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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Difficult to pin the furler, shrouds too tight?

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Steve Blackburn
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Canada
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Initially Posted - 06/05/2007 : 13:26:40

As with Paul, I raise and lower my mast often. As I am developing a feeling for the boat, I feel that the shrouds are pulling way to hard on the mast (keeping it back) where I have to winch it too tight for my tastes so I can pin down the furler.

The former owner would leave his mast raised. So I'm guessing the shrouds were probably very tight being a "permanent" installation. Once my mast is all set and I apply tension on the backstay everything looks/feels balanced. But pinning my furler is a stressful step as I am afraid something is going to snap.

So my question is: Do you guys loosen the shroud turbuckles a little (like 2-3 full turns) to let the mast go forwards slightly so pinning the furler is not an issue, then re-tighten the shrouds back 2-3 turns to the intended position? Or maybe I shouldn't need to touch the shrouds in normal circumstances when properly tensioned in the first place?

Steve Blackburn, Calgary, AB
C250WB - 1999 - Hull 396

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/05/2007 : 17:19:46

We don't take the mast down often but, yes, you can loosen the shrouds by turning the turnbuckles and then tighten later. I mess with the shrouds fairly often looking for the optimimum settings. It is not an exact science so feel free to experiment and certainly to loosen them so that it is easy to set the forestay. Also CatalinaDirect sells devices that let you loosen the shrouds and then reset a lever that puts them back at full tension. Made specifically for people who trailer often.

Edited by - on

bear
Admiral

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Response Posted - 06/05/2007 : 17:58:39

I go the same way and loosen the shrouds, actually in the Fall pullout. What has helped quite a bit is I count the threads on the turnbuckles before loosening and write the number of exposed threads next to the turnbuckle in pencil and reset the shrouds in the spring to the previous settings. "Just my two cents worth."

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Tom Potter
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Response Posted - 06/05/2007 : 18:43:27

I don't mess with the shrouds. I loosen the forestay as much as it will loosen and release one of the split backstays. That usually gives me enough slack to put the forward pin in. Once the pin is in, I reattach the one split backstay. Its easier to work with the backstay pin than the forestay pin. I have the forestay turnbuckle marked so I know how tight to tighen it back.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 06/05/2007 : 19:42:32

Steve... the mast raising system that uses the trailer pulls the mast from a position just under the spreaders. It would be much easier once the mast is raised, to hook the jib halyard to the bow pulpit and then winch on the jib halyard to pull the mast truck forward.

Even so... if the rig is tuned firm, either of two things must be done to get the forestay pinned. 1. Loosen some shrouds. Personally I like to loosen two shrouds rather than the forestay. The reason is that it seems easier than lifting the furler luff and I use circle pins on those two shrouds rather than cotter pins whereas I'm reluctant to use circle clips on the forestay. As noted, I've written the turns needed on the port turnbuckles... only one side is necessary.

The other technique has been noted on this forum and may be in the tech section. It uses a stretching tackle between the bow eye and at some point on the furler... wish I had more details on it.

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
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Canada
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Response Posted - 06/05/2007 : 20:53:33

Very interesting guys. Confirms what I was thinking.

I forgot to mention that I indeed have the mast raising system on my trailer. I'm missing is about 1-1/2 inch to just comfortably put the forestay pin in. To get the extra 1-1/2 inch I have to winch in it way to hard. All this time my backstay is still loose (I have the backstay tensioning pulleys, positioned as high as possible). So definitely it's my shrouds that are too tight. I'll just count the turns and set them back once I'm done. I'll also have a serious look into Randy's suggestion of the Catalina Direct device.

Mistake #1: I used a much to small line to connect the winch and mast.
Mistake #2: Shroud tension to tight, which requires way to much winch.
Mistake #3: Backstay not loosened.

Result:
After bringing the boat home after purchasing her I decided to raise the mast to see if anything was missing before finding out at the lake. The first time went well, but the second time the line used to tie in between my winch and the mast (just below the top of the shrouds) snapped.
Because of the tension of the shrouds the mast just jolted back. Same principle as a bow and arrow I guess. I desperately tried to hold on to the roller furler and did a decent job on slowing down the decent, but near the end no man can hold on and it went crashing on top of the cabin. Pierced a 1 inch hole all the way through the top. I repaired it very well, nor mast or people were hurt. Needless to say I never want to go through this nerve racking situation again. You can now understand why I am so stressed when pinning the forstay.

So here is what I learnt to the benefit of all other newbies like me who are learning the hard way:
1. Loosen your backstay. Pulleys up, and turnbuckle leaving a good 1/4 inch of threads on both end for safety reasons. Also make sure the small 8 inch safety line is attached in case the turnbuckle would give.
2. Loosen your shrouds a little to allow the mast to move forward when pinning the forestay.
3. Make sure you use a good sized line and the correct kit for raising your mast.
4. NEVER but NEVER have people standing in the cockpit or at the back while you are raising the mast. Fortunately I had the decency to think of that one prior to my incident.

Now I can laugh about it, but I looked and felt real stupid that day.

TIMBER!!!!

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 06/05/2007 20:54:31

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2007 : 21:02:38

Forestay Quick Release Lever C-25. I guess this would work on my 250?
http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display& Product_ID=486

Our forestay quick release lever is custom made for your Catalina 25. Simply thread the quick release lever onto the stud on the lower end of your forestay. To lower your mast for trailering, just pull the pin and release the lever. When released, the lever extends the shroud 3? providing plenty of slack for easy removal from the chainplate. To step the mast again, just tension the rig with the lever. The mast will be tuned just like it was last time! May be used just on the forestay or on stud equipped forward lowers as well.
The quick release lever and boot are typically used aboard those Catalina 25's which are trailered regularly. They may be used singularly on either the forestay or the backstay. For the ultimate in speedy rigging, use in sets of three on the forestay and the two forward lower shrouds.

Add a quick release pin at the bottom of the lever to eliminate the need for cotter pins or ring pins and make the process just that much quicker.

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 06/05/2007 21:03:09

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 06/05/2007 : 22:29:18

That should work. You can call the CD tech support line and they will verify. Sorry to hear about the accident but glad no one was hurt.

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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Response Posted - 06/05/2007 : 23:21:38

Steve, one of the issues of using the mast raising strap to pull the mast up, is that when the mast is up, the backstay if connected prevents the top of the mast going forward no matter what tension you put on the strap. So having the backstay loose is a must. In our case, we don't even connect the backstay until the jib stay pin is in place. The shrouds on our model (2005) are aft of the mast, so they prevent the mast coming forwards beyond it's correct position.

However, 1&1/2 inches short is quite a bit. Is your stay connected to the correct pin in the mast head? (it should be in the aft most pin in front of the mast.)

Paul

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
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Response Posted - 06/06/2007 : 01:50:32

Hi Paul, Thinking about it I think my forestay head pin is connected to the wrong pin (the most forward one). That would certainly do it! I read about your post that the forward pin hole is for a Spinnaker. My shrouds are also located behind the mast so this would keep it from going TIMBER on me while I winch.

Nonetheless this whole rigging up takes me about 2.5 hours if not 3. From the time I arrive at the Marina, to the time the boat is ready to go in the water most of the day has gone by. This chews up lot's of time considering we sail only on weekend. I must find a faster way and will be looking into renting a slip at a lake about 1:45 hours away from here. You see my itinerary looks like this: Leave at 9AM, arrive at lake at 10:45, Boat in the water at 15:00. By 15:00 I'm so tired that it just drains all the enjoyment. And you know what's funny, it's typical here in Alberta that the winds die down around 15:00, so twice I had no wind and had to motor only to sail maybe 45 minutes in my whole day. The next day I sailed 2 hours, then off it was to packing everything up since I have to plan about 5 hours ahead from in the water to home.

It's either going to be a slip, or a trailer parking at the lake. In either case the mast and rigging stay up.

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 06/06/2007 01:53:20

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 06/06/2007 : 05:16:42

It would be nice if the quick tensioner could be used on the forestay... but they don't work in conjunction with a furler.

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Turk
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Response Posted - 06/06/2007 : 05:30:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">[i] Is your stay connected to the correct pin in the mast head? (it should be in the aft most pin in front of the mast.)

Paul
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Also, are you trying to connect your front stay to the wrong hole in the bow? I remember one year I pulled and pulled on the mast as my forestay was about 1 inch to short, only to realize I was trying to reach the furthest (and highest, I believe) hole on the bow where I thought looked the most appropriate. Wrong pin hole! Use the pinning hole most aft on the bow. I know this sounds like "doh?" but those who are not familiar with it would think the higher front pinning hole looks like it should be used.

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zebra50
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Response Posted - 06/06/2007 : 12:05:58

Turk

I have always had trouble with the attachment being about 1" short and needing to be pulled into place. Do you have a picture of your attachment to the chain plate? Mine is attached to a raised piece of the chain plate at its foremost point, and not on the lower holes available.

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dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 06/06/2007 : 12:37:27

In the past to get the forestay that last inch or so, I just had my heaviest crewman lean on the jib halyard from the ground ahead of the bow.

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Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2007 : 18:44:44

Here is where my furler attaches at the top of the mast. As Paul suggested, I should pin it in hole #2. Currently my furler is pinned where a Spinnaker should. Also notice that #2 is lower than #1 which is a good thing but slightly closer to the mast. I think any of these position will give you the same length becaue of the 45 degree angle.

This is the forward chainplate where the furler attaches. Now I don't know if this is a mistake, but I used to attach it to Hole D using that shiney thingy (a buckle?). But I wonder if that shiney thingy is strong enough? I think it should go in hole A?

So I think my configuration should be 2A.

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Turk
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Response Posted - 06/06/2007 : 19:04:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by zebra50
 Turk

I have always had trouble with the attachment being about 1" short and needing to be pulled into place. Do you have a picture of your attachment to the chain plate? Mine is attached to a raised piece of the chain plate at its foremost point, and not on the lower holes available.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I will be on the boat tomorrow and will take some pictures. I'm all confused now - need to see my setup to see where everything is at.

Post tomorrow!

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SEAN
Admiral

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Response Posted - 06/06/2007 : 19:16:58

yep hole 2 to hole A

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John Russell
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Response Posted - 06/06/2007 : 19:59:10

Mine's 2A.

BTW cool stuff Steve. Sure clarifies the discussion.

The "shiny thingy" is a shackle. And I wouldn't attach my forestay to it.

Edited by - John Russell on 06/06/2007 20:02:11

welshoff
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Response Posted - 06/06/2007 : 21:45:38

When lowering the mast, I loosen the backstay turnbuckle, undo one of the split backstays from the trangle by the turnbuckle, then I put tension on the mast raising system (I have the system rigged, loosely). I can then release the forestay pin with little effort. I count the number of turns on the backstay turnbuckle for ease of tuning when I am raising the mast again.

If I lowered mine frequently (I only lower the mast once/twice a year so the above method works great for me), I would put a quick release in lieu of the back stay turnbuckle. This would probably give enough "slack" to allow removal the pin on the forestay. On our rigs the back stay is redundent to the modified B&R rigging. Less rig load on the backstay than the forestay.

FYI - I keep my rigged tuned but not so tight that I have to loosen the lowers or uppers when the mast is lowered or raised.

Edited by - welshoff on 06/06/2007 22:02:15

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 06/06/2007 : 21:57:00

To be more accurate, it was a twist shackle and they are forged and pretty strong. There is one on the mainsheet to boom and the boom to vang and both of those locations can see some fairly hefty loads.

My furler has always been in the forward abeam location. I've a shackle in the aft hole with two blocks, one a fairly small block for the tack line from the drifter and the other is used for a running baby stay so that a backstay tensioner can be used.

It all depends upon what rigging is desired... if running an asymmetrical then the forward stem hole would be better suited to the tack line for it and the forestay can be moved aft.

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Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 06/07/2007 : 10:23:03

"shiney thingy"

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John Russell
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Response Posted - 06/07/2007 : 16:36:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 "shiney thingy"

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It goes with the spinny thingy at the top of my mast.

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Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/07/2007 : 21:59:54

LOL

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zebra50
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Response Posted - 06/08/2007 : 19:42:18

I am not sure where my furler attaches at the mast top, I will have to check this weekend. I use A on the chainplate and have the problem of having to use a lot of push and pull to get the furler attached. Even with the backstays loose, and the mast raising strap very tight.

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Steve Blackburn
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Canada
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Response Posted - 06/08/2007 : 20:47:07

Jay,

I think your problem (like me) is not the backstay, but rather the shrouds that are too tight.

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zebra50
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Response Posted - 06/10/2007 : 10:48:30

Steve
It may also be the attachment point at the mast top. I could find nothing in the CDI manual about that subject.

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