Coasties hailing US to make sure HE was OK. We gave them the all thumbs up and they thanked us again for our assistance.

Please note: earlier we had trouble copying the CG on 22 and they did something and said; "how's that?" Crystal clear - so we know that they can do it.

But apparently they can prevent radio transmissions if they so desire. There was no warning, no take it elsewhere, etc... This probably comes in handy when some powerboater sits on his mike for an hour. SO, regardless of how you feel about whatever - someone somewhere can decide that YOU are inappropriate. (Who are those people?) Sorta like what happened on this site.

Personally, I think it is a bit frightening - but I will leave it at that before I get deleted.

Sten

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 12/16/2007 : 09:56:32

That's a helluva accusation. I'm going to ask my Air Force Radio Maintenance guy (my son) if it's possible. I imagine he'll tell me it is possible to "jam" the frequency but not to impair an individual radio (or two) without line of sight, directional equipment. Assuming what you say had the motives you implied, it's unlikely that it was the "Coast Guard". At worst, it might have been some over zealous Petty Officer acting independently. It could have also been some anomaly that was simply coincidental. I don't know what it was. I'd suggest, that neither do you.

Your channel 22 "explanation" was likely a result of them switching from a low output power to a higher one. For you and I, that's going from 1 watt to 5 watts with an antenna that is at best about 40' in the air. They have access to significantly higher wattage and antennae that are hundreds of feet in the air. They could also have switched to a broadcast antenna that was closer to your location. And, yes, that could give them the technical capability for overriding other transmissions.

Finally, on a more personal level, your implication that those that serve are doing so to somehow abrogate your free speech insults those of us that have proudly worn a uniform. Don't confuse those that serve with the policy of an administration with which you disagree. And, by the way, they may disagree with as well. I would think that is why your post in the "Thank the Troops" thread was deleted. The motive there was to say thanks to the "grunt soldier", who, I imagine you'd agree, deserve our thanks, not to make a political comment about administrative policy.

Thank you for your genuine (albeit, in my opinion, a bit paranoid) concern about the well being of our country. And, thank you for your concern and actions for the safety of a fellow sailor.

Edited by - John Russell on 12/16/2007 09:59:28

ddlyle
Captain

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302 Posts

Response Posted - 12/16/2007 : 10:02:34

Sten,
It is truly amazing the engineering marvels that our military has.
Maybe jamming a VHF radio isn't much, but I once had the opportunity to drive a US Navy Fast
Frigate (USS Carr FFG52)and I was amazed by the responsiveness of that ship. I was at the helm during a man overboard exercise. I never served in the military, but my son was in the Navy and my 2nd son and I got to sail aboard the Carr on a 5 day "Tiger Cruise". My respect for the military zoomed upward after I got to experience one of their tools.
Just like those satelite photos that can show amazing details from thousands of miles away, engineering is incredible. Maybe E.T.'s have helped our military :)

Maybe it's not appropriate for the radio to be jammed during a calm period of a boat rescue, but it is understandable when you think of the sailor who was monitoring the communications.
That sailor probably didn't like something (political) that was said, but he /she was still aware of the situation in case the radio was needed and could un-jam it.

Edited by - on

1981capri
Navigator

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USA
175 Posts

Response Posted - 12/16/2007 : 10:23:27

Maybe the CG just wanted to show, in case of an emergency, that when they key their mic nobody else is getting thru with any mindless chit-chat.

In the case of this association, what are we to do if people want to come and post their "thoughts about the association" in our general forum which is suppose to be " general discussions relating to either the Catalina 25, Catalina 250, and Capri 25 " We have a member feedback forum that no one seems to use.

This association is what we make it. Right here, right now. For me it's about my boat and getting ready for some great sailing this next year!!!

Edited by - 1981capri on 12/16/2007 10:36:14

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/16/2007 : 10:45:44

We all truly appreciate your response to the distress situation, and your willingness to go out of your way. But if you happened to be chatting between yourselves on Ch 16, or worse on 22, you were out of bounds, especially in a pan-pan situation. Usually, the CG broadcasts a request for radio silence except to respond to them or report on the situation (or a new one). I suspect thay already had. I might also have expected them to do that to shut down your conversation with a request... But they can drown everyone out with a sine wave at some thousand watts, and still detect transmissions with their receiving equipment. Off Mystic, CT, I commonly pick up pan pan transmissions from the CG in Sandy Hook, NJ (125 miles away)--they do have some power.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 12/16/2007 11:10:11

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 12/16/2007 : 11:19:32

I am from KANSAS, what the heck is PAN PAN? Is that like our lake wind advisories?

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 12/16/2007 : 12:11:17

Frank,
There are three levels of informational prefixes you can use to alert others to situations.
The first level is [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Securite"]securite [/url]which is used to alert other boaters to things like logs floating in navigation areas, or your intentions.

Next is [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-pan"]pan-pan[/url], used to indicate an emergency, but no imminent loss of life, danger of sinking, etc. This means maybe you're adrift without an engine (and in the example here, your sail's wrapped and you're not in complete control of your boat).

And then there's [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayday_%28distress_signal%29"]mayday [/url]which is to indicate a grave emergency, like man overboard, uncontrollable leaks, grevious injury, etc.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 12/16/2007 : 12:32:40

It didn't click with me that you were on the official CG channels. If that's the case, in my area, you would have been told to take "idle chat" to channel 9, the recreational channel. It could well be that's why you were jammed, if that's what happened. No constitutional issue there.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5890 Posts

Response Posted - 12/16/2007 : 13:10:15

On the Chesapeake, the Coasties constantly monitor all radio traffic on channel 16, and they frequently interrupt and admonish boaters to use channel 16 only for emergencies, and to make contact wth another boat. After contact is established, they want the parties to go to another channel to continue the conversation. They are very protective of channel 16, and don't want it used for casual conversations, even when there's no emergency, but when an emergency of some kind has been declared, they are even more insistent that conversation be limited to traffic relating to the emergency.

While the emergency is ongoing, a coast guardsman is monitoring the channel, in case the situation worsens, and they want the channel clear, not just from unnecessary transmissions by other boaters, but also from the ones directly involved in the incident. Usually, when they make their first contact with a boat in distress, they make an announcement asking all boats to avoid any unnecessary transmissions.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 12/16/2007 : 13:44:50

John,
That's correct, channel 22 is a USCG Liaison & Maritime Safety Information channel. Here's a [url="http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/marcomms/vhf.htm"]listing of channels[/url] and their uses.

Sten,
From the description of the situation it sounds like he wasn't in imminent danger, but was experiencing difficulties that may have required assistance, definitely a pan-pan situation. I'm surprised the coasties didn't direct you to a non-commercial or non-official channel so you could talk to each other w/o being on an official channel. I seriously doubt they were jamming you. I think a far more prosaic answer might be that you were in a nulled area while they were broadcasting their normal information from some distance away and a couple of different areas ([url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor"]Occam's razor[/url]). It would be possible to be in a spot where their signals canceled each other out (called a [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterodyne"]heterodyne[/url], similar to what contributed to the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife_disaster#Communication_misunderstandings"]KLM crash in Tenerife[/url]). Similar to someone keeping their microphone keyed and blocking everyone else's reception and transmission.

While I can't discount it out of hand, and I'm certain that there is some way of deliberately jamming a given channel, I can't see anyone using jamming technology to stop someone's conversation here in the US. Even one they might have disagreed with. Those of us who served swore an oath to uphold the constitution, not put our opinions and predilections on our shoulders using federal resources to do so. We served so that all of us can have open discussions like this, and air our views anyway we see fit, including using official channels incorrectly. While I disagree with some of your views, I support your right to air them, and I admire your dedication to your cause. Even your boat name shows your stance. I'd much prefer someone who's got an opinion than someone who can't make a decision. I also want to thank you for stepping up to help a fellow sailor. Nobody really cares what someone else's views are when they're being assisted by a good Samaritan.

Et al,
Take a deep breath, this forum is mostly made up of a bunch of grumpy guys who like to poke fun at each other, exchange ideas on how to make our various boats & boating experiences better and share stories about our lives. It's a rare thread that makes it past a page w/o a hijack, and people rarely complain about that. I know I'm pretty good at hijacks myself and I make no apologies for them. Spoken conversations rarely stay on track, and our forum discussions do the same, I enjoy reading almost all of them. Yes political views get bandied about, and usually poked fun at, this hijack just happened to touch some raw nerves on a sensitive subject on which there are widely differing opinions. Everyone's opinion is equally valid, no matter how much you think they're a moron for having them. I think that Sten's concern about being jammed is a valid concern, although I don't think it was actually jamming. I'd be concerned if I sailed in the same area and found out that my radio didn't work properly there. That he sees sinister causes where I see physical ones is immaterial, we should still be able to discuss it without name calling.

My considerably more than $0.02...

Edited by - delliottg on 12/16/2007 13:47:01

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/16/2007 : 13:48:44

Generally CG Southern New England tells a distress caller to switch to Ch 22, which they guard even more jealously (for obvious reasons). When they broadcast a pan-pan (asking boaters to watch and be prepared to assist), they generally request radio silence on 16 except for emergency calls or reports on the pan-pan, which they will take to Ch 22. I believe they have something like a sine-wave transmitter that can, if they want, prevent other boats from receiving your transmissions on a channel by overwhelming the receivers without preventing them (CG) from receiving on that channel. That stops non-critical traffic in a hurry and allows them to respond to exactly what they want.

Frank: If you expect to do any sailing in coastal waters or the Great Lakes, you might want to peruse Chapman's on the subject. If something goes haywire, you don't want to be creating more confusion.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 12/16/2007 : 14:32:58

My take is slightly different. I'm thinking some third party might have been offended and keyed down and if that happened... it is a very serious act for which the Coasties would immediately but without public warning, seek to direction locate the offender and if able to identify before he opened his key... the person would have been facing far more problems than the offense he suffered.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 12/16/2007 : 14:37:19

Good point Arlyn, I hadn't thought about a vigilante. If that was the case, I hope they found the offender.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 12/16/2007 : 14:37:44

Our emergency response is most often to walk to or from shore. Honestly, I would not consider single handing a boat anywhere but in a lake, I am a helm'sman and in no way qualified to skipper a boat where my decisions could hurt others.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/16/2007 : 16:11:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Frank Hopper
 Our emergency response is most often to walk to or from shore. Honestly, I would not consider single handing a boat anywhere but in a lake, I am a helm'sman and in no way qualified to skipper a boat where my decisions could hurt others.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">That's baloney and you know it!

You might not be required to know VHF protocol, but you know plenty, and you are responsible for the safety of others every time you leave the dock. I suspect you're qualified.

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2007 : 06:53:22

Just to clarify - we were transfered to 12 by the Coasties and we stayed there unless directed otherwise. Radio checks are no longer cool on 16. 9 is not a working recreational channel either. 68, 69, 72, etc. are...

I had not considered Arlyn's explanation. VERY GOOD! Again, we were on 12 but anyone listening to the Pan Pan's could have switched down and listened.

The guy was in a very bad situation considering the size of the seas, the winds, and his inexperience. the coasties were reluctant to come out and get him. In my experience they are loathe to become AAA...

And finally, I had not meant to do anything with the support the troops thread until I remembered this "event" which I had not had time to post since we are cruising down the east coast with occasional wifi. It was and is an interesting story and this guy was a "troop" worth supporting. the statistics on vets is pretty sad - I'm glad this guy found sailing.

gotta run -

sten

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2007 : 07:05:57

I forgot to respond to delliotg regarding her name.

Lysistrata was the previous owners choice and we kept it. She was the goddess of peace - but that isn't why we kept the name. One, she is the only Lysistrata in the Documented Vessel List. There are a lot of Zephyrs and Wind Song's, etc.. But one Lysistrata. Two, she encouraged all of the women to stop having sex with their husbands until they stopped fighting. I find that to be fascinating. read the book - even more titilating... Remember when in the 70's women started working and wearing pant suits, NOW was formed, and Dad's everywhere muttered about woman's libbers? This play was written in 412 BC!!!!

Thirdly, Lysistrata has circumnavigated twice. We are constantly meeting people who know her from somewhere else. That is very cool.

And finally, unless you have a strong preference and are sailing on a lake ONLY - renaming a vessel might be for you. I am not too superstitious, but vessels should only be renamed by red headed virgins wearing a thong! Since I don't have a supply of virgins, let alone a red headed one, and since i think that vessels should be she's and named after women - I left her alone.

sten

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5890 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2007 : 08:16:31

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 In my experience the [Coasties] are loathe to become AAA...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
It's good that you mentioned that, because a lot of people misunderstand the Coast Guard's mission. I met a newbie sailor last summer who was angry with the coasties because they wouldn't tow him when he got stuck this summer. They offered to call a towing company for him, since he didn't have a radio, but they wouldn't tow him.

The Coast Guard's mission is strictly limited to providing assistance in an emergency. Asking them to tow you when your boat and your safety aren't in question would be akin to calling an EMT ambulance to your home and asking them to take you to the Mall to do your shopping.

When you're on the road, AAA will tow you, or bring you gas, or unlock your car, or jump start your car, and the membership fee is very reasonable. When you're on the water, Tow Boat US, and other similar services, will tow you, or bring you fuel, or jump start your boat, and the fee for unlimited coverage, regardless of whether you're on your own boat, or a guest on someone else's boat, was $120. last year. If you're sailing on a big bay or coastal waters, it's a great service. When you think about it, there are a lot of reasons why you might need such assistance, and the cost of one tow starts at about $650. and goes up from there.

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2007 : 08:37:45

We heard about and later met a fellow whose genny came loose in a near gale in Sandy Hook, (Near NYC). He started dragging and was headed for shore. Singlehander on a 39? bendy toy Beneteau. Anyhow, the coasties refused at first to come and help him. And rightfully so. The rule is - loss of life and/or loss of property. Loss of life comes first. If they come out to assist, THEY take command of your vessel. You are no longer in charge. This is not Sea Tow. They in this case towed the guy to a dock and forced the marina to let him tie up to another boat. period... They are not going to help you do anything but save your vessel. The captain in question was forced to jettison his anchor at the Coasties request. In the heat of the moment, he did not think to tie a float to it or mark his position on a GPS. Too bad... It is what it is! They are there, I love em, but you have to take care of yourself FIRST and be prudent. The fellow on the 25 we assisted basically only needed reasurance that he was going to be OK... The Caosties DID NOT need to come out for him provided he got the asssitance he did from other vessels. They would have had the fishing boat and ourselves not asssited him. Leave the radio on! I have met too many sailors who refuse to listen to 16. Ouch!

Sten

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2007 : 10:09:40

In Canada, it is now a requirement to have DSC capable VHF and a DSC endorsement on our VHF licence. It is also my understanding that this is the case in the US as well. A Canadian VHF licence is valid in the US and vice-versa.

That said: the US military was forefront in the development of GPS, the internet, VHF radio, satellite maps (google maps) and etc, then made them available to the world at large. Why would they do this? IMHO, because they have something better and more capable and use the technology that they 'let us have' because it allows them to step in when they need and take control of it. So if there is a radio (VHF) based emergency, they easily - with DSC pinpoint accuracy, locate the offending party and shut him down.
Whenever I hear a story like this, my first inclination is to wonder what information is missing.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2007 : 13:10:22

The US requires all new fixed-mount VHFs to be DSC-capable, but boaters are not required to have one, and VHF licenses are not required in US waters.

Edited by - on

KD4AO
Navigator

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USA
202 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2007 : 14:08:42

Having spent thousands of hours on VHF ham repeaters and simplex I would bet money that the jamming was some other boater having fun or more likely someone literally sitting on their mic ptt button, or maybe the mic was in their pocket or under a cushion or something like that. Professionals have no motivation or need to break the law in such a manner. Bob

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
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USA
1892 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2007 : 15:20:22

Thanks for coming to the aid of a boat in (perceived) distress.

Even before reading down to Arlyn's post, my first thought on the apparent radio jamming was a nearby VHF user holding down their PTT key. I've run into this on several occassions. Sometimes it seems to be people who might have had better judgement a few drinks ago, sometimes bored kids who could benefit from more adult supervision, other times someone literally sitting on their mic.

All that said, I'm not aware of a VHF frequency designated for political commentary. If there is, I'm pretty sure it isn't 16, 22A, or any other used for hailing, official, or emergency traffic. For that we have cell phones, AM talk radio, Fox News, and TrailorSailor.com.

-- Leon S.

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2007 : 16:21:18

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The US requires all new fixed-mount VHFs to be DSC-capable, but boaters are not required to have one, and VHF licenses are not required in US waters.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

We're not required by law to have a VHF radio, but anyone sending from a VHF radio in Canada is required to have a license...however, my experience is that as long as the operator is following protocol, Cdn Coasties are not concerned about visiting US and Cdn recreational boaters.

Edited by - on

At Ease
Admiral

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672 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2007 : 18:09:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 It was and is an interesting story and this guy was a "troop" worth supporting. the statistics on vets is pretty sad - I'm glad this guy found sailing.

gotta run -

sten
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

All troops are worth supporting, and the statistics on vets are not "pretty sad" as 99.9% are doing fine. Many of those that are not doing fine, were not doing fine before they ever got in the service.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2007 : 19:51:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by At Ease
 ...the statistics on vets are not "pretty sad" as 99.9% are doing fine. Many of those that are not doing fine, were not doing fine before they ever got in the service.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Hmmmmm... Sadly, this will be considered a political discussion, so I sent you an e-mail reply and question. Nuff said.

Edited by - on

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