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Confusing situation

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bbriner
Captain

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349 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/17/2007 : 20:23:37

Friday night we were running to the leeward mark. We were poled-out wing-on-wing and the boom was to port. Wind was dead astern.

Another boat was on a broad reach and overtaking us and crossing us, also with boom to port. They were on main and jib - no spinnaker.

Turns out they weren't crossing us - we were on a collision course - so they headed downwind when they got to us and ran parallel to us. We looked at each other and we hailed them and said that they must keep clear of us as they were the overtaking vessel. However we weren't sure that it was the correct call as they were technically downwind of us.

It was clear that they wanted to stay on their course and were looking for us to head up so they could continue past us. I admit we were all confused but then they gybed so we never got a chance to 'discuss it'.

I'd like to ask for some advice and clarification here... thx.

Bill B
Wind Dancer
#4036 84 SR/FK
San Francisco Bay

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 04/18/2007 : 09:10:29

Bill, if I understand the facts, you were running downwind, wing and wing, on starboard tack. You were headed for the leeward mark. The other boat was overtaking you on a broad reach, also on starboard tack and also headed generally for the same mark. The other boat wasn't able to get far enough ahead of you to cross your bow, so, when it neared your leeward side, it altered course, and ran parallel to you. The other boat indicated to you that they wanted you to bear away to your starboard, and let them continue on their original broad reach course. You refused to bear away, because they had overtaken you from clear astern, and, under the rules, the overtaking boat is always the give way boat.

I think you should have given way to them. I believe you're confused by the differences between the Navigation Rules, which govern the movements of all boats on all navigable waters, and the Yacht Racing Rules, which govern the movements of sailing yachts while they're racing. Under the Nav. Rules, an overtaking yacht is the give way yacht until it is able to draw clear ahead of the overtaken yacht. But, under the Yacht Racing Rules, the question of which yacht is the give way yacht depends on their respective tacks (either starboard or port), and which one is to windward of the other. Under the Yacht racing Rules, it is irrelevant which was the overtaking yacht. Once they had an overlap to leeward of you, and were on the same tack as you, they had a right to take you up to windward, and you had an obligation to give way.

This question raises an interesting point. In this case, both yachts were racing, and therefore governed by the Yacht Racing rules. But, if you're not racing, and you happen to sail through an ongoing yacht race, you and the racers are operating under different sets of rules. In such a situation, it's a good general practice for the non-racer to stay well clear of the racer, regardless of the Rules, because the racer might not react as you expect him to, because of the differences in the rules that you and he are sailing under.

I have another suggestion. Keep an eye out for all the yachts around you, and try to anticipate whether their course might bring them close to your yacht. If so, start thinking about which of you might have to yield to the other, so you aren't caught unprepared if they continue in the same direction and ask you to yield.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 04/18/2007 09:17:02

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 04/18/2007 : 10:22:46

He can't sail above his proper course. He has right of way but is limited. Unfortunately, his proper course sounds like it had nothing to do with yours. He can take you up until he is head to wind. If the boats were of different make or model, you will have a tough time proving he was above his proper course in a protest room. If they were both c25's you could stand a better chance.

When someone is approaching from the hind end, it is best to try and protect and keep him to windward if at all possible.

Edited by - on

bbriner
Captain

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Response Posted - 04/18/2007 : 10:46:48

Steve,
You understand the situation perfectly. Your answer beautifully explains why we were confused :) However, I did neglect one point that now seems quite relevant but didn't at first (which is why I didn't mention it) .. namely that we were the only boat that was racing - the other boat wasn't.

Now, normally, when I am just out cruising around I would ** definitely ** have headed up - I value my sweet little Catalina 25 more than I value being right :) This situation was confusing though for the reasons you mention. By the time they got close it was clear that they didn't intend to give way (especially since they headed downwind ... if they had kept their course they would have passed in front of us - closely but they would have made it). Since we were racing and the jib was poled out to windward we really did not want to head up so I got a little more 'insistent' on my rights (or what I thought were my rights) than normal. There was never any threat of collision or you can bet your last dollar that I would have avoided that.

In hindsight we should have just jibed to duck behind them as soon as we saw the course they were on. We would have lost some time but less time than waiting and possibly having to head up to avoid them if they hadn't given way. We would have avoided a confrontation too.

Edited by - on

SailCO26
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Response Posted - 04/18/2007 : 10:50:27

From what I can tell, I agree with Steve's assessment of the facts except that "they wanted you to bear away to your starboard" should read they wanted you to head up to your starboard. If Bill's on S (boom to port, dead down wind), "bear away" would be to P, not S.

I also agree that Bill should have given way, BUT...
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Under the Yacht racing Rules, it is irrelevant which was the overtaking yacht<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Not quite - if the L boat is overtaking, then the L boat had the right to take Bill to windward, but only as far as L's proper course (most likely the course she was on before they turned down to run parallel). 17.1 limits L's ability to sail no higher than her proper course, but L does have the right to come up that high and Bill should keep clear, to that point. THEN hold his ground.

As stated, that's racing. Were you not racing, then the overtaking vessel is burdened to keep clear until clear ahead. End of story.

From the other side of the coin, tactically I think L should have avoided the whole scene and headed up to pass clear astern of Bill. She would have maintained clear air, better speed, and given the differences in courses most likely have been out of range for Bill to respond with a luff. She would have kept her speed and been on her way, and been in position to cover Bill if so desired. As an overtaking vessel to windward she would have been limited in that she could not sail below her proper course, but she probably wouldn't have wanted to anywho.

By bearing off to parallel Bill attempting to pass to leeward: she lost speed, lost clear air (had Bill given way as should have happened, she would have been in disturbed air even LONGER), and put herself into a position to be covered the rest of the run. Bill probably could have put MORE of a hurt on L by heading up as requested.

Doh!

Edit: More info posted while I was replying (dam work getting in the way of fun!). "we were the only boat that was racing - the other boat wasn't." I thought boat vessels were racing. In this case,
RRS doesn't apply. Stricly an overtaking situation, and as stated "Were you not racing, then the overtaking vessel is burdened to keep clear until clear ahead." Wanker shouldn't have been blasting thru a race course anyway.

Granted, legally he can do that - but it's a courtesy thing.

Edited by - SailCO26 on 04/18/2007 10:57:00

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 04/18/2007 : 18:00:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">From what I can tell, I agree with Steve's assessment of the facts except that "they wanted you to bear away to your starboard" should read they wanted you to head up to your starboard. If Bill's on S (boom to port, dead down wind), "bear away" would be to P, not S.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> My edition of Webster's says that, when used in the context of steering a boat, "bear" means "...to change direction by something less than a turn." That was the sense in which I used it. The other boat wanted him to "...change direction to starboard by something less than a turn."

When the word is used with reference to the wind direction, I had always thought of it as you do, but having just now looked it up in Webster's, I'm learning that the word "bear" can be used to mean either an alteration of course toward the wind or away from the wind. The example they gave is, to "bear up" means "...to steer a boat to windward." To "bear down" means "...to steer a boat away from the wind." In other words, the word "bear" simply means to alter course slightly. You have to add either the word "up" or "down," to describe whether the alteration is toward the wind or away from the wind.

When we're beating to windward and I want the helmsman to alter course slightly to windward, I usually tell him to "head up." When I want him to steer slightly away from the wind, I'll say "bear off." I'm not sure those terms are technically correct either, but most helmsmen understand what I mean when I use them, and that has to count for something.

Edited by - on

SailCO26
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Response Posted - 04/19/2007 : 09:40:13

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
When we're beating to windward and I want the helmsman to alter course slightly to windward, I usually tell him to "head up." When I want him to steer slightly away from the wind, I'll say "bear off." I'm not sure those terms are technically correct either, but most helmsmen understand what I mean when I use them, and that has to count for something.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">That's the way everyone I know uses the terms, on ALL points of sail.

Edited by - on

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