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Proud new owner of a 1982 Catalina 25

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ChrisandCheri
1st Mate

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USA
30 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/10/2007 : 19:11:46

Hi all, I just bought my first sailboat. YEEHAAAA!@
I have a question.
The previous owner put a really sweet traveler on the hatch. Harken.
Only problem is it is sitting about an inch or 2 aft of my 2 dog hatch latches. Well, you should have been there when one of the latches decided to call it quits in 25 knots of wind. Holy Guaqamole.
Luckily my brother(290 lbs.) was able to sit on the hatch while holding his beverage and that bit of quick thinking got us back to the dock(took the mainsail down also). It looks like the screws pulled straight out without any other damage.
Keeping in mind that this is my first boat ever, I asked the boatyard manager how to fix it. He suggested filling the holes with epoxy and redrilling. Any thoughts?
Also, I just got 2 more dog latches(not cheap) and plan on adding them for a total of 4. Should I put them forward or astern(new boat vocabulary)of the original 2.
Thanks to all of you, this is a great site!!!!!

1982 Catalina 25 std rig
Cayuga Lake, NY

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2007 : 20:01:24

First, a question. Is the traveller really mounted to the hatch? The hatch is the part that slides forward and aft to allow access to the cabin. The Pop-top is the portion of the cabin roof that raises up to allow improved headroom.

If the traveller is mounted to the hatch... IMHO that's a bad thing and a problem waiting to happen.
If the traveller is mounted to the pop top, thats another less than optimum setup... as you've discovered.

Epoxy filling, re-drilling are standards for repairing pulled out screws... however, what you really need is a more substantial securing of the pop-top to the cabin structure... one with through-bolts and not depending on wood screws threaded into fiberglass.

Can you post photos of your setup ?

Edited by - on

ChrisandCheri
1st Mate

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USA
30 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2007 : 20:53:44

Edited by - on

ChrisandCheri
1st Mate

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USA
30 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2007 : 20:54:26

Hope this helps Clambeach!

Edited by - on

KiteKraemer
Navigator

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191 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2007 : 23:29:00

I haven't seen any 25's with travellers. Mine has what one could call a "traveller" just above the rudder. It's only 2 feet long.
I've seen many that are mounted above the hatches on 27's and larger, but an aft traveller works just fine on any 25. PICS?

Edited by - on

ChrisandCheri
1st Mate

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USA
30 Posts

Response Posted - 09/11/2007 : 06:14:24

Hey Kite, check the picture I sent above. The traveler is on the pop top. What do you think about the dog hatches? I am going to add 2 more. Forward or aft of the originals?

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/11/2007 : 07:53:28

Welcome Chris and Cheri... Your DPO (_ Previous Owner) apparently sailed only in light winds!

IMHO, you can't have enough dogs to make that a viable base for a traveler, even if they're thru-bolted. All of the forces are going the wrong way. The poptop design is for sealing something that's essentially held down by gravity--not for holding it against strong upward and sideways forces. You're lucky it didn't rip the top off the legs, or the legs off the cabin after the dogs let go.

A mid-boom sheeting traveler should be mounted to the cabintop on both sides of the pop-top, or at the companionway, seat-to-seat (as several people have done). The problem with a cabintop setup is you have to do something fancier like a hinged traveler to be able to use the pop-top. (BTW, either way is class-illegal.)

If I had wanted a better traveler and mid-boom sheeting for my (previous) C-25 with poptop, I probably would have mounted one across the seats against the companionway sill to retain the pop-top function. While you're sorting this out, you might want to return to the factory setup if it's still there--using the little bar at the center of the transom with a little car that rides against the underside of the bar, and a tang at the end of the boom. Does your boat still have that hardware? (I think I see the bar.) I believe Catalina Direct has some replacements at http://www.catalinadirect.com/ . Unfortunately, your bimini location might interfere with the stock setup... Hmmmmm......

Welcome to the group, and congratulations on your new baby! You'll get through this and have a great time!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 09/11/2007 08:02:58

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 09/11/2007 : 08:33:01

First, welcome to the fleet, Chris and Cheri!

I'm thinking along the same lines as Dave, the pop-top is not a good place to anchor anything. A DPO of my boat had mounted a winch and line clutch directly to the pop top, but either he or another DPO smartly removed them leaving only the filled in bolt holes as evidence.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 09/11/2007 : 09:07:24

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ChrisandCheri

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Ok so your PO lacked any concept of physics and as a result you have a very dangerous boat. If you get caught in a storm you could rip the poptop off and then beat the boat or worse yet a person with it as the boom flails around with nothing holding it in place. It looks like the PO's goal was to put an oversized bimini on the boat and to do that he came up with his inappropriate solution. Is it oversized? It looks like it covers too much of the aft part of the cockpit to be the right size. If you move your mainsheet back to the end of the boom where it belongs then it needs to clear the corners of the bimini as you go off the wind, if the mainsheet fiddle block on the end of the boom will not clear then the bimini is oversized. If that is simply an illusion from the photo then you are in luck. If it is oversized then you need to decide how you feel about that bimini. Quick and easy is get the oversized one off the boat and put the mainsheet back where it belongs on the transom. New appropriate bimini are only $200-$400, (much less than what you need to do to keep the cabintop traveler).
If it is oversized and you will not give it up then you should do one thing immediately, buy a proper cabintop traveler system. The cheap way to go is with garhauer.com

It is interesting that you still have mast winches and nothing led back on your cabintop, that works to your advantage as you need to move the towers to the cabintop and off the poptop. (You must sail in very light wind, moving lines back to the cockpit is a major safety consideration in high wind locations.) You will need new track as well since the old track is too short. While your PO did one thing right in using multiple block to spread the load along the boom, it is still debatable whether or not the Catalina 25 boom can handle the traveler/mainsheet forces as a third class lever. {EDIT: Crap those are bimini supports! the mainsheet is only going to a single bail!!! Well, if you decide to keep this design and attempt to make it safer, you need at least two bails about 2 feet apart to attempt to keep your boom from folding!} The gooseneck was also not designed for the downward forces created by that location. I would upgrade to a fixed gooseneck at the least.
Our boats are wonderful and among boats of the era they are over built and well designed but what your PO did is well outside any safety factors that one could reasonably expect. (Did your PO ever sail or was it a dock boat?)
Sorry if I sound blunt but you have a serious problem.
Welcome aboard and enjoy the forum. You can see a lot of hardware and other ideas on the site in my sig.

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 09/11/2007 09:27:29

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/11/2007 : 09:58:25

The bimini is undoubtedly too far aft for end-boom sheeting, but that might be solvable by moving the bimini forward (as most of us have them) so it's partially over the companionway--not a bad thing anyway. It only takes remounting the two anchors. I'd do that, re-rig the stock end-boom sheeting, and then decide whether there's a more desirable setup that's safer than what you have. It won't be as simple, but getting back to stock should be.

I hope you don't feel like we're ruining your newfound joy! We just don't want something worse to happen, and as Frank said, somebody to get hurt. The stock arrangement with the bimini forward a bit should get you back on the water, safe and sound, in a jiffy.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/11/2007 : 10:09:58

BTW, another thing to understand here is that the stock end-boom sheeting with the extra-long boom gives leverage to the mainsheet and reduces its effort (and the stress on the traveler). That mid-boom arrangement, maybe 1/3 of the way from the mast to the end of the boom, increases the leverage of the sail against the mainsheet tackle and the traveler. It also might put a considerably larger force at that point on the boom than the boom is designed for. Like Frank, I don't like the look of that.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 09/11/2007 : 12:55:07

By the way, is a barney post class legal if the original traveler is kept on the transom? A lot of the C-22 racers have gone that route? Is it even a practical option on a C-25 (especially a TR), disregarding the issue of conflicting with a bimini. For those not familiar with the term, the mainsheet would run from the end of boom block with becket to the traveler car block, back through the end of boom block to a mid-boom block and down to a swivel block with cleat sitting on a post anchored to the cockpit floor. One guy I know even routed his traveler lines forward to the post. Not saying I want to do it, just asking the question. Advantage: it eliminates having to look back to adjust the mainsheet ( my only pet peeve with C-22's and C-25's) and makes it easier for crew to adjust the main.

Edited by - dmpilc on 09/11/2007 12:57:24

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/11/2007 : 15:21:22

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dmpilc
 By the way, is a barney post class legal if the original traveler is kept on the transom?...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">That's a question for the Chief Measurer, but I'll offer the opinion that if the standard traveler is controlling the angles of the sheet to the boom end, then it should be legal. The rest of what you describe is for convenience--it shouldn't alter the performance of the boat. What should be illegal is a traveler that allows more travel and better sheeting angles than stock, as about any traveler for mid-boom sheeting will.

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 09/11/2007 : 16:12:04

C-25 racers use a headknocker which is a swivel block with cam cleat several feet forward on the bottom of the boom so the mainsheet tail hangs in front of the skipper, the purchase is still back on the traveler..

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 09/11/2007 17:50:39

ChrisandCheri
1st Mate

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USA
30 Posts

Response Posted - 09/11/2007 : 17:49:30

Jeez Louise....
Way to bum me out...
I have to agree that the traveler is in a bad spot. An awful lot of pressure on a very weak spot. Also, it would only go bad at the absolutely most dangerous time.(very high winds) I agree as well that the pressure is less by going to the end of the boom. I still have the traveller bar in place. And the broker used that new traveller as a selling point. Looks like I have an extra traveller now. Thanks guys for the input. I actually do appreciate it.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 09/11/2007 : 18:14:58

In a couple of years when you are old salts it will make a great PO story; we all have'm.
I like your '82, in the photo it looks like my old '82, white over camel. Almost half my site, and the majority of my projects that are worth looking at, are photos of my '82.
I am really curious about how you resolve the traveler, please keep us posted. I upgraded my traveler and other controls at the transom about as much as I could. I learned about rebuilding the traveler car on this forum and used some Spinlock clutches to replace the stock traveler control line cleats. There are lots of other traveler control line mods around too.

My moto is that if you have to mess with anything... upgrade it. Projects are a big part of boat ownership for me.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/11/2007 : 22:42:41

Cool stuff, Frank! Uhhhhh.... Chris (or Cheri?)... Frank's picture goes a little beyond the stock traveler that I suggested could get you back on the water sometime before it's under a foot of ice... One strange little traveler car that fits the bar, and two cam cleats... That's about all you really need. Some of it (the cleats?) might still be there, and the rest (the car) can be obtained if you don't have it. The car looks like this:

...and costs $43 from Catalina Direct. See http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=396

Breathe deeply, and then take it one little step at a time:

1. Restore the stock traveler.
2. Go sailing.
3. Figure out how to position your bimini for the new mainsheet location (maybe next year).

Edited by - on

ChrisandCheri
1st Mate

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USA
30 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2007 : 05:42:53

thanks again Frank and Dave(and others). I actually believe I might still have that car on the traveller. Things are looking up fellas. Great forum!

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ChrisandCheri
1st Mate

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USA
30 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2007 : 05:52:39

BTW-I just got the extra 2 latches in the mail(35.00 each). Does anyone use 4 latches, or is 2 enough when I move the traveller back? I have 10 days to send back I believe.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2007 : 06:49:21

It is your call, thousands have just two. The newer 25s came with 4, 4 will make your top more weather proof by closing the top more uniformely. You have never told us where you sail.
You can see both sets in this photo.

forward location, (Catalia Direct ssuggests the second location to be on the forward edge of the top.)

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 09/12/2007 08:44:47

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2007 : 09:01:23

The one other part that might have been removed (since it would be an annoyance) is a stainless tang (like a heavy strap) hanging from the end of the boom by one bolt. That's your attachment point for the upper block. I believe CD has them if you don't.

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KiteKraemer
Navigator

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191 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2007 : 00:11:18

Yes, Welcome C&C!

For some reason I couldn't see the image until I clicked it-- sorry. That's kinda cool to have a traveller there. I haven't seen it before. but I agree with what Dave and Frank said, DAVE B--FRANK You guys are the bomb! You hit the bulls eye every time! I'm lucky to hit the target!

Once I get my little sea dog where I want it I'll post some pics. Over the summer I did a bit of work to unicorn. As far as your travellers go, it looks great--but it is just one more thing to smash your foot on...

Edited by - KiteKraemer on 09/13/2007 00:12:29

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2007 : 08:52:31

Thanks Kite... I don't even own a C-25 now, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express... and learned most of what I know from Leon Sisson (keeper of the soundest C-25 on the water), Bill Holcomb (the quiet master), and a host of others here. Frank and I seem to be the ones who jump in with the bad news...

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 09/13/2007 08:54:34

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2007 : 11:08:32

Welcome to the wonderful world of C25 - and to this forum where sailors like us find out how we really should have done things, from the likes of the masters of the craft.

I could not see your pictures. Have you tried Shutterfly or any of the other pic posting sites?

Edited by - on

ChrisandCheri
1st Mate

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USA
30 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2007 : 17:48:09

No I have not Stampeder. I will look into that. I am sailing on Cayuga Lake in NY.

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