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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Dream Mainsail?

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clayC
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USA
207 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/04/2007 : 17:31:54

My tired old mainsail is just about one hard gust away from turning into a large pom-pom. Kamalla is tr/SK. and we are on a large lake (Utah Lake, 96000 acres)with out a lot of racing (yet). I understand everything in this sport is a compromise in some way but if money were no object what main would you get?

Clay C

Kamalla 1980 C25 SK/TR

Edited by - on

saribella
Captain

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USA
286 Posts

Response Posted - 04/04/2007 : 17:36:10

Just received my almost new EP main today......Thanks Rick!!

Edited by - saribella on 04/04/2007 17:37:04

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5894 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2007 : 09:05:31

Clay, I suspect your question didn't get much response because others, like me, couldn't think of anything helpful to tell you. After thinking about it, it might be helpful to point out that the Catalina 25 is a masthead rig boat. The headstay on a boat with a masthead rig goes all the way to the top of the mast. As a result, the jib is, proportionately, the biggest and most powerful sail. The mainsail helps the boat point to windward, but it doesn't provide much forward drive.

By comparison, a boat with a fractional rig has a headstay that is attached to the mast at a point 2-4 feet below the top. proportionately, the jib is much smaller and less powerful, and the mainsail is much bigger and more powerful.

If your boat had a fractional rig, you'd want to spend most of your sail allowance on the best mainsail you can buy, because the mainsail is the principle driving sail on a fractional rig boat. Likewise, because the jib is the principle driving sail on your masthead rigged Catalina 25, you'll want to spend most of your sail allowance on the best jib you can buy. Although a good mainsail is important on a masthead rigged boat, it isn't the sail that you want to spend your treasure on.

My suggestion is that you have a performance cut mainsail made by one of the good brand sailmakers. I recommend North, simply because I had a set of North sails, and they were outstanding, but other sailmakers make equally fine sails. The main difference in a performance cut mainsail is that it will have the biggest roach that will fit on your rig, and a big roach represents an increase in sail area. Increased sail area means that your sails will generate more power.

When it's time to replace your jib, you can decide whether you want to race seriously or more casually. In either case, you'll probably want a deck sweeping genoa (The foot of the sail stays low all along the lee rail. On a cruising genoa, the foot of the sail is cut higher, sweeping up as it comes aft.) You'll want them made of either an excellent dacron sailcloth that won't stretch very much, or a laminated sail fabric, that has the least amount of stretch.

On my boat, both the main and genoa were performance cut North sails, and both were dacron, and when the boat and sails were new, it was the fastest C25 on the water, even against C25s with laminated racing sails. The dacron genoa was competitive in any level of racing, but, at the highest level, it undoubtedly gave up a little to a laminated genoa in either very light air or very strong winds, especially as it aged. In winds of average strength, and especially when it was new, it was fully competitive with laminated sails.

What I'm saying is that money is always an object, especially when the difference in price is great and the difference in performance is small.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 04/07/2007 09:10:44

clayC
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207 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2007 : 14:00:44

Thanks Steve,

Edited by - on

Heartbeat
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USA
161 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2007 : 15:24:20

If money was no object, what would I get? A Farr 40. No, scratch that, a Sydney 36. No, scratch that...

Oh, you mean mainsails. (Steve covered jib, so I won't go there.)

High tech materials. I like aramids (Kevlar), but dynema, or spectra are both great. At the least, get a good polyester (aka Dacron.)

I am partial to 2 full battens, 2 partial battens, a loose foot and one set of reef points. As Duane mentioned in another thread have them add a touch of area by giving the sail a nice roach. Add in the numbers, a high strength headbord, tails on every batten and reinforcements on the corners and you are all set.

If money is no object, be sure to buy it from your local loft and put at least one race with the sailmaker on board into the deal.

My $0.02 on a 2k sail.

Matt in Detroit

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3436 Posts

Response Posted - 04/10/2007 : 05:34:56

How do you tell what kind of jib or genoa one has ?

I have from the previous owner what apears to be 3 original sails and the two I have been using are getting a bit ratty looking besides I suspect they have lost their shape. (The bags for them appear to be the original catalina bags.) I am considering buying new sails by next winter.

The jib is what I have been using and I have at home what appears to be a genoa but not sure what size. It appears to be in much better shape and will probably put that on the boat this spring/summer. Both the jib and genoa are furling rigged head sails and I have an
IDC furling rig.

So...to determine the size...I measure the bottom length of the sail ?
Any idea what how length corresponds to as far as a 135 genoa or 150 ? Also...at what size do you stop calling a jib a jib and start calling it a genoa ? larger than 110 or is there some other difference as well ? (As you can tell, I am not a sail expert.)

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5894 Posts

Response Posted - 04/10/2007 : 09:23:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OLarryR
 ...at what size do you stop calling a jib a jib and start calling it a genoa?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Technically, a "jib" is a headsail that is no larger than the boat's foretriangle, which is the triangular area formed by the mast, deck and headstay. A "genoa" is a larger sail, the foot of which extends past the mast and overlaps the mainsail.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">How do you tell what kind of jib or genoa one has ?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The easy way is to look at the sailbag. Usually it has "150 Genoa" or "110 Jib" stenciled on it. (Yes, I know a 110 is an overlapping sail, but sometimes we use the word "jib" loosely, to refer to our smaller headsail.)

The hard way is to pull the sail out of the bag, spread it out, pull the foot of the sail taut, measure it, fold it, and put it back in the bag. For a 150, the length of the foot should measure about 17' 3". For a 135, the length of the foot should measure about 15' 3". For a 110, the length of the foot should measure about 12' 10".

Actually, those measurements aren't the measurements that a sailmaker would use to determine the percentage of a headsail, but, for all practical purposes, they'll answer your question. A sailmaker would spread out the sail and hold his measuring tape at the clew of the sail. Then he would extend the tape to a point along the luff of the sail where it forms a perpendicular (90 deg. angle) with the luff. That measurement is called the "LP," or, the "Luff Perpendicular."

The basic design parameters of a sailboat are expressed in terms of four measurements, "I, J, P and E." The "J" represents the distance from the tack of the jib to the leading edge of the mast, at it's base. On all C25s, that distance is 10.5'. To find the "LP" of a 135% headsail, you should add the "J" measurement (10.5') to 35% of the "J" measurement (3.675'). The sum of those two measurements is 14.175'. Therefore, the LP of a 135% headsail should measure about 14' 2".

Thanks for asking the question. I never really understood the LP, or how sailmakers made those calculations, and your question gave me a chance to figure it out.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 04/10/2007 14:10:18

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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3436 Posts

Response Posted - 04/10/2007 : 11:06:06

Steve,

Thanks for the detailed answer !. I'll check them out...maybe today and report back. Maybe the bag does have the size stenciled on it. I will check that out first, then measure.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/10/2007 : 12:51:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OLarryR
 How do you tell what kind of jib or genoa one has?

So...to determine the size...I measure the bottom length of the sail?
Any idea what how length corresponds to as far as a 135 genoa or 150?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Larry,

After determining your LP, divide it by 10.5 (J dimension) to get the %.

[url="http://www.cruisingdirect.com/LP_Measure.htm"]Measuring LP[/url]

Edited by - dlucier on 04/10/2007 12:52:51

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/10/2007 : 14:15:43

Steve,

I see tack became clew.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5894 Posts

Response Posted - 04/10/2007 : 14:23:54

Thanks Don. I was too math challenged to be able to figure out how to work the problem backwards, to get the percent, but your description makes it clear. Also, your diagram made me realize I made a couple of errors in my previous post. I corrected them, and hope I've got it right now.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3436 Posts

Response Posted - 04/10/2007 : 22:33:03

I still have to measure the sails. I can see from Don's sketch/measuring LP that I would have measured wrong. I was just going to measure along the bottom of the sail. Anyway, I do have some info...went sailing today from 430pm-900pm. Light breeze but I was patient on the return and it was a great night. By the way...except for the college team out on the Flying Scots, there was just one other sailboat...another Catalina 25 ! #5845 out of the Washington Sailing Marina. Okay ...back to the sails !

Steve, I used your info regarding the jib. The jib when the sheet is pulled tight is about 1 1/2 ft or so past the mast. So...guess it is a 110 jib. The story with the genoa at home was answered on my boat today. You said to check the bag ! Duh ! Well...the reason I had not noticed the size was because the Genoa at home is in the Main Sail bag ! But in one of the storage areas on my boat I had the jib bag. The jib bag just indicates "T" for Tall and "Jib". Inside the jib bag was the genoa bag ! It's a 150 !

Next time I am just doing maintenance and not rushing to go sailing (maybe this Thursday), I will get out the measuring tape and check out the exact length of that jib and then use the LP formula to get the percentage.
Thanks guys for the great technical info regarding the sails.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 04/10/2007 : 22:40:25

Take a look at pentax challenge cloth. It is a fairly affordable laminate cloth.

That being Said I would want the 3dL from north or the equivalent from one of the other major lofts.

I would want as big a roach as possible - just about hitting the back stay. Class rules don't say anything about roach size so you might as well go for it in that department. Just make sure the foot and Luff measure up.

Cunningham Cringle, Fully Battened for at least the top two battens, all the stripes logo an numbers.
Carbon Fiber Headboard
I would discuss reefing points with the loft building the sail. I personally think if I have to throw in a second reef then I shouldn't be out. But I also have 3 different headsails to work with as well.

Hope this helps..

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