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Champipple
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Initially Posted - 04/13/2007 : 21:42:42

Are any of you Judges? PHRF Chairman of your local PHRF board? PRO's either club or regional? Referees?

I wouldn't mind having a Q&A feature in this forum every month or so. I have my club PRO certification and will be going for the Match Racing Referee this summer.

Having an actual US Sailing certified person address questions we might have on various topics might make for some really interesting racing forum threads.

Here are some questions for people to ponder keep in mind everyone can quote the rulebook and cut and paste it here - Oh, and some of them are trick questions.

How long do you have to fly the protest flag after you hail protest.

What must you do when windward boat hails mast abeam on a reaching leg?

True False - you are required to sail a proper course while racing.

That should be enough to get this discussion going. If you hold any of the designations I mentioned earlier then let us know - having an expert around is always a plus.

dw

D. Wolff
DPO C25 Hull 401
Currently Sailing "Champagne and Ripple" 1982 O'day 30

Chief Measurer 2002-2006
Vice-commodore 2007

Edited by - on

saribella
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Response Posted - 04/14/2007 : 06:38:14

No, I am not, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night.

Edited by - on

britinusa
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Response Posted - 04/14/2007 : 07:00:18

Thank you Maatthew!

Paul

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Turk
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Response Posted - 04/14/2007 : 07:01:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Duane Wolff
 

True False - you are required to sail a proper course while racing.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That is my problem with reading the rulebook. These kind of questions have so many ways to be interpreted that I just get frustrated learning them.

Guess this would be a good thing to try to add to our forum.

Ahhh. . . true??

Edited by - Turk on 04/14/2007 07:03:26

Champipple
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Response Posted - 04/14/2007 : 08:21:18

Matthew - one of the best things I ever did as a racer was take the PRO course.

Turk - Not going to give you the correct answers just yet, it would kill the thread. What I can say is that the rules are logically structured - though it sure as hell doesn't seem to be the case. Dave Perry has a 300 or so page book that really breaks them down for the average Joe that I recommend to just about anyone. Elvestrom used to have a smililar book out there as well .

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 04/14/2007 : 12:48:57

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">What must you do when windward boat hails mast abeam on a reaching leg?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I'll try this one, although I'm not absolutely clear on all the ins and outs. I think the mast abeam rule was eliminated from the rules.

Under the old rules, if a windward boat overtook a leeward boat from behind, the leeward boat had a right to luff up the windward boat. But, if the windward boat moved up far enough so that the helmsman of the windward boat was abeam of the mast of the leeward boat, then the windward boat could hail "mast abeam," and the leeward boat's right to luff the windward boat up to windward was curtailed.

Now the rule is, I think, that a leeward boat that is overtaken to windward has a right to luff the windward boat up to windward until the windward boat draws clear ahead. At that time, the leeward boat becomes the give way boat, and must keep clear of the windward boat.

If the overtaking boat passes the other boat to leeward, and is able to sail through the windward boat's wind shadow, the leeward boat has a right to luff the windward boat up to windward, so long as the leeward boat doesn't sail higher than it's proper course. The windward boat must keep clear, even if it must sail above it's proper course to do so.

The broad, general rule of thumb is that, on a reaching leg, a leeward boat has a right to luff a windward boat to windward, regardless of which one was the overtaking boat, until one of them draws clear ahead of the other.

In any case, a boat that has luffing rights can't just throw his helm hard over suddenly, without giving the windward boat an opportunity to keep clear. You always have to give a windward boat an opportunity to keep clear.

So, to answer your question, I would tell the skipper who hailed "mast abeam" to get an up-to-date copy of the rules.

So far as tactics are concerned, I think I'd want to overtake and pass a boat to leeward of him, if my boat was big enough or fast enough to be able to sail through his wind shadow, because you'd have a right to luff him to windward as soon as you got an overlap, although luffing him wouldn't usually be to your benefit.

If you can't pass him to leeward, then you should pass him as far to windward as possible, to prevent him from luffing you successfully. If he tries to luff you, he'll start to lose speed as he comes up from a beam reach to a close reach or a luff, and you can maintain your speed longer, and perhaps draw clear ahead of him.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 04/14/2007 : 13:39:21

Rules about Protests:
1. You must hail "protest" IMMEDIATELY upon the infraction (and nothing else).
2. You must display (not necessarily hoist)your protest flag for the duration of that race unless the protested boat does penalty turns. The flag must be all red and must be recognizable as a flag (your girlfriend's bikini top won't qualify!). Code flag B is the usual item.
3. You must notify the RC after crossing the finishing line that you have a protest against Yacht XXXX.
4. You must fill out an official protest form and file it with the Protest Committee within 1 hour of the RC boat returning to the dock.
At the protest hearing, the chairman will ask 4 questions: "Did you immediately hail "protest", did you immediately display your flag. Did the protestee see the flag, and did you display the flag for the whole race, and did you notify the RC boat?"
If the answer to any of these is in the negative, the protest is declared invalid and dismissed.

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Response Posted - 04/14/2007 : 14:00:19

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 At the protest hearing, the chairman will ask 4 questions: "Did you immediately hail "protest", did you immediately display your flag. Did the protestee see the flag, and did you display the flag for the whole race, and did you notify the RC boat?"
If the answer to any of these is in the negative, the protest is declared invalid and dismissed.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Derek,

Isn't that 5 questions?

Question...if the protestee successfully averts his eyes for the remainder of the race so as not to actually see the protest flag, will the protest will be declared invalid and be dismissed?

Edited by - on

Turk
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Response Posted - 04/14/2007 : 15:01:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Duane Wolff
 Matthew - one of the best things I ever did as a racer was take the PRO course.

Dave Perry has a 300 or so page book that really breaks them down for the average Joe that I recommend to just about anyone.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

And that's why I bought the book when you recommended it quite a few months back!

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 04/14/2007 : 16:43:56

Shucks Don, I failed 1st grade maths...

If he claims that he didn't see the flag, you know that he's either blind or a liar!

Edited by - on

Champipple
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Response Posted - 04/16/2007 : 19:15:32

Anybody else care to venture a guess or two.

Kip? BEN S? Dave Turner?

Edited by - on

SailCO26
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Response Posted - 04/17/2007 : 14:20:25

Sure, why not. Not a PRO and didnt stay at a Holiday Inn Express anytime recently. But I'll give it a shot.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">How long do you have to fly the protest flag after you hail protest. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> I'm in agreement with Derek, great response. Fly the flag until a) the offender does her 720s; or b) thru the finish line while notifying the RC of the intent to protest.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">What must you do when windward boat hails mast abeam on a reaching leg? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Also in agreement with Steve's excellent post. Hail "get a new rule book", then if she's within 2 BLs luff her up. (Should have hit her sooner anyway, if she's that close). I would like to add one thing tho that's frequently left out - you're limited in your luff in that you cannot pass head to wind. Whether she tacks or not is not relevant, but you can only go head to wind, not past. As soon as your bow crosses head to wind, you lose your rights (R13).

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">True False - you are required to sail a proper course while racing.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> I think the question is im-"properly" worded - proper course is NOT a binary situation. There are times you ARE required to sail a proper course, there are times when you do not HAVE a proper course, and there are times when you are not limited to a proper course.

Edited by - on

Champipple
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Response Posted - 04/17/2007 : 18:09:31

Hey Jim - I don't want to reply completely until this goes just a bit longer and then I'll try and throw a few more out there. The goal is to get a little dialogue going. In hindsight a strict true false probably wasn't the correct approach, however the statement itself was intentionally worded that way.

Duane

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Turk
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Response Posted - 04/17/2007 : 18:17:09

True False - you are required to sail a proper course while racing.

Except for the start, I believe you are required to sail a proper course to the finish. Your proper course may not be the same as another, but yours has to be proper for the rules to apply. If you are outside the proper course for yourself, the rules will start to work against you.

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Champipple
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Response Posted - 04/17/2007 : 20:58:01

Let's start with Proper course.

There is no obligation to sail a proper course anywhere in the rulebook. There are times when it is in your best interest, but you don't have to sail it at all times. There is an obligation to sail no higher than your proper course in 17.1 and no lower in 17.2 and within the sections of rule 18 you must sail no farther than your proper course.

So what about a reaching leg - where the leeward boat obtains overlap from clear astern and is within two of her boatlengths to a boat to windward? In this case it is in your best interest to sail the proper course but there are some varying opinions as to what the proper course may or may not be. You can always sail below your proper course - of course you can always come in last too. If you think there is more wind to the right, then your proper course could be vastly different from the guy that thinks you are full of BS (he's usually to windward of you and swearing)Proper course has to do with finishing quickly, not going in a straight line.

Other notes - the boat to leeward is the boat that determines proper course. It is also the boat length of the boat two leeward that is used in the two boat legth measurement. So if a J105 is heading downwind to leeward of you he is going to have vastly different gybe angles and can take you to China day in and day out.

If anyone has some spare time also take a look at Case 14 in the casebook.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 04/17/2007 : 21:06:04

I believe that the definition of "Proper Course" (and I don't have my rule book at home) is "the course that a boat would sail, in the absence of other boats, to finish the course as quickly as possible".
As stated earlier, there is no proper course before the starting gun.
If two boats are attempting to sail their proper courses and those courses conflict, then basic rules of the road apply.

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Champipple
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Response Posted - 04/17/2007 : 21:17:35

When to display the protest flag.

Derek probably had the most thorough answer here.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Rules about Protests:
1. You must hail "protest" IMMEDIATELY upon the infraction (and nothing else).
2. You must display (not necessarily hoist)your protest flag for the duration of that race unless the protested boat does penalty turns. The flag must be all red and must be recognizable as a flag (your girlfriend's bikini top won't qualify!). Code flag B is the usual item.
3. You must notify the RC after crossing the finishing line that you have a protest against Yacht XXXX.
4. You must fill out an official protest form and file it with the Protest Committee within 1 hour of the RC boat returning to the dock.
At the protest hearing, the chairman will ask 4 questions: "Did you immediately hail "protest", did you immediately display your flag. Did the protestee see the flag, and did you display the flag for the whole race, and did you notify the RC boat?"
If the answer to any of these is in the negative, the protest is declared invalid and dismissed.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

As Derek notes you must hail protest. You can say anything you like, but the word Protest must be used. The next thing is Immediately - the rulebook says at the first reasonable time. The casebook has determined that the first reasonable time is immediately. Most people have them taped to the backstay and just reach up and grab them. It does have to be a flag and be displayed conspicuously. There is some leeway as to the definition of flag, a square piece of red cloth usually is acceptable. Some SI's dictate Code flag b. If they do, it must be code flag b. As he noted however the red thong isn't going to work.

Here is where I disagree with Derek - You are supposed to keep your flag displayed until you are finished racing. First you cannot be absolutely positive that the turns (360 or 720 as it may apply) done are for your infraction. Secondly, regardless of the turns, many times you have to still notify the race committee.

Secondly, read your Sailing instructions - this is the most important thing out there. On my big boat crew we have one guy (usually me) who reads them front to back and it is my job to inform the crew of all the nuances of a particlar regatta. In many big boat races the committee boat wants nothing to do with you notifying them of your little spat. In most cases those are the folks you are going to talk to on the radio but there are a lot of times when they are too busy finishing boats to bother with you. If this is the case, there will be provisions in the sailing instructions.

Same thing with number 4 - the protest time will be in your sailing instructions. It isn't always an hour - Key west for example gives provisions for up to 2 hours for boats docked in certain locations where getting to the protest tent might take you that long. The default in the si's I think its 61.3 or 63.1...it's been a while, is 2 hours after the last boat finishes. Most cases it is one hour after the committee boat docks. If the time limit is not in the SI's it reverts to the default.

Most dinghy racing, by the way does not need to have a protest flag.

Incidentally - if the other guy averts his eyes so as not to see the flag that is where you get your witnesses. There are instances where he doesn't even have to know you hailed - but that is another ball of wax.

Edited by - on

SailCO26
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Response Posted - 04/18/2007 : 09:56:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Except for the start, I believe you are required to sail a proper course to the finish. Your proper course may not be the same as another, but yours has to be proper for the rules to apply. If you are outside the proper course for yourself, the rules will start to work against you.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Careful there! After the start gun you HAVE a proper course, but as stated before you're never actually required to SAIL that course. You may be limited to that course and lower (17.1) or that course and higher (17.2), and at a leeward mark you have to gybe at the proper time if you're inside/overlapped (18.4).

But you're not required to sail the exact proper course. You're free to do the ol' Lightning Tack to Oblivion if you so desire. The rules are there to limit you pushing other boats around, especially when you're overtaking them - but not defining where you can/can't sail. You're free to pick the course that you think (hope?) will be the fastest.

And yes, your proper course may NOT be the same as another boat's course, sometimes it's a boat question and sometimes it's a tactics question. Also, I think it was stated already that the RoW boat's proper course (not the burdened boat's) is what's used to determine the proper course.

Edit: Having re-read Duane's post of "In hindsight a strict true false probably wasn't the correct approach, however the statement itself was intentionally worded that way" - NOW I see what he was getting at (and I worded my first response incorrectly). The answer would be False is that you're not required to sail the course - you're LIMITED by that course.

Edited by - SailCO26 on 04/18/2007 10:09:53

SailCO26
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Response Posted - 04/18/2007 : 10:03:35

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Duane Wolff
Here is where I disagree with Derek - You are supposed to keep your flag displayed until you are finished racing. First you cannot be absolutely positive that the turns (360 or 720 as it may apply) done are for your infraction. Secondly, regardless of the turns, many times you have to still notify the race committee.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Technically this is accurate, and depending on the size of the regatta and whether we know the offender we might actually do this. But if we're reasonably certain that the 720's were for us (and whether for us or someone else, as long as he's now behind us!), we'll pull the flag back.

Unless there's damage or some gross misconduct, we're not going to drag everyone into the room and take up their valuable time. Let's get on with the post-race partying.

Edited by - on

hwy61sail
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Response Posted - 04/19/2007 : 06:08:44

It is always interesting how things that seem so simple can become complicated.

Once flown, the protest flag is to be displayed until the boat flying the flag finishes the race. The flag serves two purposes. First it confirms the protest. Second it alerts the RC that a boat will be providing notification of protest upon finishing. If you are not flying the protest flag at the finish many RC will not acknowledge the protest. However there are exceptions. Flying a protest flag is not required; on boats with a length of 6 meters or less; if the incident involved obvious damage or injury.

Mast abeam : As stated in earlier replies this is an old rule. However I disagree with the general rule of thumb that a leeward boat can luff the windward boat until they are clear ahead. If the windward boat came from clear astern, then the leeward boat has the right to luff the windward boat to the moon (provided that they give room and opportunity). If the windward boat fails to respect this action they can always be protested. On the other hand, if the leeward boat came from clear astern they are burdened with the proper course restiction. On a reaching leg it would be difficult to make a case that taking the windward boat to the moon was your proper course. When I am the windward boat and another boat obtains a leeward overlap from clear astern, I will inform them not to sail above their proper course. If they take me up, then bear down to drive into clear air, they had better return to the highest course presented while taking me up or I will protest them.

As for requirements to sail a proper course while sailing the answer is false. Sail the proper course when you can and avoid the other boats on the course when you must.

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SailCO26
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Response Posted - 04/19/2007 : 09:56:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by hwy61sail
Once flown, the protest flag is to be displayed until the boat flying the flag finishes the race.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Only if you intend to follow thru with filing the protest. If the offending boat does her 720 turns, she's exonerated herself and no protest need be filed - unless there's damage or gross misconduct. The infraction was settled on the water (where it should be), and not on shore post-race (where everyone should be second-guessing the day's tactical/strategic decisions over a cold one!

). Now if the offending boat doesn't agree that she violated a rule and/or does not exonerate herself, then the protest gets filed - which requires the protesting boat carry the flag to finish.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The flag serves two purposes. First it confirms the protest. Second it alerts the RC that a boat will be providing notification of protest upon finishing. If you are not flying the protest flag at the finish many RC will not acknowledge the protest...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">So if you protest another boat, she subsequently acknowledges her offense and does her turns, do you still file the protest after the race?

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 04/19/2007 : 16:30:12

"So if you protest another boat, she subsequently acknowledges her offense and does her turns, do you still file the protest after the race?"
No. The protested boat has exonerated herself.

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Champipple
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Response Posted - 04/19/2007 : 18:38:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 "So if you protest another boat, she subsequently acknowledges her offense and does her turns, do you still file the protest after the race?"
No. The protested boat has exonerated herself.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Mostly What He Said..

Though a lot it depends on the Sailing instructions. Usually if they (the protestee) are required to fill out penalty turns paperwork you are required to at least notify the protest committee that you are withdrawing.

Most times, when you pull your flag down, you should radio the RC boat in between races to notify them that you are withdrawing your protest b/c Jones did his turns. That allows them to make note that your flag was flying.

When a really good race committee (on the water) does their job, the committee boat knows you are protesting, and many times who you are protesting, long before you finish the race. They like to check all of that information against who notified them and who files etc. Though unless it is stated specifically in SI's you aren't really under obligation to tell the RC. You are to simply take the flag down upon finishing.

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SailCO26
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Response Posted - 04/20/2007 : 09:47:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Duane Wolff
Though unless it is stated specifically in SI's you aren't really under obligation to tell the RC. You are to simply take the flag down upon finishing.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Interesting... we've always just taken the flag down when we noticed Jones do her turns. I'll have to chat with our PRO and see what he suggests.

Thanks for the input!

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