Association Forum - race abandoned (by us)

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

race abandoned (by us)

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

Page: of 2

JimB517
Past Commodore

Member Avatar

USA
3285 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/05/2007 : 06:35:01

It's 4 AM. Would you race 65 miles into northern Baja with this forecast?

...SMALL CRAFT ADVISORY REMAINS IN EFFECT FROM 8 AM PDT THIS MORNING THROUGH THIS EVENING...

.TODAY...WIND SW 10 KT...BECOMING W 15 TO 25 KT WITH GUSTS TO 30 KT. WIND WAVES 1 FT OR LESS...BECOMING 4 TO 5 FT. MIXED SWELL W 3 TO 5 FT AT 8 SECONDS AND S 2 FT AT 12 SECONDS. SLIGHT CHANCE OF SHOWERS EARLY IN THE MORNING.

.TONIGHT...WIND W 15 TO 25 KT WITH GUSTS TO 30...BECOMING NW 10 TO 20 KT AFTER MIDNIGHT. WIND WAVES 4 TO 5 FT...BECOMING 2 TO 3 FT AFTER MIDNIGHT. MIXED SWELL W 4 TO 5 FT AT 8 SECONDS AND S 2 FT AT 12 SECONDS.

Its already blowing 30 on the offshore buoys, but the inshore is still in the 10 - 15 range.

One thing about a race to Baja. There are no ports of refuge, no turning back, and 30 knots of wind at night offshore in a C25 feels like 50. Its 3 hours from Mission Bay just to get to the start. What goes down, must come up - on Monday, a 75 mile day plus 3 or 4 hours clearing customs.

I've been planning and practicing for 2 months. The boat is loaded with food and supplies. I've done a hundred single handed spinnaker sets, gybes and douses in training the last month. One more thing, I'm at home! I spent 4 hours trying to get to the boat last night but all roads to the marina area were closed because of a 10 inch water main break and 4 hours of gushing water. Traffic was backed up to Canada.

I've been devastated ever since they posted that forecast yesterday morning.

Damn, I wish I had my Westsail 32.

I'm going back to bed, hopefully with nice dreams of a spin reach under the stars with 10 knots of breeze and seas 2 to 3.

Indiscipline 1978 FK SR #398

Edited by - JimB517 on 10/05/2007 06:44:01

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2007 : 07:35:23

I am sorry for you, you are a hell of a sailor and deserved better.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2007 : 07:35:35

Not in a Catalina 25....at least not 2 handed in a catalina 25

Edited by - on

bbriner
Captain

Members Avatar

349 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2007 : 08:59:17

Hi Jim - Just wondering if Indiscipline is a Tall rig? Regardless though, it would have been - ** at best ** - a very long, uncomfortable and wet ride. At worst, it would be more about survival than racing.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2007 : 09:31:54

Jim's is a standard... (I've sailed with him--and his signature says SR.) 4-5' wind waves on top of perpendicularly intersecting swells (S and W) is a crazy scene! (Every intersection of the peaks is the sum of the two swells, as is the intersection of the troughs.) The wind waves would send me home by themselves--the rest is gonna be like an elevator gone crazy--not to mention 25-30 knots! Good decision,Jim--also known as a "no brainer"--but I'm sorry it had to screw up what you'd been working for and anticipating for so long.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 10/05/2007 09:40:59

dave holtgrave
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
427 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2007 : 09:35:10

jim

hell i'd just like to be in san diego!!!!

must have been a real traffic jamb.

dave holtgrave
5722 sk/tr
sailing a hot 90 degrees on carlyle lake in southern illinois.

temps should be a high of about 70

Edited by - on

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
1314 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2007 : 10:20:19

Sorry Jim... we know how much it meant to you...

Backed up to Canada eh??

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2007 : 13:44:42

As I sit here in my office it is now 11:20 the exact time of our PHRF Class 5 start.

The Mission Bay buoy is reading waves 7.1 feet at 7 seconds, the winds are 16 gusting 21. The buoy that is outside the Coronado islands the waves are 8.9 feet at 8 seconds with winds 21 gusting 26 knots.

I know staying home is the right decision. I am an experienced sailor, experience says staying in harbor in these conditions (C25 standard rig) is the right call.

I am still down in the dumps.

Hopefully I can make it down to the marina later and start bringing home my offshore gear.

I know it is a vain hope, but I want to prove to those million dollar boat owners that I am a real sailor and that the C25 is a real boat. Not some cute little harbor toy like they say. I may not be able to write a big check like them but I can compete with them, outsail them man to man, and prove myself tougher then them. At least prove it to myself because I don't think they would ever give me any respect even if I finished my class and won 1st place in PHRF double handed division.

What I am finding is that I may be able to fly a spinnaker solo in 15 knots of wind but what I can't do that they can is take on so much risk. I can't risk my boat or my crew. I can't absorb damaged stanchions, sails, sheets, broken shrouds, fly spin in 30 knots of wind, or even get let the boat get knocked down. I can be wet, cold, tired, and manage my fear. I can't afford mylar sails, a Melges 30 or to write checks for a trashed boat.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2007 : 15:12:10

Wisdom has more value than gold.

Edited by - on

Bubba
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
542 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2007 : 21:12:26

I'd rather be here wishing I was out there,
than out there wishing I was here...

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2007 : 23:26:50

Well said, JimB517. A really smart sailor knows when to stay ashore.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2007 : 15:15:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimB517
 As I sit here in my office it is now 11:20 the exact time of our PHRF Class 5 start.

The Mission Bay buoy is reading waves 7.1 feet at 7 seconds, the winds are 16 gusting 21. The buoy that is outside the Coronado islands the waves are 8.9 feet at 8 seconds with winds 21 gusting 26 knots.

I know staying home is the right decision. I am an experienced sailor, experience says staying in harbor in these conditions (C25 standard rig) is the right call.

I am still down in the dumps.

Hopefully I can make it down to the marina later and start bringing home my offshore gear.

I know it is a vain hope, but I want to prove to those million dollar boat owners that I am a real sailor and that the C25 is a real boat. Not some cute little harbor toy like they say. I may not be able to write a big check like them but I can compete with them, outsail them man to man, and prove myself tougher then them. At least prove it to myself because I don't think they would ever give me any respect even if I finished my class and won 1st place in PHRF double handed division.

What I am finding is that I may be able to fly a spinnaker solo in 15 knots of wind but what I can't do that they can is take on so much risk. I can't risk my boat or my crew. I can't absorb damaged stanchions, sails, sheets, broken shrouds, fly spin in 30 knots of wind, or even get let the boat get knocked down. I can be wet, cold, tired, and manage my fear. I can't afford mylar sails, a Melges 30 or to write checks for a trashed boat.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

But there are boats in your price range to mitigate the risk and that can bring you closer to accomplishing some of these things. I really admire your doing these bigger boat long distance races in the C-25. I personally think it might be futile - but just doing the race is always worth the price of admission.

What wind speed/wave height would you have considered going just JAM until the conditions lightenend? I know that for the wasp once the wind hit about 20 the spinnaker didn't do any more than white sails.

dw

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

3072 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2007 : 18:57:36

Race photos here... lots of 'em. Most boats under J&M only.

http://www.da-woody.com/07SD2E/SD2E.html

Edited by - on

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
1314 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2007 : 20:04:52

awesome pictures... thanks for posting this Bruce!!

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2007 : 20:36:45

It was the combination of waves 7 feet and greater but the part that scared me most was the "...gusting 30".

I made it to the boat Friday night and it was blowing. Finally started to die down around 8 PM. Its been windy all day today Saturday in the 15 - 20 knot range. Waves 4 feet at 4 seconds. We certainly would have gone today.

My crew said he wouldn't go if it was still a small craft advisory at 4 AM, which it was. Also keep in mind he does not have foulies (I have good ones). Joe said "maybe if you had a 30...."

I saw one J27 in the photos, he's in PHRF 4. I saw one J29. There were a couple of real good round-ups. I didn't see very many other small boats. I saw not one single picture of PHRF 5 but that is typical. Da Woody favors the big boats and those with women aboard.

There were 6 boats in my class, among them 2 Catalina 30s. I'm interested to see how many boats in my class started and finished.

If I was caught out in those conditions I could have flown my 110 and reefed main and been safe. I could go to 60% jib and double reefed main if it got worse. I've even sailed around Mission Bay and out into the ocean in worse. But there is a big difference in being 2 miles from harbor and having fun maybe getting a little wet for a few hours and heading out for a port 65 miles downwind.

Perhaps if Joe and I were from SF Bay we would have more experience in big seas / big winds.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 10/08/2007 : 11:57:59

Results are up. We were the only boat in PHRF-5 that Did Not Start. About 5 or 6 boats out of 100 across all the classes were DNS. The PHRF-5 boats all finished between 10 PM and 11 PM for a 7 knot average speed.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

3072 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2007 : 20:54:44

Better to error on the side of caution than the other way around.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2007 : 23:05:34

Sounds like the PHRF-5 fleet would've sailed away from you--that all by itself wouldn't be a comfortable feeling in those conditions. So they all started... Were any of them 25-footers? Don't beat yourself up--just get ready to beat them up next year!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 10/10/2007 23:06:12

bbriner
Captain

Members Avatar

349 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2007 : 00:53:50

Jim - if you had gone you would've wished you hadn't. Now you are doing the Armchair Quarterback thing to yourself - Stop! As they say in New Jersey, 'fogettaboutit' and go out and have some fun and get ready for the next one. I had to abandon last weekend's race because the wind stopped in the narrows and the ebb tide was taking me (backwards) straight towards a massive bridge support tower. I had to motor away so I wouldn't get crushed (in hindsight I realize I could've anchored). Ouch. We build up so many expectations only to have to let them go. Oh well - next time!!

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3431 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2007 : 05:17:55

I have a question regarding wave height. I do not doubt that there were heavy seas during the race. You indicated 7 foot and higher waves. From looking at the photos at least from where they were taken at those specific points in the race, I would estimate the waves at about 3 feet. So...if waves later in the race or at different points were more than twice that high as in the photos....seems unbelievable to me. So looking at the photos...do I have that right ? Those photos show waves around 3 feet or so ?

It is just that when I used to sail on Long Island Sound and now in the Potomac, it would seem that with the most blustery days I have been out (usually when caught by changing conditions), I would measure the lowest point to the highest point of an up an coming wave as maybe 3 feet or so. Many years ago, on the Sound, I recall the waves coming over the bow of my ODay 23 and basically exploding on impact. Perhaps that day....waves must have been a bit over 3 foot since that was about the size of the freeboard ...so maybe 4 feet. But I was hightailing it home because the weather changed and we decided not to stay overnight in the cove where we were contemplating staying overnight. Once we heard the changing forecast on the radio with heavy rain and high winds predicted, we decided to go back out and head for home. It is doubtful I would ever have purposely gone out in the wind conditons we experienced on the way home (at that time to Huntington Harbor). Anything much higher than that and I am not sure how I or the boat would be able to handle those conditions especially if having to run with the waves. Yet, I seem to recall some indicating being out and sailing in waves that were even higher than 7 feet ! I do not see how that is possible. Are we talking about each rolling wave or a combo of a rolling wave and generally higher seas ?

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2007 : 07:43:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OLarryR
 I have a question regarding wave height. I do not doubt that there were heavy seas during the race. You indicated 7 foot and higher waves. From looking at the photos at least from where they were taken at those specific points in the race, I would estimate the waves at about 3 feet. So...if waves later in the race or at different points were more than twice that high as in the photos....seems unbelievable to me. So looking at the photos...do I have that right ? Those photos show waves around 3 feet or so ?

It is just that when I used to sail on Long Island Sound and now in the Potomac, it would seem that with the most blustery days I have been out (usually when caught by changing conditions), I would measure the lowest point to the highest point of an up an coming wave as maybe 3 feet or so. Many years ago, on the Sound, I recall the waves coming over the bow of my ODay 23 and basically exploding on impact. Perhaps that day....waves must have been a bit over 3 foot since that was about the size of the freeboard ...so maybe 4 feet. But I was hightailing it home because the weather changed and we decided not to stay overnight in the cove where we were contemplating staying overnight. Once we heard the changing forecast on the radio with heavy rain and high winds predicted, we decided to go back out and head for home. It is doubtful I would ever have purposely gone out in the wind conditons we experienced on the way home (at that time to Huntington Harbor). Anything much higher than that and I am not sure how I or the boat would be able to handle those conditions especially if having to run with the waves. Yet, I seem to recall some indicating being out and sailing in waves that were even higher than 7 feet ! I do not see how that is possible. Are we talking about each rolling wave or a combo of a rolling wave and generally higher seas ?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Larry... On the ocean, there're wind waves (which you're looking at) and "swell" (which is often hard to see in photos). Notice the wave period (8-12 seconds from peak to peak) in the forecast, and imagine that amount of time between peaks. Then imagine those swells coming from two different directions, with intersecting peaks and troughs here and there, and 3' wind waves on top of them... It's sorta like an out-of-control elevator with somebody jumping around inside.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 10/11/2007 07:46:36

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2007 : 07:54:10

Jim: How can he have no foulies for a run like that??

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2007 : 10:07:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">How can he have no foulies for a run like that??<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Thought I did!

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I have 2 pairs of foulies, you can wear one of them. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2007 : 10:54:25

My second pair of foulies is really mountain wear from REI. It is a very light pair of waterproof nylon pants and a waterproof nylon jacket. I wear this often, but it doesn't really keep you dry in heavy rain and green water over the bow. Great for spray and cold.

I have the West Marine 3rd Reef set which I got on sale for $75 (both the pants and jacket). Great deal. These are sturdy, heavy, and uncomfortable to wear in anything but the worst conditions. It does keep you dry, however.

I am over the frustration and depression of DNS. If we had gone it would have been miserable, in fact, we probably would have turned back at the harbor mouth. We were the smallest and slowest boat entered.

I'm now busy planning my next adventure.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3431 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2007 : 11:32:49

Dave,

Thanks for the explanation !

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2007 : 11:51:15

Jim: I looked at the results...
http://www.phrfsandiego.org/PHRFSD2007/2007RaceRESULTS/SanDiego-Ensenada-2007.pdf
...and it looked like the only boat that would've been close to you would've been a lone C-27. He was rated 30 seconds faster than you (?), and finished over 2 hours behind eveybody else. (As I understand it, your rating would have you finishing a half hour after him.) Maybe you would've surprised him, but most likely you would've been lonely souls out there.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 10/11/2007 11:59:15

Page: of 2

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.