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Solar Panel, Gas Generator, OB?

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Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/10/2007 : 14:01:35

Since I park my boat (on the trailer) next to the lake and have no power supply I have to decide on an alternative way of charging my batteries and would like your opinions. I sail on weekends only and sleep 1 night. This summer I may take the boat out to the coast and sail for about 4 days.

As I see it, I have 3 choices:
1. Solar Panels
18W, 1.2A manufactured by Sunsei. 39" x 19" x 2". $160 with charge controller.

2. Gasoline Power Generator
I have an excellent marine charger that charges my batteries (at 10 amps) in about 1 hour then goes to trickle charge (2 amp) to keep the batteries topped off. So I was thinking that a small generator would need to run only for 1-1.5 hours. Another benefit is that we can always turn it on when we need to use more power (wife's hairdryer, microwave, TV, etc). I found this small generator at Costco for $240. 1000-1200W, 2.5HP 4 stroke engine and consumes about 50 cents an hour. 53 lbs, 16"(L) X 12"(W) X 14"(H).

3. Use my Honda 9.9 OB
My Honda has an alternator of 2A. How long would it take the batteries to charge up at that rate? Wouldn't it take about 5X longer than using 10A? If I have to look at running it for 5 hours a day, then this solution becomes prohibitive.

Steve Blackburn, Calgary, AB
C250WB - 1999 - Hull 396

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 07/10/2007 14:09:57

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 07/10/2007 : 14:17:33

Steve, I'd vote for the solar. Why have to listen to the Honda or the generator and deal with the added fuel and mechanical issues? Solar seems like such a complementary item to a sailboat.

We once looked at a 250 where the guy put a generator in his dinghy, pushed it out about 100' and used an outdoor extension cord to the boat.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 07/10/2007 14:17:56

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 07/10/2007 : 14:29:35

I vote for solar as well, I've got a small panel that keeps my battery topped up pretty well, and that's in the sunny PNW.

If you're going to go for a generator, might as well get one that's useful in more than one place and is still small, and especially quiet. I bought a [url="http://item.express.ebay.com/New-Quiet-KIPOR-Digital-KGE1000Ti-Gas-power-Generator_W0QQitemZ200126422702QQihZ010QQcmdZExpressItem"]Kipor[/url] 3kW generator last year after 7 days of no power. I'm pretty sure they turned the power back on about the same time I was handing the guy the cash for the generator, but I'm keeping it anyway. At ten feet you can hold a normal conversation, at twenty, you almost can't hear it. The link above is to the guy I bought mine from. He currently doesn't have any of the 3kW ones listed, but probably has them in stock. I paid $750 for mine, he charges $800 delivered (I picked mine up). It's the inverter type, similar to the Honda EU line, so they get more power out of a smaller, quieter unit.

My $0.02

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 07/10/2007 : 15:48:26

They say this generator is quiet, but I can envision myself start it up in the morning with my mooring neighbors looking at me weird as if I would be mowing my lawn at 5AM on a Sunday morning. Although solar is slow with a low amperage of 1.2A (less than my trickle charger of 2A) it has the advantage of maintaining batteries througout the week. 18W should be plenty and have my batteries at 100% every weekend when I arrive. I have 2 batteries, and hear that 5W will just about keep it leveled off. So 10W for keeping them topped +8W of charging power. I guess my wife will just have to dry her hair the old fashion way. LOL.

What do you think of the solar panel I found?

Edited by - on

Jarrett Anderson
1st Mate

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61 Posts

Response Posted - 07/10/2007 : 16:38:54

The marina were I keep Victory2 has no hook up so I rely on both solar and the motor. The solar panel, Sunsei SE-200 (pg 524 WM) maintains the house battery and the Yamaha 8hp w/hydraulic lift (big battery drain) maintains the cranking battery. I have the Battery Link ACR (pg 510 WM)that connects the two batteries for charging purposes and disconnects during discharge. I spend week ends on the boat and have never had a problem running the stereo or lights. An amp meter would be nice but that is another project.

Jarrett _/)

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 07/10/2007 : 18:44:11

Jarrett,

I can only find the Sunsei-400 and 1200 on the WM site. The Sunsei 400 is only 6W, so that can't be right. I guess you meant Sunsei-1200? If so the 1200 is the same panel as I showed above at 18W. Correct?

I also have an electric start on my engine, but no hydraulic lift. Both my batteries are connected together at all times. Should I also dedicate a battery for cranking the engine? Wouldn't I loose out on the long run?

You guys have any tips on attaching the panel so I don't get it stolen?

PS: I'm under strict orders from the Admiral to install a stereo soon.

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 07/10/2007 18:53:10

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 07/10/2007 : 18:56:36

Steve,
Sent you an email, I've got a friend who manufactures & sells solar panels. If you're interested, shoot me a line.

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 07/10/2007 : 19:13:28

David, I'm interested. However no email as of yet.

Is your friend in the Seattle area? I'll be in Vancouver in 2 weeks, only 1 hour away I believe.

I'll try to email you then.

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 07/10/2007 19:14:25

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 07/10/2007 : 20:27:50

Ok Dave, shed some light on it
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I've got a friend who manufactures & sells solar panels<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Paul

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Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1913 Posts

Response Posted - 07/10/2007 : 21:27:21

Hi Steve,
I keep our boat in the water year round. Our slip does not have power so I opted for solar.

I have a 15W panel and installed it on the stern, here's my [url="http://www.bellsouthpwp2.net/t/o/tompotter/my%20web/page14.html"]setup[/url].

We have plenty of 12 volt toys to keep our 2 deep cycle 27 batteries warm, VHF, GPS/Depth Finder, Stereo, Tiller Pilot, 3 cabin fans and a son who (I call "AMP EATER") keeps his DVD player on the whole time out.

We've made a few 5 and 6 day/night cruises and experienced zero battery issues.

I did replace my cabin and anchor lights with LED bulbs to ease the draw.

Read up on the solar panels, there are a few different types out there. Some work good in low light conditions like the one I have, which is a "ridged amorphous". Its big draw back, its made of glass. If I had to do over again I would stay away from the glass ones.

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 07/10/2007 : 22:26:16

Excellent. Solar it is then. Glad you posted Tom since I remembered seeing some guy (you) install this on the catbird seats. This is exactly how I want to install mine. Where did you get the stainless tubing and fittings?

All I need now is to find a panel. We went out tonight to Costco and they don't carry what they advertise on their web site. I may have to wait 3 weeks for it :-(.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 07/10/2007 : 23:08:38

My friends Chris & Julia own [url="http://www.iqmarine.com"]IQMarine[/url], which is based out of the Seattle area. They manufacture solar panels and have recently outfitted several of the Trans-Atlantic 650 boats with them. I've helped with the occasional CAD drawing & building of jigs, but most of the manufacturing is done in North or South Carolina (don't quote me). They got sick & tired of having to buy crap while refitting a Polaris 43, so they started researching companies outside of the mainstream, and spending time working with lots of solar cell manufacturers, wind turbines, etc. They're also working with architects & contractors trying to get their panels into new buildings to be used for night lighting, etc. If you're interested in their stuff, drop them a line (or me, I can get you in contact), tell them you found out about them through me. Dunno if that'll get you a deal or not, but at least you'll have a starting point for your conversation.

Edited by - on

Jarrett Anderson
1st Mate

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61 Posts

Response Posted - 07/11/2007 : 11:21:50

Steve,
It is the Sunsei SE-400 on pg 524 2006 wm catalogue. I have also seen it at Orchard Supply Hardware. This model is a good size. I mounted it on the stern rail with the Solar Grip same page.

I personally think it is a good idea to separate the batteries during discharge. That is why I really like the Battery Link ACR (pg 510 WM 2006 catalogue). Just this last weekend I towed a motor boat about a mile into the marina. The guy had two batteries linked and ran his stereo too long. He did not have enough juice to turn that big V8 over and no back up. It was actually pretty cool that my little high thrust Yamaha 8hp pulled his boat and pushed mine at hull speed! It would have been more dramatic in the marina if I had pulled him in under sail.

Jarrett_/)

Edited by - on

Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1913 Posts

Response Posted - 07/11/2007 : 12:25:44

If I had a large motor like on a power boat or a diesel inboard I would have a separate starting battery. But for me one "very easy" pull on the starting cord and my 8hp starts right up.

I have two 27 Deep cycle's hooked parallel, no switches to remember, etc.

There are precautions and draw backs when you go parallel. If one battery goes you have to replace both. Also you need to have the same size and age battery, you can't replace just one, you need to replace them in a set.

That being said mine are on their 3rd year no problems. (knock on wood)

Edited by - on

Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1913 Posts

Response Posted - 07/11/2007 : 19:46:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Blackburn
 Where did you get the stainless tubing and fittings?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Steve,
I got the 7/8 SS tube from my local sail loft, they built my bimini a couple years ago and let me have a 8' section of SS tube pretty cheap. WM or Boaters World can order the SS tube for you if they don't have it in stock. Another option would be a shinny aluminum tube, its much cheaper than SS.

Most of the fittings came from e-bay. It took me a few weeks to get everything but was much cheaper than I could get at WM.

I got my [url="http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/category_6970_770399+6228"]15 Watt Solar Panel[/url] from Northern Tools. I just looked, its on sale again for $79.99.

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 07/11/2007 : 20:44:27

Tom,

I just placed my online order from Costco. $169 with all taxes, shipping and includes a charge controller, then saw you posting.

However I remembered that I learn't the hard way ordering from the USA to Canada. Last time I got a heck of a good deal on ebay for a 17" WestMarine SS-200 BBQ. Worth $200, I paid $83. But here was the calculation: $83 + 32 (shipping) + 45 (suprise COD for customs by UPS!) + $10 handleing fee (UPS theives again) = $170. Wow saved a whole $30! lol

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 07/11/2007 20:45:14

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 07/12/2007 : 16:41:28

Steve I got the same bbq but from WM. Last Friday they had sale plus extra 10% off. I perfer to buy from them cuz you can return it. I too checked ebay but when you add up extra costs, not much less. I think I paid $179.
BTW, re the solar, I saw the one listed on this forum, price is great but the panel does not roll up that I know of. I prefer that type on our small boat. I did see some online at costco, but a little more in cost as well as watts. Good luck

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 07/12/2007 : 18:52:49

Piseas,

When evaluating my needs I had a look at the roll-ups as well. With a 50W I could have managed to use it only during the week-end and bring it with me weekdays so I don't get it stolen. Costs for a 50W is something like $800. With lower wattages you need to keep it in the light as much as possible, so you have to constantly move it around where you would mount it differently under sail vs stopped. I honestly don't see where I would "stick" a roll-up under sail. With an 18W driving only 1.2 amps, the panel has to be mounted permenantly anyways (you always want it charging your battery). The way Tom installed his put's it really out of the way.

I don't think I'll mind it at all + looking fowards to the spoiler effect and hope to gain some speed since it will "look" racier. LOL. ;-)

About the ebay extra costs, at no point was it mentioned that I would pay that extra $55 of customs and paperwork. It was a real suprise when it came home. So I went back to the UPS site, and buried about 5 levels down you can see where they mention that some extra charges may apply. It's total bull*** because between Canada and the USA we have NAFTA. Heck, I didn't even pay duty on my boat when I got it from Oregon this year! Googled my problem and found a site where people got screwed like me, some are intenting a class action suit. What can you do when the UPS guy is there in front of you asking for the money holding your new toy hostage? You pay the brown man and then try to figure out what the hell just happened.

At least they don't misrepresent themselves through their color. I hear using normal postage is the way to go and no duty or superfluous charges incur.

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 07/12/2007 18:57:10

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2007 : 23:23:09

Just got my 18W 1.2 amps panel today.

Tom, did you buy or make that swivel block where the panel attaches to the rod? Was wondering how I would achieve an adjustable swivel and that is perfect.

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 07/18/2007 23:28:36

Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1913 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2007 : 11:17:19

Hey Steve,
I attached 2 strips of teak to the solar panel, one on each end and then attached the rail clamps to the teak.

Here's a [url="http://www.emarineinc.com/products/mounts/hardware.html"]website[/url] that will be helpful for you. I bought my clamps through them.

Hope this helps. Check out that website, there are plenty of solar panel mounting ideas.

Edited by - on

johnsonp
Admiral

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USA
606 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2007 : 12:36:25

The first thing I would do is install a battery charger to control all sources of charging.
For example Xantrex battery chargers are able to recharge multiple battery banks simultaneously, know when to stop charging to avoid cell damage, and provide exceptional charging performance when charging from inconsistent line voltage. I used the 100 model on my C250.
If you run a solar panel setup I would also use a voltage regulator on the SP one with standby of less than 2 milli Amps and some are even in the micro Amp range.
Non amorphous SP last a lot longer, but are more expensive.
Some SP come with blocking diodes somedon't but a good voltage regulator will always have them.
paulj

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2007 : 23:59:57

Tom: Thanks for the website. Do you have the other source for the elbow joints and rod ends that pivot? I wonder if I could find these in RV or boat shops?

PaulJ: I have a very nice marine battery charger that plugs into 110V. Are you saying that these battery chargers can also work with my solar panel? For now I have a [url="http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/partner/viewproduct?id=22140"]Phocos[/url] CM04 charge controler. Only thing is that I am charging 2 batteries that are linked together. I have connected my charge controler on only one of these batteries (this is also how I was charging with my bigger 110V charger). Any recommendations to do otherwise?

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 07/20/2007 00:00:40

Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1913 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2007 : 08:57:42

Steve,
You can find those parts just about any where that sells bimini hardware. WM has them, defender, etc. I picked mine off e-bay, much cheaper. Just do a search in goggle or ebay for bimini hardware. Some are chrome some are SS depends on what you want.

hint when building the frame;
There is only one set screw on the 90 degree elbows and bimini ends that hold them on the tubes. With the weight of the solar panel the frame I built would twist in the elbow and bimini ends. I solved that problem with lock tight(red). Once I had all the pieces cut and put together and happy with the fit on the boat. I took a sharpie pen and marked a line on the elbows/bimini ends and tubes (so I would know where to line it all back up after I took it apart). I took it all apart and put a film of lock tight on the elbows/bimini ends and tubes then reassembled it. I made sure the sharpie marks lined up so the frame would be square/level then tighten the set screws and allowed it to dry before I installed it on the boat again.

Edited by - on

johnsonp
Admiral

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USA
606 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2007 : 11:59:27

I'm not sure why you purchased this volt regulator with this statement noted.
PLEASE NOTE: This controller is for positive grounding applications. Most systems require negative grounding; please be sure this item is appropriate for your system before ordering!
paulj

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2007 : 15:51:47

Paul, I'm not quite sure I understand. I am kind of an electrical dummy. The controller came with the solar panel as a kit. The kit boasts its for RV, boats, and camping applications. What is all of this postive and negative grounding mean?

Edited by - on

johnsonp
Admiral

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USA
606 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2007 : 19:40:19

I'm no expert just used a lot of differnt solar panels and regulator set ups over the last 25 years years.
I saw the SP package you bought, nice kit.
What all this means is.... you bought a package deal SP instead of buying parts individually thus the manufacture is saying all these components work together.
This also means you can leave your SP hooked up to the battery while you use your higher Amp battery charger.

Also you bought an amorphous SP and has a 5 year warranty on power output versus a crystalline SP which has a 20-year limited warranty on power output.
Next the experiment.... place a 1/8" dowel or tree branch down the middle of the SP and note the difference in power out put.
paulj

Edited by - on

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